Aer Lingus - 6

[840]

Normally, I'd agree, but the DAA strike throws a spanner in the works. Even if EI management come to an agreement, there may still be no aircraft flying at that time.

[stab3.5up]

The DAA will be the same. All talk and no strike. The Irish love nothing more than talking about going out on stike or as they say at DUB going down to the roundabout when it comes to ah sure now lads it pishing down outside are yah sure bout this. Ah well now pat when you put it like that maybe theressomthin in what them lads are offering sure why dont go see what they got to say and we can get a brekfast roll on the there

[jonjoe]

guess its not your pension on the line then……………..

[EI-BUD]

It's gas talking about strikes and Dublin Airport. I recall in 1998 when FR baggage handlers went on strike and the whole place went with them, but ironically the only flights taking off were, yes you guess it, Ryanair's!!!!

[EI-A330-300]

guess its not your pension on the line then……………..

However much the 4 hour stoppage costs Aer Lingus is coming out of the pensions anyway so its the staff losing money for themselves.

[airbourne]

I have 3 EI flights coming up over the next 4 months.

I checked the flights today. 2 of them were more expensive and 1 was the same price. These were supposedly SALE flights!

[Jamie2k9]

No such things as sales, it's just effective marking. EI are no different to other airlines. They all have x seats to fill and y operating costs.

All airlines raise prices and drop them back for a sale or they match their competitors prices.

[Jack1985]

However much the 4 hour stoppage costs Aer Lingus is coming out of the pensions anyway so its the staff losing money for themselves

What kind of a statement is that? So basically you're saying staff should roll over and let themselves be screwed by a pension fund? They signed up to x and x can no longer be delivered through no fault of there own - They are fully right to request better and an IR dispute is the only way of getting both managements to sort it out - As it will be, before any planned strike goes ahead.

[EI-A330-300]

What kind of a statement is that? So basically you're saying staff should roll over and let themselves be screwed by a pension fund? They signed up to x and x can no longer be delivered through no fault of there own - They are fully right to request better and an IR dispute is the only way of getting both managements to sort it out - As it will be, before any planned strike goes ahead.

And it's not the airlines fault either who don't have to give a penny but are giving 140 million.

SIPTU are forcing similar cuts to their members but won't on DAA/EI staff, will they be supportive of their own strike, will the fund some of the hole in their pension. It's double standards by the union.

I agree it will be sorted out but going on strike is just as damaging to staff as the airline and doesn't achieve anything.

[Jack1985]

And it's not the airlines fault either who don't have to give a penny but are giving 140 million.

SIPTU are forcing similar cuts to their members but won't on DAA/EI staff, will they be supportive of their own strike, will the fund some of the hole in their pension. It's double standards by the union.

I agree it will be sorted out but going on strike is just as damaging to staff as the airline and doesn't achieve anything.

The trustees who oversee the Irish Airlines Superannuation Scheme (IASS) represent the pension funders (Aer Lingus/DAA) and they thus failed, however both funding parties did nothing about the growing deficit, in 2007 Aer Lingus poured plus 100m into it and were back to square one, the DAA has a lot more to contribute, Aer Lingus also do but in a lesser extent to the DAA. The fact both funding parties allowed the deficit to grow is in employees view, stunning - at the same time they were both trying to cut costs and allowing a white elephant to grow. Not there fault what planet are you living on?

Whatever about the union, the employees they represent for EI/DAA are focused on there issue - regardless of the given double standard.

Strikes are damaging, but the only way for both management to get of there asses and sort this out. The contrary which is to supposedly continue mitigation has failed repeatedly, and time and time and time again. ALL have tried this for months on end with NO result! Enough is enough, they have to act now.

[Una Due Tfc]

The fault lies far more with the DAA, and if we are being specific, the old AER RIANTA. And former SR TECHNICS/TEAM AER LINGUS staff are in that scheme too

[bannercounty]

Why not go back to Jim Larkin

[Angry Rebel]

Jack you are wrong on that last one. The trustees are 100% independent and are responsible only to the scheme members. Under trust law the trustees must act in the best interest of the beneficiaries. In fact if you ask many in DAA/EI management about the trustees you will get a rant so don't pretend the are employer puppets!

http://www.pensionsboard.ie/en/LifeC...9.shortcut.pdf

In addition, when people bladder on about solutions, don't forget that there have been 3/4 different proposals over the last 3 years and none have been taken up. Management and trustees have both tried to find a solution but members/unions did not take up the offers. One of the solutions would have actually fixed the whole problem but the speed of (in)action was such that the market opportunity passed (don't forget a lot of this is due to changes in markets in the form of falling interest rates and investment returns not something the members or employers are doing differently or failing to do).

