MANCHESTER - 7
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The City of Manchester, I agree is quite small! But Greater Manchester (which I accept is technically a county), has a population of around 2.5 million which is about the same as the West Midlands.
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The key phrase is by any "sensible measure"......
Yes Birmingham has the second largest population in UK but as MUFC suggests that hardly matters anymore !
If that population has limited investment and resouces it is constrained by its own inertia.
It is all about the economic, musical, sporting, recreational, artistic, and cultural mix which that population and visitors have the opportunity to enjoy !
The harsh reality is that Birmingham is simply another regional city. It does not compare to Manchester in any way shape or form......
I am prepared to be swayed as I have only ever driven through it or round it as there is no appetite to actually visit, why would there be ?
By way of example Manchester is the largest economic centre outside London AND one of the largest in Europe , it has the largest residential tower in the UK, the largest student campus in Europe proving how vibrant the city and its confines are, the largest number of theatres and restaurants outside London, the largest Shopping centre outside London, the largest indoor arena in the UK, a number of world class "Open" golf courses within 45 minutes, at least 1 world class football stadia and a team known thoughout the world......within 1 hour we have some of the best coutryside in the UK, The Lake District, Peak District, Chester and North Wales.
It's THOSE factors that makes Manchester the "true second UK city" and also an international centre for a multitude of activities.
Other than the NEC I genuinely have no idea how Birmingham could compete?
Yes Birmingham has the second largest population in UK but as MUFC suggests that hardly matters anymore !
If that population has limited investment and resouces it is constrained by its own inertia.
It is all about the economic, musical, sporting, recreational, artistic, and cultural mix which that population and visitors have the opportunity to enjoy !
The harsh reality is that Birmingham is simply another regional city. It does not compare to Manchester in any way shape or form......
I am prepared to be swayed as I have only ever driven through it or round it as there is no appetite to actually visit, why would there be ?
By way of example Manchester is the largest economic centre outside London AND one of the largest in Europe , it has the largest residential tower in the UK, the largest student campus in Europe proving how vibrant the city and its confines are, the largest number of theatres and restaurants outside London, the largest Shopping centre outside London, the largest indoor arena in the UK, a number of world class "Open" golf courses within 45 minutes, at least 1 world class football stadia and a team known thoughout the world......within 1 hour we have some of the best coutryside in the UK, The Lake District, Peak District, Chester and North Wales.
It's THOSE factors that makes Manchester the "true second UK city" and also an international centre for a multitude of activities.
Other than the NEC I genuinely have no idea how Birmingham could compete?
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It's an argument that goes on and on across many forums that cover very different topics/industries.
Manchester (as in the Manchester City Council area) is relatively small. However you do have Tameside, and Trafford which are very Mancunian and where people refer to themselves as being Mancunian. Furthermore, there aren't any major commercial centres that people in these areas identify as being "town". Droylsden, Audenshawe, Denton etc are all very much in Manchester but not the Council area. Similar to the fact that Westminster isn't in the City Of London. Similarly, whilst many Salford people won't refer to themselves as Mancunian Salford is even more a suburb of Manchester than even Trafford. Thats despite Salford having City status. By the same token, there are parts of Rochdale and Bury council areas (e.g Middleton) which are distinctly Manc and where people regard themselves as such.
Then you have anomolies such as the Trafford Centre which everyone knows and refers to as being in Manchester. Yet if we quoted the City Council area, it wouldn't be. The same goes for Old Trafford.
Granted, areas of Greater Manchester such as Stockport, Oldham and Bolton are different towns and so the argument isn't quite as strong. That said places like Oldham and Stockport are becoming ever closer in many ways these days. By contrast, Bolton seems too large itself to be part of Manchester and Wigan doesn't border the Manchester City Council area at all.
Either way, Greater Manchester is a great conurbation but the actual City of Manchester is not always very easy to define and simply referring to the council area figures isn't very accurate.
