MANCHESTER - 7
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Manchester
Posts: 1,106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Ivan Aromer,
Here is a little mental exercise for you. Think of whatever airport you consider to be the very best of those which you consider to be world class. Then answer these rhetorical questions.
1) Could/would this airport rush the installation and statutory testing of a piece of ESSENTIAL SAFETY EQUIPMENT used for the purposes of blind landings in adverse weather conditions?
2) Could this airport rush/ignore the obligatory period of safety testing commensurate with equipment upon which the safety of life depends?
3) If you believe it could/would, would you be happy to book flights for yourself and your close family from said airport?
4) Could an airport which was prepared to take short-cuts on the installation and testing of essential safety equipment actually be deserving of the tag 'World Class'?
Manchester isn't taking and won't take such short-cuts. If that means that you wish to deride them for prioritizing world-class safety requirements then that is your choice. By all means use an airport with lower standards.
An airport which is not inclined to rush or shortcut its safety responsibilities is well on the way to being considered 'world class' by me. And I will never criticize or ridicule any airline or airport which ensures that safety is considered first, even at the expense of short-term hassle and inconvenience for all concerned.
Cheers, SHED.
Here is a little mental exercise for you. Think of whatever airport you consider to be the very best of those which you consider to be world class. Then answer these rhetorical questions.
1) Could/would this airport rush the installation and statutory testing of a piece of ESSENTIAL SAFETY EQUIPMENT used for the purposes of blind landings in adverse weather conditions?
2) Could this airport rush/ignore the obligatory period of safety testing commensurate with equipment upon which the safety of life depends?
3) If you believe it could/would, would you be happy to book flights for yourself and your close family from said airport?
4) Could an airport which was prepared to take short-cuts on the installation and testing of essential safety equipment actually be deserving of the tag 'World Class'?
Manchester isn't taking and won't take such short-cuts. If that means that you wish to deride them for prioritizing world-class safety requirements then that is your choice. By all means use an airport with lower standards.
An airport which is not inclined to rush or shortcut its safety responsibilities is well on the way to being considered 'world class' by me. And I will never criticize or ridicule any airline or airport which ensures that safety is considered first, even at the expense of short-term hassle and inconvenience for all concerned.
Cheers, SHED.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: manchester
Age: 70
Posts: 452
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shed-on-a-Pole
It seems to have been off for rather longer than promised!
IMHO an airport with the experience that MAN has should be able to forecast the time required and allow a margin of error. Ivan asked a question, you did not answer but instead appear to try to belittle him so what is the point of your post?
bmi man-lhr
Think BMI are having some problems with their timetables at present.
I booked a MAN-LHR return for Nov 20-21st back on August 1st
I have had four notifications of timetable changes so far:
one in August, one in September and two in October
I booked a MAN-LHR return for Nov 20-21st back on August 1st
I have had four notifications of timetable changes so far:
one in August, one in September and two in October
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Manchester
Posts: 1,106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi aI446,
Thankyou for your feedback. I will address your concerns in order:
'It appears that this is the relevant part of the post'
- I take the whole of the post as being relevant. It is a short message.
'He is simply asking a question'
- No he isn't. He is asking a *leading* question. It is phrased in a manner which invites the reader to sneer at Manchester Airport's perceived status for not rushing work with significant safety implications.
'you ... appear to try to belittle him'
- There are no personal remarks in my response. My reply to the contributor is robust, but he has elected to make a provocatively phrased posting concerning Manchester Airport on a public forum so a firm response is justified.
'what is the point of your post?'
- Britain has a culture of ridiculing organisations for prioritizing safety. Note how railway companies are lampooned in the media for canceling or delaying trains affected by leaf mulch. Note how airports are criticized for delaying flights in wet snow conditions. It is very easy to make a cheap jibe at the expense of safety measures.
