Virgin Atlantic
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As I and others have said above, the Virgin "leisure" and beach fleets appear to have good yields, I suspect the B744 may be too big for MAN-LAS, hence the discounting. BMI ran a twice weekly A332 which I suspect would be a better fit.
Re Virgn and tatty interiors :
The first Virgin flight I ever took was LHR-LAX in early 1996. Aircraft was a 747-400 (G-VHOT) only about 18 months old at the time. I couldn't believe how the interior had got full of worn and broken fittings, seats etc in such a short length of time. I'd actually never seen an aircraft interior like it before. I still recall the IFE controls (novelty at the time) were notably worn through. And this was in Upper Class ! I presumed that nobody from maintenance had replaced a single cabin fitting since it was built.
Looks like not a lot has changed.
The first Virgin flight I ever took was LHR-LAX in early 1996. Aircraft was a 747-400 (G-VHOT) only about 18 months old at the time. I couldn't believe how the interior had got full of worn and broken fittings, seats etc in such a short length of time. I'd actually never seen an aircraft interior like it before. I still recall the IFE controls (novelty at the time) were notably worn through. And this was in Upper Class ! I presumed that nobody from maintenance had replaced a single cabin fitting since it was built.
Looks like not a lot has changed.
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Alliance?
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VS is to launch a seasonal 4 weekly service to YVR next summer. SFO also increases from 7 to 10 weekly (presumably using the same slot pair).
Virgin Atlantic's hat in the ring to buy BMI - Telegraph
Virgin Atlantic's hat in the ring to buy BMI - Telegraph
Join Date: Aug 2002
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We haven’t done formal due diligence yet; neither have they. That will start now. The big issue for IAG is how they are going to get this past the regulators because, on 60pc of the routes that BA and BMI fly together, there will be no competition. A lot of business people and travellers in the regions will be concerned. About 1.6m passengers every year connect through Heathrow just from Aberdeen, Manchester and Edinburgh and they will no longer have a choice if British Airways is successful because the only carrier on the route will be British Airways.”
Routes with BA and BD head to head :
LHR-ABZ
LHR-EDI
LHR-MAN
LHR-BSL ( LX really, was moved from LCY and given to BD )
LHR-TXL ( LH route )
LHR-VIE ( OS really, slots given up on LH buy out of OS ) Existing OS competition
LHR-CAI : Strong competition from Egyptair on new B777-300ERs
LHR-DMM : Strong competition from Saudia
LHR-JED
LHR-RUH
Imagine Virgin trying to take over BMI. I mean just think about the balance sheet. Does the world have enough red ink?
Think of Singapore's reaction as more of their investment in VS disappears. Think of the stunning success of Virgin Express.
Think of BD in T1 and VS in T3.
Who is this man trying to fool?
This is Pan Am / National territory. There are NO synergies. Virgin's big new idea is 4 weekly against Air Canada and BA on LHR-YVR. FOUR WEEKLY?
Utter tosh, all mouth no trousers. VS are getting a reputation for spin before action every time, no wonder their advertising is set in the 80s!
Skipness - you reckon Virgin are talking rubbish. I reckon they are too. Virgin may also know they are talking rubbish. DLH may have been very happy to sell bmi to Virgin as long as Virgin could actually come up with the money. Virgin also know that barring unforeseen events, the sale of bmi to IAG by Lufthansa is pretty much a done deal, and there's almost nothing Virgin can do to stop a formal contract being signed.
The only thing now remaining for Virgin to do, is to put media pressure on the CAA or the EU to show they are acting in the interest of the consumer and make IAG surrender slots or in some other way make it harder for IAG to compete against Virgin.
It's spin, the whole spin and nothing but the spin and the main parties know it. Joe Smith reading some fluff article in the paper doesn't know where spin merges into reality, wants to know "the Govt will do something" and hence the possibility of BA being required to lease out some extra slots.
The accountants and lawyers have done much of the heavy lifting in the transaction. Now it's time to let the PR people and lobbyists have their turn. Cringeworthy but it'll all blow over in a few days
The only thing now remaining for Virgin to do, is to put media pressure on the CAA or the EU to show they are acting in the interest of the consumer and make IAG surrender slots or in some other way make it harder for IAG to compete against Virgin.
It's spin, the whole spin and nothing but the spin and the main parties know it. Joe Smith reading some fluff article in the paper doesn't know where spin merges into reality, wants to know "the Govt will do something" and hence the possibility of BA being required to lease out some extra slots.
The accountants and lawyers have done much of the heavy lifting in the transaction. Now it's time to let the PR people and lobbyists have their turn. Cringeworthy but it'll all blow over in a few days
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I also recollect Branson talking in the early 2000s of them operating 5 daily LHR-MAN services i.e. prior to bmi competing with BA. Granted that Virgin Trains is dumping capacity between Manchester and London in a way that wouldn't be allowed in the aviation industry, why would Branson want to compete with himself?
Even allowing for them relying on connecting passengers they hardly have the network of services to allow them to acheive a critical mass to make this domestic service worthwhile.
i've also found this: Branson's 2006 bid for bmi with an interesting statement regarding LHR-MAN
Even allowing for them relying on connecting passengers they hardly have the network of services to allow them to acheive a critical mass to make this domestic service worthwhile.
i've also found this: Branson's 2006 bid for bmi with an interesting statement regarding LHR-MAN
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I also recollect Branson talking in the early 2000s of them operating 5 daily LHR-MAN services
In all seriousness though, they have added 2 A330-300s to the beach fleet this year and are claiming the following :
The great Virgin A330 debacle 2011
G-VSXY and G-VKSS delivered without Upper Class due massive cock up, into service on MAN / LGW / GLA-MCO.
G-VLUV and G-VGEM not delivered and currently on last minute lease to Air China, both are expected back summer 2012.
