DURHAM TEES VALLEY AIRPORT - 5
DTVAirport - few questions that I hope you can help with
- I calculated the load factor based on a F70 having 80 seats (even if the middle seat is sometimes left empty in business class). You mentioned it has only 79 seats - what happens to the missing seat ? Happy to change the load factors in my analysis if I've made a mistake. If it really is 79 seats, this should make the load factor look a little better.
- Are the E190s being used to replace the F100s or the F70s, both in the short term and also in the long term ? Could the F70s perhaps be left to run for another 5 years (or even longer) ? Will the F70 replacement definitely be E190s or is a 70-seater order a credible option ?
- I know KLM prefer to do a minimum of triple daily for any route - but is it possible that DTV might go from a triple daily F70 to a en E190 but double daily similiar to Manston ? Yes I know Saturday has only 2 rotations at the moment...
- I calculated the load factor based on a F70 having 80 seats (even if the middle seat is sometimes left empty in business class). You mentioned it has only 79 seats - what happens to the missing seat ? Happy to change the load factors in my analysis if I've made a mistake. If it really is 79 seats, this should make the load factor look a little better.
- Are the E190s being used to replace the F100s or the F70s, both in the short term and also in the long term ? Could the F70s perhaps be left to run for another 5 years (or even longer) ? Will the F70 replacement definitely be E190s or is a 70-seater order a credible option ?
- I know KLM prefer to do a minimum of triple daily for any route - but is it possible that DTV might go from a triple daily F70 to a en E190 but double daily similiar to Manston ? Yes I know Saturday has only 2 rotations at the moment...
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The HAMBURG charter figures must be the Eastern weekly charter NCL - DTV - HAMBURG operation. NCL share of the charter was 124 pax.
Last edited by Jamesair; 29th Sep 2013 at 21:57.
Forgive me if there's been a part 2 of the Pack and Go theme, but I thought the marketing campaign was focussed around September last year covering London, Bristol, Birmingham, Manchester, Newcastle and Scotland.
Admittedly smaller KLM airports like Norwich, Humberside, DTV and Cardiff were rather left out to maximise effectiveness against marketing spend
Jamesair - please forgive the ignorance but who's paying Eastern for the Hamburg charter ?
Admittedly smaller KLM airports like Norwich, Humberside, DTV and Cardiff were rather left out to maximise effectiveness against marketing spend
Jamesair - please forgive the ignorance but who's paying Eastern for the Hamburg charter ?
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 29th Sep 2013 at 23:08.
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davidjohnson6 - I used Wikipedia to look up the number of seats on a F70, not sure what KLM's actual configuration is but it will be around that mark. The F100s have gone already, replaced by the existing E190s, seems KLM Cityhopper are looking to go to a single aircraft type. I did think they might have bought E170s.
Not sure who's behind the Eastern Hamburg charters, but I've heard (and I think it's been mentioned on here previously) that they're not really of much benefit as the passengers on the flights would otherwise have been on the ABZ and/or AMS, so it's just an extra landing fee.
Not sure who's behind the Eastern Hamburg charters, but I've heard (and I think it's been mentioned on here previously) that they're not really of much benefit as the passengers on the flights would otherwise have been on the ABZ and/or AMS, so it's just an extra landing fee.
Given the increased capacity just up the road where two of the most powerful airlines in Europe are competing, looks like AMS is doing really well! Supports the theory previously posted that the KLM market out of MME is quite a specific one.
Also, if there are 5 Saturdays in 2013, compared to 2012 has the impact of fewer flights been taken into account?
Been reported previously that the Eastern HAM flights were ship crews, so don't know what the impact on other flights is - don't recall seeing any thing posted.
Also, if there are 5 Saturdays in 2013, compared to 2012 has the impact of fewer flights been taken into account?
Been reported previously that the Eastern HAM flights were ship crews, so don't know what the impact on other flights is - don't recall seeing any thing posted.
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KLM
David...I think I can shed some light on the questions.
KLM's F70s have 80 seats, so I think your calculation is correct.
KLM has just ordered another 6 E190s to replace 7 F70s. This will reduce the F70 numbers to 19 in the fleet. Despite this, there is no official word yet on what the long term F70 replacement will be. If the answer was E190s, I think they would be ordered now - so I'm sure they're figuring out what could really replace an F70. This gives DTVA hope that something more akin to our needs will end up on our route - but I think that is around 4-5 years away yet. The remaining F70s will have a cabin upgrade which suggests no immediate decision is likely on the final 19.
