Aer Lingus - 6

[BALHR]

The Irish government do not have to sell EI under direction from EU, it is at their discretion.

FR may or may not go back, only MOL and board of FR will know what their intentions are. MOL may decide to cut his losses, as most parties are not in his favour, yes the Irish government could raise funds to aid the state but the proceeds from the sale of EI would be a drop in the ocean towards the overall scale of the debt etc.

Furthermore, getting approval from the EU is only one hurdle crossed. Irish government have said clearly a big no not for selling their holding and I would anticipate the that staff share holding will be a similar response, as the staff would in the main not prefer FR to control the company. Further down the pecking order is Etihad, who may also not wish to sell but if FR did takeover their shareholding my be of less interest to them depending on which direction FR would take the company.

But they do need to find money to pay off their debts, so why not sell their stake and use the money to do just that and reduce the amount of austerity in the first place...

Frankly, I just see why FR is even interested in EI, since they have very little in common with each other, only that they both have large ops in DUB (which is the only reason)

The staff would also refuse since if EI became part of FR, their T&C and union rights will suffer badly

Eithad might be more willing at the right price however...

But there is nothing stopping FR from buying further shares in EI until they hold majority control by increasingly their offer to other shareholders and then doing what they want with EI (since they would effectively control the airline)

The only way that a FR takeover can finally be stopped is if IAG (who I think would lose out in a FR/EI takeover, although they will gain their LHR slots) if they bought a 30% stake so that (combined with the Government stake) would mean that a majority of the shares in EI are held by parties against any takeover by FR (55% of the shares)

[Hangar6]

BA to ISLAND

BA had a vloe relationship with EI , very close but then opted to compromise it when they took over BMI and upped the LHR DUB schedule considerably,

Now BA have reduced the LHR DUB scheule already and further reductions come S13

I think BA will revit EI relationship as current BA desire to feed LH via LHR is flawed,

TERM 1 to 5 transfer is not a happy experience
BA will phase out B737 take delivery mor LH aircraft and move some of their large number slots to LH routes inc some of those on LHR DUB

I like BA but they are brutal at SH marketing , and becasue they are so dominant in LHR maybe they lost a little focus on their feeder traffice , tried to target it themelves, but were never commited to doing it properly , eg TERM 5 should ahve been built with domestic feed in mind ...

anyway MOL bis is dead in the water , he has a real desire to closse EI as EI are so succesful at competing for LONDON traffic it kills his LGW STN LTN yelds among other routes, ...

There is a right row over BRU now that FR and EI have all those civil servants to fly to DUBLIN...

The only reason FR wants EI is to close it down, period.
At 7am EI and FR run 20-30 departrues ex DUB eavh, on identical routes DUBBHX DUB MAN DUBEDI DUBBRS or similar routes

DUBBRU DUBPAR DUBFRA DUBAMS

EI winds hands down on most of them but the real bugbear for MOL is the taxiway is crammed with green planes just as his first wave gets going , he hates wasting fuel , idling waiting for a gap to enter the queue to take off

IAG have loads slots , so when new airtcraft come they can expand, EI are about the best on shorthaul in Europe outside LCC , tightly run and profitable, high cash reserves and some great cash flow

BA need the feed and currently they are getting a few leftovers from the desert boys , LH and TK ......

EI are looking for some planes .....news on that soon

[Cian]

They will be back once the period ends, they could improve their offer towards the Irish Government, who couls use the money for a start (less austrity for the people of Ireland), if not then they can buy up all the other stock and then EI (75% owned by FR) can agree to "sell" all their assets to FR and wind itself up, then FR can set up a "new" EI (100% owned by FR) and do whatever it wants with it

Also did the EU state the Irish Government had to sell state assets as part of the bailout?

What you're suggesting is impossible under Irish company law.

You are not getting EI's slots for BA, no matter what you so desperately and singularly desire.

[Aerlingus231]

EI are looking for some planes .....news on that soon

You're teasing us you are.

I'm guessing they'll need an extra A319/A320 for the Virgin venture, and I've heard that a team are currently in Abu Dhabi looking at acquiring a new A330 [possibly 2?]. Any truth to this?

Iberia are getting rid of some A319s at the moment, there'd be plenty of time to get them painted up and sorted out before the summer season kicks off if they're acting now.

[Jamie2k9]

BA IRL-LHR

BA days serving the "island" of Ireland are numbered and some may say very numbered. EI are hammering BA at both DUB and BHD and BA will not be in Ireland for very long more. Fact 12 months from now departure boards to LHR may be very different. Another fact is that BA have too many slots at LHR now and this can be seen by the slot sitting on a number or routes.