Manchester (as in the Manchester City Council area) is relatively small. However you do have Tameside, and Trafford which are very Mancunian and where people refer to themselves as being Mancunian. Furthermore, there aren't any major commercial centres that people in these areas identify as being "town". Droylsden, Audenshawe, Denton etc are all very much in Manchester but not the Council area. Similar to the fact that Westminster isn't in the City Of London. Similarly, whilst many Salford people won't refer to themselves as Mancunian Salford is even more a suburb of Manchester than even Trafford. Thats despite Salford having City status. By the same token, there are parts of Rochdale and Bury council areas (e.g Middleton) which are distinctly Manc and where people regard themselves as such.
Then you have anomolies such as the Trafford Centre which everyone knows and refers to as being in Manchester. Yet if we quoted the City Council area, it wouldn't be. The same goes for Old Trafford.
Granted, areas of Greater Manchester such as Stockport, Oldham and Bolton are different towns and so the argument isn't quite as strong. That said places like Oldham and Stockport are becoming ever closer in many ways these days. By contrast, Bolton seems too large itself to be part of Manchester and Wigan doesn't border the Manchester City Council area at all.
Either way, Greater Manchester is a great conurbation but the actual City of Manchester is not always very easy to define and simply referring to the council area figures isn't very accurate.
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In the case of this forum, demand for air travel is far greater in the North West than the Midlands.
It doesn't matter whether the CITY of Manchester is bigger, smaller, fatter, taller than Birmingham - for goodness sake - Manchester Airport isn't even in Manchester if we are being that pedantic!
MAN's main market comes from Manchester, Liverpool, Cheshire, Lancashire and Yorkshire with passengers coming from as far as Glasgow and Edinburgh on the train - not just the CITY of Manchester.
It doesn't matter whether the CITY of Manchester is bigger, smaller, fatter, taller than Birmingham - for goodness sake - Manchester Airport isn't even in Manchester if we are being that pedantic!
MAN's main market comes from Manchester, Liverpool, Cheshire, Lancashire and Yorkshire with passengers coming from as far as Glasgow and Edinburgh on the train - not just the CITY of Manchester.
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The "which is the second city" debate is irrelevant (and slightly boring as it goes round in circles for ever and ever). In aviation terms as MUFC fan states MAN is easily second which may be down to the many reasons listed in the posts or simply that BHX is too close to London.
Changing subjects slightly - Does anybody think MAN will have 4 daily services to New York come November? At best they may retain 3 airlines at reduced frequencies or will AA and DL completely withdraw for the winter?
Changing subjects slightly - Does anybody think MAN will have 4 daily services to New York come November? At best they may retain 3 airlines at reduced frequencies or will AA and DL completely withdraw for the winter?
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I have a feeling that over the summer all three alliances will have a good run but come the winter I would be surprised if there is more than a Star Alliance influence.
AA are pretty much going to walk come the winter as the aircraft is more profitable on the Mexico/Caribbean runs (a la Boston) but I am not so sure about Delta...
AA are pretty much going to walk come the winter as the aircraft is more profitable on the Mexico/Caribbean runs (a la Boston) but I am not so sure about Delta...
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Not wishing to turn the thread into a city v city debate but to give a little balance. Economically PwC and KPMG state the West Midlands is still the 2nd biggest economic centre in England, don't forget it's still home and base to major multi-nationals such as Cadbury, Jaguar/Land Rover etc, that said it is an economy in decline, whereas the north west is an economy that until the recession was in growth and has suffered a much less steep decline during the recession. In sporting terms and this may surprise Brum is the first city, more international sporting events are held in Brum than in any other UK city, London 2nd and Sheffield 3rd. In cultural terms it will always depend on your tastes, can't really pull the 2 apart, of course the North West has a very rich musical heritage. In terms of the media industry hands down Gtr Manchester is the 2nd city, no debate to be had, indeed I'd be surprised if Brum even came in the top 5 in terms of media.