One issue not all that prominent in all of this has been the potential disconnect between the unions and the members. On this occasion members have voted and you can't argue with that, but at various points over the last few years the unions have definitely NOT acted in their members best interest. Those chickens have yet to come home to roost.

[Jack1985]

Quick question who funds the pension?

[Sober Lark]

The pension is a big mistake which is compounded by those who think an opportunity for deficit reduction is a strike.

[ayroplain]

One issue not all that prominent in all of this has been the potential disconnect between the unions and the members. On this occasion members have voted and you can't argue with that, but at various points over the last few years the unions have definitely NOT acted in their members best interest. Those chickens have yet to come home to roost

Not sure whether this was in relation to Aer Lingus or DAA but I read somewhere recently that the staff themselves don't really want to strike but, when the ballot was set, there was no choice on the ballot paper to NOT strike, only a choice between two forms of industrial action up to strike. Anyone know enough to confirm or deny?

I also recall reading that EI:

1. was of the opinion that this dispute was technically not a "trade dispute" and would be looking into seeking an injunction to stop a strike taking place. I wonder if they'll go down that road.

2. are not legally bound to make any further contribution

I'm surprised, too, that, given the seriousness of this situation which could escalate quickly, the Transport Minister has not done anything - or maybe I shouldn't be surprised.

[Angry Rebel]

Originally Posted by Jack1985

Quick question who funds the pension?

You know the answer but I'll play along. It's the same people who fund it in nearly every pension scheme in the world...the employers and the employees. That doesn't create some sort of nefarious conspiracy, it's how pensions work.

@ayroplain - yes EI have had multiple legal opinions to the effect that it's a DC not DB scheme and they are not obliged to put anymore into it. Unfortunately the unions have conflicting advice. Gotta love the lawyers eh?! In a way that is the nub of the issue: EI have legal advice saying you don't owe anything, so if they put money into the scheme shareholders have a legitimate grievance that "their" money is being put into something which doesn't directly improve shareholder returns. That is presumably why management feel they can delivery €140m but no more.

[Jack1985]

employers and the employees

Both employer's allowed white elephant to grow despite knowing since the early 2000's of the growing deficit.

who bears responsibility? I'll play along too.

[Jack1985]

Aer Lingus has issued an interim alert to all staff which informs that the company will be stopping productivity payments next month unless the strike is called off.

I'm sorry but we are constantly reminded by Aer Lingus' PR teams how good employees are, how caring they are and even the motto Great Care. Great Fare, when you treat employee's like this don't expect compromise - and people have said on this forum strikes achieve nothing, what do you say to same company treating there staff like this? Talk about ramping up tensions.

[racedo]

It is expected that the net proceeds of the Offer received by the Comany will be used primarily to finance the expansion and replacement of Aer Lingusí short-haul and long-haul fleet. A one-off pension contribution in 2006 of up to approximately €104 million is also expected to be made by the Company.

The above quote is taken from IPO prospectus dated 12/09/2006 issued by Aer Lingus and its a legal document that persuaded Initial Investors to invest.
Any who still hold Initial shares are free to take an action based on investing where management did not full disclose a future pension liability.

The IPO raised approximately €501 Million Gross.

Now adding in the €140 M to the €104 M already given plus whatever is agreed with Pilots Union basically will mean that Aer Lingus will have contributed 50% of the IPO proceeds to the Pension fund.

Any pension fund contribution will need to be approved by shareholders which is where it could get complicated very quickly.

As Irish Govt hold 25% and tend not to vote then 38% of total shareholders may scupper the deal.

The question Shareholders will ask is what are we getting by giving away €140M owned by us, because it is owned by them and they may feel that given that away is not benefitting them at all.