BALHR
What are you on BA will not get EI slots and I fail to see how it would be a benefit to both carriers if EI sold to BA which won't happen unless the airline was in deep financial trouble which its not and is profitable with lots of cash in the bank.

You're teasing us you are.

I'm guessing they'll need an extra A319/A320 for the Virgin venture, and I've heard that a team are currently in Abu Dhabi looking at acquiring a new A330 [possibly 2?]. Any truth to this?

Iberia are getting rid of some A319s at the moment, there'd be plenty of time to get them painted up and sorted out before the summer season kicks off if they're acting now.

Certain carrier in the UAE withdrawn some A330's very soon..

Short Haul they will have to place an order for something within 12-18 months (I expect Airbus NEO) but IB A319 would be good for short term.

[Aerlingus231]

Certain carrier in the UAE withdrawn some A330's very soon..

Short Haul they will have to place an order for something within 12-18 months (I expect Airbus NEO) but IB A319 would be good for short term.

I understand that EK are withdrawing some of their A330s from service and returning them to their lessors, but don't they use RR engines which wouldn't fit in very well with EI's CF6-8 engines from GE. Also hear that the interiors of the EK A330s are in pretty bad nick.

I expect we'll see an order for the NEO fairly soon, or an agreement signed with a leasing company. I'm not sure what the time at the minute is from order to delivery for the NEO, but I'd say it must be a fair bit away.

IB indeed could work with some short 2-4 year leases, all their A319's are leased as far as I know and use CFM 56-5B4 engines and the A319 would be the ideal bird to open up some routes, or just improve yields on current thin routes.

[Cian]

Mismatched engines wouldn't be a killer if just for two summer seasons, having an A333 with RR engines is a lot better for fleet commonality than leasing a Tristar or a MD11 were when they had those on lease.

I'd imagine they'd put their own interior in to them, they did this for the MD11 from memory - albeit very rusty memory seeing as how long ago that was!

[SWBKCB]

Another fact is that BA have too many slots at LHR now and this can be seen by the slot sitting on a number or routes.

Not exactly "too many" - just a mis-match between slots and the right fleet mix.

[Hangar6]

EI Fleet

EI now are down one SH A/c as the one they own is still for sale so its to go red , plus the two 320 s that were due back to leaser will be kept after 319x2 arrive.so need SH a/c and are looking hard

diff engines no issue , donkeys years of ecpertise in EI on all engines

LH a/c also an issue so short term seeking LH and SH hulls

possible impact on UK regional routes short term as seeking to get eir to operate current 320 routes whilst a/c sought, EIR getting new ATRs this Q1

lots happening in EI at moment , JFK Terminal switch , VS , LHR terminal move, WIFI , EIR , operating fleet will increae and DUBLIN airport is BOOMING this summer , as THE GATHERING get going , ME carriers ramp up services , TK also

Pilots signed up for VS ops no issue , over subscribed ..

Some other contracts being sought in DUB for cargo passenger handling for TERM 2 , CBP ramping up ,

AF Cityjet cutting a bit

and NO CHANCE FR will have any say in EI , in any form so dream on and IAG with EI slots......BA have no need of any more slots they are squatting all over the place and its actually causing their operation to suffer, especially on LHRDUB ....

EI 2012 in profit .....again....my only wee gripe with EI is they are a wee bit conservative, everyone other than LCC are struggling on EUR SHaul, oppurtunities being missed .

[Aerlingus231]

Pilots signed up for VS ops no issue , over subscribed ..

Are these current EI pilots (thought they were very short of pilots at the moment?), the LGW pilots, or just new hires being taken on?

Looks like Storm McGinley are advertising for EI CC for bases in MAN, LHR and EDI, so I take it we'll see the LGW base being transformed to a sort of LON base.

Is it still the case that these flights for VS are to be operated using DUB based pilots and aircraft, or will a base be set up at LHR for this venture?

[Hangar6]

PILOTS EI

Dub PILOTS volunteered to transfer to LHR base

EI have 20 cadets due back APRIL , have taken nearly 100 inc 20 cadets on board in last 2 years, RHS from a wide variety of airlines , of course lost a few too ,retirement and to Desert

But yes I imagine cadet recruitment will happen this year plus more DE to RHS will continue , even non TR Capts are coming thru the process.

LHR will be a busy place come end MARCH ,

[Aerlingus231]

What'd be the attraction for operating out of LHR instead of DUB for those pilots? Surely the lack of routes, only 3, and the short intensive nature of those routes, flying in and out of the LON TMA every day couldn't have been that much of a draw, yet it was oversubscribed? Early upgrade to skipper for some FO's maybe?