The contributor's posting makes a jibe about MAN's world-class status to invite derision towards the company for not rushing essential safety equipment into service. The point of my post is to nip that attitude in the bud. Safety issues are not a joke. I will defend any company which takes its safety responsibilities seriously from commentators who would invite public ridicule against them for the inconvenient consequences of so doing. We must not encourage a climate in which companies are rewarded by public approval for rushing or cutting corners on works which have safety critical implications.
That is the point of my post.
Cheers, SHED.
Thankyou for your feedback. I will address your concerns in order:
'It appears that this is the relevant part of the post'
- I take the whole of the post as being relevant. It is a short message.
'He is simply asking a question'
- No he isn't. He is asking a *leading* question. It is phrased in a manner which invites the reader to sneer at Manchester Airport's perceived status for not rushing work with significant safety implications.
'you ... appear to try to belittle him'
- There are no personal remarks in my response. My reply to the contributor is robust, but he has elected to make a provocatively phrased posting concerning Manchester Airport on a public forum so a firm response is justified.
'what is the point of your post?'
- Britain has a culture of ridiculing organisations for prioritizing safety. Note how railway companies are lampooned in the media for canceling or delaying trains affected by leaf mulch. Note how airports are criticized for delaying flights in wet snow conditions. It is very easy to make a cheap jibe at the expense of safety measures.
The contributor's posting makes a jibe about MAN's world-class status to invite derision towards the company for not rushing essential safety equipment into service. The point of my post is to nip that attitude in the bud. Safety issues are not a joke. I will defend any company which takes its safety responsibilities seriously from commentators who would invite public ridicule against them for the inconvenient consequences of so doing. We must not encourage a climate in which companies are rewarded by public approval for rushing or cutting corners on works which have safety critical implications.
That is the point of my post.
Cheers, SHED.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 2,069
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
showed 11 return flights a day some depart within ten mins of each other!!!!
Maybe it is demand!
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: England
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seems like a fair question to me. The delivery of the ILS, like so many of MA's projects, is late. Fact: the opening date was put back.
Shed, mate, while you do have a valid point about safety, I think you've been a bit sensitive in reading the question and thus you've ranted a bit in your answer.
Give the guy a break. If you can answer the question with a date, fine. Otherwise, shh.
Shed, mate, while you do have a valid point about safety, I think you've been a bit sensitive in reading the question and thus you've ranted a bit in your answer.
Give the guy a break. If you can answer the question with a date, fine. Otherwise, shh.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Manchester
Posts: 1,106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Momentary Lapse,
"When will the ILS be back on 23?" Now THAT is a fair question.
"World class airport? When will the ILS be back on 23 at this world class airport?" Now that is a very different question. It is a question with an agenda beyond seeking a calendar date in reply. That is why I consider a robust response to be warranted, although I respect the right of others to disagree.
With regard to the actual introduction date for the new ILS, I would be happy to post the answer if I knew it. The ILS will be introduced once it has been thoroughly tested and approved by the certifying authorities.
Cheers, SHED.
"When will the ILS be back on 23?" Now THAT is a fair question.
"World class airport? When will the ILS be back on 23 at this world class airport?" Now that is a very different question. It is a question with an agenda beyond seeking a calendar date in reply. That is why I consider a robust response to be warranted, although I respect the right of others to disagree.
With regard to the actual introduction date for the new ILS, I would be happy to post the answer if I knew it. The ILS will be introduced once it has been thoroughly tested and approved by the certifying authorities.
Cheers, SHED.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: South of MAN, North of BHX, and well clear of Stoke ;-)
Posts: 487
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looking back over this thread, I recall TURIN suggesting there would be something "significant" happening possibly today, the 26th:
To which our friend rapidman47 suggested:
"backed up"with a further comment:
As it is now the fateful date in question, did I miss something in my coffee break today rapidman, or was it all just another example of unsubstantiated mischief mongering ? 
Heard a buzz the other day about something significant going on at the end of the month. (26th?). I have my own private opinion as what it may be but I'll keep schtum for now.
Anyone else heard anything?
Anyone else heard anything?