The previous 22 E190s ordered were bought to replace the F100s which have now all left the fleet.
With regard to Saturdays and Sundays, it was only recently that Saturdays had 3 locations and Sundays had 2 as Saturdays 1539/Sundays 1530 was the rotation that was dropped before being reinstigated. Can't remember when that change happened but that may also skew the figures...
With the figures now being so low...such minor details as this have a material effect on the look and feel of the whole thing....
KLM's F70s have 80 seats, so I think your calculation is correct.
KLM has just ordered another 6 E190s to replace 7 F70s. This will reduce the F70 numbers to 19 in the fleet. Despite this, there is no official word yet on what the long term F70 replacement will be. If the answer was E190s, I think they would be ordered now - so I'm sure they're figuring out what could really replace an F70. This gives DTVA hope that something more akin to our needs will end up on our route - but I think that is around 4-5 years away yet. The remaining F70s will have a cabin upgrade which suggests no immediate decision is likely on the final 19.
The previous 22 E190s ordered were bought to replace the F100s which have now all left the fleet.
With regard to Saturdays and Sundays, it was only recently that Saturdays had 3 locations and Sundays had 2 as Saturdays 1539/Sundays 1530 was the rotation that was dropped before being reinstigated. Can't remember when that change happened but that may also skew the figures...
With the figures now being so low...such minor details as this have a material effect on the look and feel of the whole thing....
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Excellent analysis. I fly from MME around once a fortnight and I choose it because it is only 5 minutes in a taxi from my house rather than drive the 45 minutes to NCL and mess around with parking. I like the fact that security is quick and the lounge is near the departure gate.
I would say on average the first three rows of an F70 are allocated to Business Class meaning 74 seats per flight and a 66% load factor. At first glance this seems on the low side low to me as my recent experience is that flights are pretty full. I tend to fly out late Sunday or on early mornings Mon/Tues/Weds and fly back late on Wed/Thurs/Fri so this means that there must be some pretty empty flights at other points during the week. This s probably why you can fly to AMS on a Friday and back on Sunday (choice of excellent flight times) for only £94 return. I am doing this in a couple of weeks so will report back then.
I will also have a stab at calculating the KLM load factors from NCL and other places for August as a comparison.
I would say on average the first three rows of an F70 are allocated to Business Class meaning 74 seats per flight and a 66% load factor. At first glance this seems on the low side low to me as my recent experience is that flights are pretty full. I tend to fly out late Sunday or on early mornings Mon/Tues/Weds and fly back late on Wed/Thurs/Fri so this means that there must be some pretty empty flights at other points during the week. This s probably why you can fly to AMS on a Friday and back on Sunday (choice of excellent flight times) for only £94 return. I am doing this in a couple of weeks so will report back then.
I will also have a stab at calculating the KLM load factors from NCL and other places for August as a comparison.
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Anyone seen Robert Hough lately?
Is this man still onboard at DTV as he appears to be very busy elsewhere with all of his non executive posts?
Just wondering as I thought he was the man at the top of DTV Airport but he's nowhere to be seen? Who's steering the ship up here?
Sept 30th news.
Speaker Profile - Robert Hough - Liverpool Chamber of Commerce
Just wondering as I thought he was the man at the top of DTV Airport but he's nowhere to be seen? Who's steering the ship up here?
Sept 30th news.
Speaker Profile - Robert Hough - Liverpool Chamber of Commerce
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Beafer, there seems to be a lot of 'Word in the Village' ****e. If you want a copy, apply for it under the Freedom of Information Act. Maybe your Councillor mate can get it for you!
The truth is out there......
Hey,give beaver a break...he is only trying to get to the truth of this story.
At the end of the day..what is going on...or not going on...is a cause of concern to all.
Our airport is stagnating and no one seems able to do anything!
We all care in our own way!
At the end of the day..what is going on...or not going on...is a cause of concern to all.
Our airport is stagnating and no one seems able to do anything!
We all care in our own way!
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Load factors comparison
I have done some analysis based on the month of August to see how the load factors at Teeside compare with other Amsterdam routes. This is based on data from the CAA and from schiphol.dutchplanespotters.nl where I have taken the actual plane used and applied the relevant seat capacity. Note the figures do differ from David's numbers as i only have details of 169 KLM flights in/out of MME in August.