G-VINE stored all white for the whole summer, just delivered to LGW.
They have five more due next summer. So Virgin announce seven more flights per week out of LHR and yet are expecting to take delivery of EIGHT new A330s before the next twelve months are out?
Factor in ONE B744 at at time out of commision for refit and the fact that all the A343s that are going have gone, and things clearly are not adding up.
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I thought that they weren't so much as
but more due to the fact that most people going on these sorts of holidays to Florida weren't going Upper Class leaving some of the aircraft empty?
without Upper Class due massive cock up
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but more due to the fact that most people going on these sorts of holidays to Florida weren't going Upper Class leaving some of the aircraft empty?
Have tried for 2 next May on days the B744 operates; full.
Burning BA miles instead and taking the 207/6 to MIA via LHR in F.
VS premium seats out of MAN are just as rare to get as are the economy seats.
4 x a week LHR-YVR against BA & AC ? They would probably have more success on MAN-YVR where they would only be against Air Transat.
The MAN-YVR has always been massive right back to the Wardair days. Try getting a seat on TS or the previous TCX seasonal services - always full.(inc premium)
4 x a week LHR-YVR against BA & AC ? They would probably have more success on MAN-YVR where they would only be against Air Transat.
The MAN-YVR has always been massive right back to the Wardair days. Try getting a seat on TS or the previous TCX seasonal services - always full.(inc premium)
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but more due to the fact that most people going on these sorts of holidays to Florida weren't going Upper Class leaving some of the aircraft empty?
Actually I think VS do really well out of LGW, LHR, MAN and GLA and I think if they raised their game they could do better and succeed where BMI could not. However again like BMI, they're obsessed with LHR where frankly, they're only getting less competitive.
In recent times I've been on BA LHR-YVR, and have noticed the extent to which my seatmates were (like me) business rather than VFR travellers. Mining industry, film industry, ocean shipping, computers. A completely different market. I agree Virgin are not going to do well in this market with 4 times a week. Times when this worked for business travellers have gone, especially when all your competitors are daily (I hear BA are going up to double daily nonstop to YVR).
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Disagree re LHR/YVR the loads should be good, every time I have flown BA premium it has always been full and the loads in Club and economy make me think they are little different.
Having made a number of transatlantic crossings on VS and BA in the last couple of years give me VS for a better in flight service but BA for its quality of meals.
Good luck VS and I am sure I will be booking with you soon.
Having made a number of transatlantic crossings on VS and BA in the last couple of years give me VS for a better in flight service but BA for its quality of meals.
Good luck VS and I am sure I will be booking with you soon.
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Virgin to long haul is really just what BD was to short haul. BD went up against BA offering a different (superior) service and managed to create some healthy competition (full A321 mostly business class at one point on domestic routes). Unfortunately for BD, low cost carriers prevented them from keeping the yields that were available on shorthaul and with the high cost base (in short) ended up chipping away at the network and starting dropping routes here and there and becoming obsessed with LHR / midhaul which although had a sound enough business plan didnt get the yields in from connecting passengers to really work.
Virgin are similar with long haul basically competing directly with BA offering a different service and again cherry picking and chipping away at routes till they get the balance of frequency and being able to fill planes / have yields to make money. The difference is Virgin dont have low cost carrier competition and have managed to ride out the storm and so far have kept their place.
The way I see them going forward is to revamp their product keep it innovative and fresh (no room for tatty interiors). They need to offer something different to BA more younger / trendier. They should also try and build up leisure from the regions where BA do not compete. This would give BA some healthy competition on major LHR routes which would in turn keep them investing in their own products but still give us a major national carrier that will allow our ecomnomy to grow. There is no sense in Virgin just doubling up more routes out of LHR to the same places already served by BA and they dont have the cash to subsidise the new routes in Asia that BA want to start up.
Virgin needs to build on what it is good at and make it a different experience to other carriers. I see them even joining Skyteam or possible Start or at least linking better with Virgin America /Australia to provide seamless onwards connections in the US/AUS with the same product style.
Virgin are similar with long haul basically competing directly with BA offering a different service and again cherry picking and chipping away at routes till they get the balance of frequency and being able to fill planes / have yields to make money. The difference is Virgin dont have low cost carrier competition and have managed to ride out the storm and so far have kept their place.
The way I see them going forward is to revamp their product keep it innovative and fresh (no room for tatty interiors). They need to offer something different to BA more younger / trendier. They should also try and build up leisure from the regions where BA do not compete. This would give BA some healthy competition on major LHR routes which would in turn keep them investing in their own products but still give us a major national carrier that will allow our ecomnomy to grow. There is no sense in Virgin just doubling up more routes out of LHR to the same places already served by BA and they dont have the cash to subsidise the new routes in Asia that BA want to start up.
Virgin needs to build on what it is good at and make it a different experience to other carriers. I see them even joining Skyteam or possible Start or at least linking better with Virgin America /Australia to provide seamless onwards connections in the US/AUS with the same product style.
Last edited by midland02; 8th Nov 2011 at 09:28.
Virgin are notorious for throwing their toys out the pram every time BA 'do' something. They complain of unfair tactics etc etc. This has been going on for years. They feel it's a 'David and Goliath' situation and usually get nowhere. As will be the case with BMI. LH have sold it to IAG and that will be that!
Virgin need to get their own house in order instead of BA bashing. Instead of spending money painting anti BA slogans on aircraft as they did in the past, they should be spending it on refurbishing their 744's, sort out what they will be doing with the 343's, getting their 343's up to standard.
Virgin need to get their own house in order instead of BA bashing. Instead of spending money painting anti BA slogans on aircraft as they did in the past, they should be spending it on refurbishing their 744's, sort out what they will be doing with the 343's, getting their 343's up to standard.