Easy pulling the plug
You will soon see I am right on both counts, so lets wait and see who is right shall we
from 47 at Easy opps
from 47 at Easy opps
Last edited by StoneyBridge Radar; 27th Oct 2009 at 08:14.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Does anyone know if the installation has reached the testing stage yet and whether the authorities have been to look at certifying the ILS yet?
The ILS was, according to notams, supposed to be u/s until the end of September, this then changed to the end of October.
The end of October is now looming.
Can we expect to see a change in the notams to say it is u/s until the end of November?
If so it is not very satisfactory!
The ILS was, according to notams, supposed to be u/s until the end of September, this then changed to the end of October.
The end of October is now looming.
Can we expect to see a change in the notams to say it is u/s until the end of November?
If so it is not very satisfactory!
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Testing did as far as I know take place as planned in mid September. CAT I was supposed to be restored mid to late September and CAT III by mid October.
This didn't happen as the NOTAM issued late September stated US until end of October. Clearly there were problems with the new ILS.
An update by way of an ATOI was to have been issued by 16 October. It wasn't. One has been issued today indicating ILS will be back at CAT I in the week commencing 2 November. We will see.
Safety would not be an issue as the CAA would not have certified it until it met all the relevant tests. What is relevant and what I think the first poster on this topic was implying is that once again the program has been running late for reasons which are unknown
Also few more ATOI's were issued today for various taxiways in particular Mike which is to be diverted for 11 weeks and stands 26 28 200 201 and 202 closed.
This didn't happen as the NOTAM issued late September stated US until end of October. Clearly there were problems with the new ILS.
An update by way of an ATOI was to have been issued by 16 October. It wasn't. One has been issued today indicating ILS will be back at CAT I in the week commencing 2 November. We will see.
Safety would not be an issue as the CAA would not have certified it until it met all the relevant tests. What is relevant and what I think the first poster on this topic was implying is that once again the program has been running late for reasons which are unknown
Also few more ATOI's were issued today for various taxiways in particular Mike which is to be diverted for 11 weeks and stands 26 28 200 201 and 202 closed.
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The 26th? Perhaps it was this?! ... Goodbye Olly, hello Olivia as airport cat reveals a secret - News - Manchester Evening News
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: North West
Posts: 234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regarding the Big anccoument, Easyjet it would seem, are going to be basing more a/c in Manchester, not pulling out.
Menzies are taking on Dispatchers, but is this for Lufty/Swiss or Easyjet expansion?
TP
Menzies are taking on Dispatchers, but is this for Lufty/Swiss or Easyjet expansion?
TP
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 2,069
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well U2 has to put their new planes somewhere along with the ones it is bringing out of LTN and LGW/MXP have to share the joy.
Its too tempting to NOT predict future routes
, so here goes!
Madrid, Madeira, increase Athens, Rome - to start with!
MAN pretty much has most of the U2 network covered with other carriers but I hope they try and find some more unique destinations...
Its too tempting to NOT predict future routes
, so here goes!Madrid, Madeira, increase Athens, Rome - to start with!
MAN pretty much has most of the U2 network covered with other carriers but I hope they try and find some more unique destinations...
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: South of MAN, North of BHX, and well clear of Stoke ;-)
Posts: 487
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would hope they look at BCN.
Having this week had Monarch cancel 2 trips planned for December and January, including over Christmas, we're having to schlepp over to LPL to fly EZY on both occassions.
The irony is, even now, the EZY tickets work out significantly cheaper than ZB.
My wishlist from their current network would be BCN, BFS, FAO, FCO, LIS, FNC, MAD, NCE, VCE, VIE, WAW.
Having this week had Monarch cancel 2 trips planned for December and January, including over Christmas, we're having to schlepp over to LPL to fly EZY on both occassions.
The irony is, even now, the EZY tickets work out significantly cheaper than ZB.
My wishlist from their current network would be BCN, BFS, FAO, FCO, LIS, FNC, MAD, NCE, VCE, VIE, WAW.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ILS outage on 23R - rather embarrassing really!