For a fair comparsion I have grouped the different routes to AMS as follows:
Airports where KLM is the sole operator to AMS
Durham Tees Valley 66%
Aberdeen 86%
Cardiff 76%
Humberside 73%
Manston 50%
Norwich 65%
Airports where KLM and a LCC (Easyjet or Jet2) compete on the AMS route. Assuming that the LCCs have a load factor of 93.8%, the KLM load factors would be:
Bristol 80%
Edinburgh 87%
Glasgow 86%
Leeds Bradford 74%
Manchester 86%
Newcastle 87%
Airports where FlyBe is the sole operator to AMS. In my opinion these are a similar customer market to the KLM Cityhopper routes:
East Midlands 65%
Exeter 70%
Inverness 74%
Southampton 65%
Airports where Easyjet is the sole operator to AMS
Belfast 94%
Liverpool 91%
London Luton 90%
London Southend 89%
London Stansted 90%
Heathrow, Gatwick and London City excluded due to the number of different operators flying to AMS.
My conclusion is that a mid 60% load factor for MME is just about OK but certainly nothing to write home about. Norwich has a similar level but operates 4 turnarounds a day. Manston is a new route but 50% capacity on 2 turnarounds will be disappointing for KLM. Teeside's load factor is, however, on a par with Flybe routes to AMS. Low Cost Carriers clearly have a significantly higher load factor than the likes of KLM.
Finally load factors are only one way of measuring the success of the route, we have no way of knowing the operating costs and passenger revenue from these routes.
For a fair comparsion I have grouped the different routes to AMS as follows:
Airports where KLM is the sole operator to AMS
Durham Tees Valley 66%
Aberdeen 86%
Cardiff 76%
Humberside 73%
Manston 50%
Norwich 65%
Airports where KLM and a LCC (Easyjet or Jet2) compete on the AMS route. Assuming that the LCCs have a load factor of 93.8%, the KLM load factors would be:
Bristol 80%
Edinburgh 87%
Glasgow 86%
Leeds Bradford 74%
Manchester 86%
Newcastle 87%
Airports where FlyBe is the sole operator to AMS. In my opinion these are a similar customer market to the KLM Cityhopper routes:
East Midlands 65%
Exeter 70%
Inverness 74%
Southampton 65%
Airports where Easyjet is the sole operator to AMS
Belfast 94%
Liverpool 91%
London Luton 90%
London Southend 89%
London Stansted 90%
Heathrow, Gatwick and London City excluded due to the number of different operators flying to AMS.
My conclusion is that a mid 60% load factor for MME is just about OK but certainly nothing to write home about. Norwich has a similar level but operates 4 turnarounds a day. Manston is a new route but 50% capacity on 2 turnarounds will be disappointing for KLM. Teeside's load factor is, however, on a par with Flybe routes to AMS. Low Cost Carriers clearly have a significantly higher load factor than the likes of KLM.
Finally load factors are only one way of measuring the success of the route, we have no way of knowing the operating costs and passenger revenue from these routes.
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YoungJoe, more than one person has already asked for an answer, but those in charge wont say whats in the DTV contract due to commercial concerns.
FOI's arent always the answer unless you have a mate who help? The questions can be ignored.
Have you got a copy of the contract as you sure don't like the subject raised for some reason
Over to you youngun
FOI's arent always the answer unless you have a mate who help? The questions can be ignored.
Have you got a copy of the contract as you sure don't like the subject raised for some reason
Over to you youngun
The same old questions get trotted out time and time again. If it bothers you that much, ask your local Councillor or MP for the answers. That's what they are there for.
I see it as the local councils couldn't afford to fund the airport so they done a deal with Peel without looking into it too much. The councils have been tied in knots by Peel and as a result have failed in their duties to ensure the promised investment.
Peel are ****e, but the councils are just as bad.
For me, Councillors and MP's are there to look after themselves and don't really give a stuff about anyone else. Put them on performance related pay and see how they cope!!
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Councillors should have visited Luton Town Hall. There the local Government make multi million pound profits from the airport, then spend it on 'Love Luton', Olympic sized swimming pools and other wasteful expenditure!
A town the size of Luton sould not be in such debt with an airport generating 'free' cash!
A town the size of Luton sould not be in such debt with an airport generating 'free' cash!