In terms of the airline and airport industry, which is why most of us are here, again hands down Manchester is the 2nd city to London but comparing the 2 airports is apples and pears, BHX is a hub by and large for the West Mids, MAN is the hub for the north of England and a very good hub by the way for all the stick it gets sometimes.
As stated at the top not trying to turn this into an argument and in reality I don't think there's much between the 2 cities, both have highs and lows and for the record I visit Manchester on a very regular basis and do love the place, but no place like home though as they say....
In terms of the airline and airport industry, which is why most of us are here, again hands down Manchester is the 2nd city to London but comparing the 2 airports is apples and pears, BHX is a hub by and large for the West Mids, MAN is the hub for the north of England and a very good hub by the way for all the stick it gets sometimes.
As stated at the top not trying to turn this into an argument and in reality I don't think there's much between the 2 cities, both have highs and lows and for the record I visit Manchester on a very regular basis and do love the place, but no place like home though as they say....
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Birmingham will never compete with Manchester or London airports as it is caught in the 'couple of hours' mindset. Most people will travel for a couple of hours to access an airport. MAN and LHR fall into that catagory from the West Midlands. Where BHX excels is as a gateway airport to bigger hubs. Some of the cheapest fares I have found and bought over the last couple of years have been from BHX to the USA, South Africa and the West Indies using the KLM/NW/AF group through Schipol or CDG, both relatively civilised compared to LHR.
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Birmingham will never compete with Manchester or London airports as it is caught in the 'couple of hours' mindset. Most people will travel for a couple of hours to access an airport. MAN and LHR fall into that catagory from the West Midlands. Where BHX excels is as a gateway airport to bigger hubs.
Some of the cheapest fares I have found and bought over the last couple of years have been from BHX to the USA, South Africa and the West Indies using the KLM/NW/AF group through Schipol or CDG
both relatively civilised compared to LHR.
But I would agree, any other terminal and it's poor.
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Please can we avoid the "my city is bigger than yours" its has been done to death in the past and really doesnt prove anything. The fact is Airlines put their aircraft where they will make money and where infrastructure exists to support the operation, simple as that !
Manchester had the foresight many years to put that infrastructure into place and that is why we are where we are.
Manchester had the foresight many years to put that infrastructure into place and that is why we are where we are.
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But I would agree, any other terminal and it's poor.
I think the AA summer JFK is seasonal.
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......interestingly and the other point is that Manchester has been the 3rd most popular inward destination for international travellers after London and Edinburgh !
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......interestingly and the other point is that Manchester has been the 3rd most popular inward destination for international travellers after London and Edinburgh !
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North v South
Man 777
Amid the tendentious ourpourings of a few on this site, you have explained in just a few words the reality of the current situation - airlines put their planes where they can make money.
This is nothing to do with 'second city' status which, historically, was conferred on Birmingham for the drynamic part it played in creating the British Empire - the city of a thousand trades, the birthplace of engineering and ingenuity. In the 19th and early 20th centuries was there ever a city or country that could not provide the 'Made in Birmingham' mark. It was what China and Japan are today. That is why it was titled the 'second city'.
Sometimes I wonder that seeking that title is borne more out of jealously by those who seem intent on wanting to perpetuate that old north - south divide and turning a blind eye to historical fact.
Less rhetoric more good forum fodder on airline and airport developments - please.
Amid the tendentious ourpourings of a few on this site, you have explained in just a few words the reality of the current situation - airlines put their planes where they can make money.
This is nothing to do with 'second city' status which, historically, was conferred on Birmingham for the drynamic part it played in creating the British Empire - the city of a thousand trades, the birthplace of engineering and ingenuity. In the 19th and early 20th centuries was there ever a city or country that could not provide the 'Made in Birmingham' mark. It was what China and Japan are today. That is why it was titled the 'second city'.
Sometimes I wonder that seeking that title is borne more out of jealously by those who seem intent on wanting to perpetuate that old north - south divide and turning a blind eye to historical fact.