[Hangar6]

HMCR

lots UK pilots around IRELAND in EI

tax situation is kinder I am told

Nice summers in SE UK

nearer their French holiday homes and SKI Chalets

LHR ORK DUB BHD SNN ABZ MAN EDI , yes like a bus route but lots sector pay

[Aerlingus231]

Extra pay from sector pay, or a signing bonus to go there? Aren't the UK based pilots in LGW and BHD payed at a lower rates than those in the ROI?

I guess if they're from the UK though that'd be a fairly big draw. Is being nearer France that much of a deal, I mean they'd have staff travel out of DUB anyway right?

I also thought that there was a large demand from Pilots in the LGW base to transfer to DUB, I take it that that information is incorrect if there was this big a demand to move to the UK.

[EI-BUD]

Frankly, I just see why FR is even interested in EI, since they have very
little in common with each other, only that they both have large ops in DUB
(which is the only reason)

BALHR maybe from a culture point of view very little in common, I assume that is what you mean? EI and FR networks overlap massively. FR is on a large proportion of EI routes all across Ireland to UK and Europe and where is no competiton between airport pairs, FR has an alternative serivce that competes with EI for passengers e.g. CRL/BRU, BVA/CDG, BGY/LIN-MXP, CIO/FCO, LHR/LGW- STN- LTN etc..... list goes on.

EI have a great market segment ex ROI for themselves, are competitive on price and are winning most markets, UK destinations are a prime example EI and EIR collective has seen FR back off in many areas and watch this space. BRS FR retreating to x2 daily, ABZ FR withdrawl, EI are stepping up BHX to offer maximum connectivity via DUB and in the process offer the customer highest convenience and frequency.

FR are not happy with their returns on Ireland UK routes and in many cases the 738 is simply not cost effective to make they work, afterall FR is reliant on point to point. EI Is not solely reliant on this.

FR want to purchase Aer Lingus for the following reasons and lets be very clear about it:
1. Gain Control of Irish Aviation and give 2 fingers to Dublin Airport authority, this must be MOLs greatest wish,
2. Bring EI and FR together so that he can disable a very formiddable competitor, EI have developed a good approach to making the business work and it is a great example of a small company being very capable to competing and winning the battle against a dominant giant company. Routes like Stockholm and Verona have worked splendidly for EI and FR have already withdrawn Stockholm, thanks to EIs ability to feed into T/A they can develop routes without fear of FR.
3. Gain a foothold onto T/A business using a carrier who has made a profitable business across the Atlantic, not many have.

Make no mistake MOL may say that he would run EI as the current brand that it is, but he will overturn everything for competitive advantage including any promises that he may make in the process of purchasing the company, and any legal issues that arise of court cases as a result, he will see the cost as an investment into highlighting FRs low fares blah blah blah. He will never accept the Unions and that will be the achilles heel for the EI brand if the union attempted to challenge him should he gain control. he simply would close it down and bring FR in, cut back, have the market sewn up, and then lever higher prices and dictate to Dublin Airport what goes on...

EI-BUD

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "And frankly, I haven’t even got to Qatar Airways, Eithad and Emirates in all of this"

Please don't!

[MCDU2]

I would say the LHR base will go very junior in the LHS. Not junior by a LCC standard but by the normal 10-12 years to command in AL. The money on offer was crap compared to the ROI even taking into account the different tax regimes. Could be even wider as the ROI pay freeze ends this March and even at worse we will be expecting our 10% cut back. Most people I know who bid were going for the P1 time as it gives them an out should the proverbial hit the fan in a couple of years time.

I can assure you there are very few (if any) ski chalet owners that will be transferring to LHR.

[dublinaviator]

Originally Posted by Alt Crz Green

EI are the only irish airline offering secure employment with decent conditions.

I know plenty of people working for Ryanair who have secure employment and excellent conditions, so I call bullsh*t on this.

[Aerlingus231]

Reporter - Mayday Mayday Part 2 - English version

Watch this and you'll get an idea of how 'secure' employment is for the 70% of Ryanair pilots that work on a Brookfield contract. And Terms and conditions are better at EI even in comparison to the 30% of FR pilots that are actually employed by Ryanair.

[dublinaviator]

Originally Posted by Aerlingus231

Watch this and you'll get an idea of how 'secure' employment is for the 70% of Ryanair pilots that work on a Brookfield contract. And Terms and conditions are better at EI even in comparison to the 30% of FR pilots that are actually employed by Ryanair.

Where did Alt Crz Green specify pilots? He made a sweeping statement that Aer Lingus is "the only irish airline offering secure employment with decent conditions".