As I understand it the ILS replacement programme went out to tender some months back.
Amongst the bidders were THALES and NATS(National Air Traffic Services), the latter supplying the Air Traffic Control service and Engineering support to MA for all their Navigational requirements and have done impeccably for the past 25 years.
The successful winner was THALES, possibly because of the airports present practice of go for the cheapest option if you can!
Thales cracked on with the removal of the old ILS on 23R during the early part of September.
Coincidentally Luton were also replacing their ILS system and had given the contract to NATS. (Not the cheapest perhaps but ----!) and this commenced some two weeks or so after the Manchester work started.
Lutons' ILS has been serviceable now for some two weeks and is well into the 350 hours of continuous, uninterupted, no fault, functionality testing which is required to enable it to be used to CAT 3 standard.
Poor poor Manchester, running at least three weeks behind schedule still mudling through with VOR / DME approaches, - using a VOR that is really an En-route piece of equipment and nothing to do with MA. Wouldn't it be grim if the en route chaps told MA that essential maintenance on the VOR was required and that it'd be off air for a week. All that would be left for inbound traffic would be vectors to a visual final on 23R or 23L, the lowest descent altitude being 1600'. If not visual by then it would be go around and ultimately divert. Hardly a world class scenario.
I believe that there is chance that the ILS on 23R may well be back next week, but who knows when CAT 3 will be available? (Hopefully after 350 hours of unbreakbale service, but I will not be holding my breath)!!
After that they've (THALES), have got two more to do - 05L and 05R - roc on.
Ah well, back to me sour grapes - oooo they are good
Amongst the bidders were THALES and NATS(National Air Traffic Services), the latter supplying the Air Traffic Control service and Engineering support to MA for all their Navigational requirements and have done impeccably for the past 25 years.
The successful winner was THALES, possibly because of the airports present practice of go for the cheapest option if you can!
Thales cracked on with the removal of the old ILS on 23R during the early part of September.
Coincidentally Luton were also replacing their ILS system and had given the contract to NATS. (Not the cheapest perhaps but ----!) and this commenced some two weeks or so after the Manchester work started.
Lutons' ILS has been serviceable now for some two weeks and is well into the 350 hours of continuous, uninterupted, no fault, functionality testing which is required to enable it to be used to CAT 3 standard.
Poor poor Manchester, running at least three weeks behind schedule still mudling through with VOR / DME approaches, - using a VOR that is really an En-route piece of equipment and nothing to do with MA. Wouldn't it be grim if the en route chaps told MA that essential maintenance on the VOR was required and that it'd be off air for a week. All that would be left for inbound traffic would be vectors to a visual final on 23R or 23L, the lowest descent altitude being 1600'. If not visual by then it would be go around and ultimately divert. Hardly a world class scenario.
I believe that there is chance that the ILS on 23R may well be back next week, but who knows when CAT 3 will be available? (Hopefully after 350 hours of unbreakbale service, but I will not be holding my breath)!!
After that they've (THALES), have got two more to do - 05L and 05R - roc on.
Ah well, back to me sour grapes - oooo they are good
Last edited by Adola69; 27th Oct 2009 at 23:35.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Manchester
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can anyone in "Authority" at MA plc, a so called "Green Airport" insist on having their evening "Runway Inspection" just as the "planned" inbound rush is about to happen? 5 in the Dayne hold on Sunday 5 on Monday...some are holding unnecessarily for up to 20 mins....WHY?
Is it an Ego trip? I know that ATC are not happy with this situation, so why persist?
Answers on a Postcard.....oh better not..
Is it an Ego trip? I know that ATC are not happy with this situation, so why persist?
Answers on a Postcard.....oh better not..
If the current "fixed" inspection times are a recurring issue then maybe get it discussed and examine alternatives at the Tuesday meetings?
On the day there's usually a 'phone call and some flexibility in coordinating the actual time.
I'll pm you.
On the day there's usually a 'phone call and some flexibility in coordinating the actual time.
I'll pm you.