Less rhetoric more good forum fodder on airline and airport developments - please.
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AA's JFK service is seasonal but I have a hunch that when all the i's have been dotted and the t's crossed on the anti-trust immunity application for AA and BA, it will feature as a year-round service (with a growing number of regional UK - USA services over the coming years)
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It doesn't matter whether the CITY of Manchester is bigger, smaller, fatter, taller than Birmingham - for goodness sake - Manchester Airport isn't even in Manchester if we are being that pedantic!
From the map, it looks as though the boundary was modified many years ago to give all of the airport to a single local authority, but the powers that be have not caught up since the second runway was built.
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With catchments, dont forget the majority of north wales has MAN as the main airport.
But, the main arguement isnt really about city sizes, its about where the airport catchments lie.
For example, BHX's main issue is and always has been London airports (mainly LHR and for loco, STN/LTN). To some extent, MAN has also taken punters from the northern reaches of Birmingham, wolverhampton and stafford.
I think the case point is that in a city with one of the largest indian communities, no carrier has been able to stick out an indian connection, proven with air india, retreating to LHR. Regardless how bloomin big the city is, with London now just over an hour by train, and the ease of the motorways, LHR/LTN/STN will be always casting a shadow over BHX.
Paul Kehoe is Naive enough to think High speed rail will make BHX 'LHRs thrid ruway', more like it means more passengers have easy access to the 3 afformentioned London airports!
No doubt if these airports were harder to reach, BHX would be on traffic par with MAN, if not more.
MAN is lucky enough to be far enough away from LHR to support its own services, and our main success has been the middle east and America. This summer will see 32 flights a week to the New York area alone, and come winter the middle east will see 2x B773, 1xA388 and 1xA333, both situations envied by any other airport.
So, Birmingham may be bigger than Manchester, and if people want to see either/or as the second city, thats fine, but, for the reasons above, and without trying to sound smug, MAN will always be the bigger airport.
But, the main arguement isnt really about city sizes, its about where the airport catchments lie.
For example, BHX's main issue is and always has been London airports (mainly LHR and for loco, STN/LTN). To some extent, MAN has also taken punters from the northern reaches of Birmingham, wolverhampton and stafford.
I think the case point is that in a city with one of the largest indian communities, no carrier has been able to stick out an indian connection, proven with air india, retreating to LHR. Regardless how bloomin big the city is, with London now just over an hour by train, and the ease of the motorways, LHR/LTN/STN will be always casting a shadow over BHX.
Paul Kehoe is Naive enough to think High speed rail will make BHX 'LHRs thrid ruway', more like it means more passengers have easy access to the 3 afformentioned London airports!
No doubt if these airports were harder to reach, BHX would be on traffic par with MAN, if not more.
MAN is lucky enough to be far enough away from LHR to support its own services, and our main success has been the middle east and America. This summer will see 32 flights a week to the New York area alone, and come winter the middle east will see 2x B773, 1xA388 and 1xA333, both situations envied by any other airport.
So, Birmingham may be bigger than Manchester, and if people want to see either/or as the second city, thats fine, but, for the reasons above, and without trying to sound smug, MAN will always be the bigger airport.
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But, the main arguement isnt really about city sizes, its about where the airport catchments lie.
It is all about revenue...
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not really MUFC_fan, as the case with Air India proves.
Its ATQ-BHX-YYZ services were very popular and had good yeilds, as said so by AI themselves, but the route was transferred to LHR to protect slots.
I think that shows exactly what I mean, as AI would rather the pax travel to LHR than BHX, and no doubt the decision was made much easier for AI due to the ease of getting to LHR from BHX.
Its ATQ-BHX-YYZ services were very popular and had good yeilds, as said so by AI themselves, but the route was transferred to LHR to protect slots.
I think that shows exactly what I mean, as AI would rather the pax travel to LHR than BHX, and no doubt the decision was made much easier for AI due to the ease of getting to LHR from BHX.