MANCHESTER - 7
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From the BBC News website:
"That's why if you are travelling at the moment, or if you are looking to travel over the next few days, make sure you check the website and some of the departure boards for more information."
The airport's live flight information website could not be accessed on Sunday afternoon.
Come on MAN, at least get the basics right for passengers when there is disruption.
"That's why if you are travelling at the moment, or if you are looking to travel over the next few days, make sure you check the website and some of the departure boards for more information."
The airport's live flight information website could not be accessed on Sunday afternoon.
Come on MAN, at least get the basics right for passengers when there is disruption.
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Can someone in the know explain why the very expensive concrete strip in Cheshire has not been used today, at a time when I thought having a second snow free runway would pay dividends. In my simple logic why not keep sweeping all day alternating the runways ? Instead we have had several hour long closures causing chaos.
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Can someone in the know explain why the very expensive concrete strip in Cheshire has not been used today, at a time when I thought having a second snow free runway would pay dividends. In my simple logic why not keep sweeping all day alternating the runways ? Instead we have had several hour long closures causing chaos.
People living under the flight paths would sh*t themselves if they broke these rules.
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I thought this agreement could be waived in exceptional circumstances ?
I suspect cost savings might be the real reason
Thousands of gallons of deicer, twice the staff on Sunday callout (ouch ! expensive !)
As an aside I bet the Pax on Virgin 074 were mighty p***ed off, sitting on taxiway Alpha for the best part of 2 hours this morning waiting for a stand to be swept.
I suspect cost savings might be the real reason
Thousands of gallons of deicer, twice the staff on Sunday callout (ouch ! expensive !)
As an aside I bet the Pax on Virgin 074 were mighty p***ed off, sitting on taxiway Alpha for the best part of 2 hours this morning waiting for a stand to be swept.
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Suzeman
Im sorry but im just a super positive person who gets on.
What has ever been achieved with a negative attitude?
Wheres theres blame theres a claim - indeed.
Northerners should move on and be more positive.
MAN for me has over-achieved, given that it is not considered
to be a 'second-city'.
Old gits moaning about the past should be put to bed.
MM
Im sorry but im just a super positive person who gets on.
What has ever been achieved with a negative attitude?
Wheres theres blame theres a claim - indeed.
Northerners should move on and be more positive.
MAN for me has over-achieved, given that it is not considered
to be a 'second-city'.
Old gits moaning about the past should be put to bed.
MM
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Closed again !!, why is this taking so long ? Are the Airport authority being hyper careful or is this turning into a cock up !! MAN might be up there with Luton in the "snow clearing fiasco" awards this year !!
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Im afraid that they could have brushed/de-iced/used dynomite today, the snow was falling with such ferosity it simply couldnt be swept away quick enough. Still...have to feel for the KLM passengers, arrived at about 9 am this morning ans were still sat on board at 3pm, when the pilot informed his handlers that the toilets were full.....nice.
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LX pax to ZRH sat aboard from 08.10 to 15.30 with no idea if and when they'd get away. Eventually, flt canx and told to try again tomorrow.
Heard from another source that there was the usual disconnect between agencies that led to numerous missed slots.
Perhaps putting a few de-icing rigs at the holding bay under these exceptional circumstances would break the negative feedback loop that develops. Oh, and those night stop airlines that watch the weather get the handlers to turn their a/c nose out overnight so push back tugs not gettin' any grip doesn't spoil the day.
And CFMU saying first come first served, we'll break out into a sweat but we can handle it - eg turn off the iron brain.
I know it's only once or twice a year but how difficult can it be to pull together instead of slavishly following the FIDS?
Good luck for Monday and Tuesday
Sir George Cayley
Heard from another source that there was the usual disconnect between agencies that led to numerous missed slots.
Perhaps putting a few de-icing rigs at the holding bay under these exceptional circumstances would break the negative feedback loop that develops. Oh, and those night stop airlines that watch the weather get the handlers to turn their a/c nose out overnight so push back tugs not gettin' any grip doesn't spoil the day.
And CFMU saying first come first served, we'll break out into a sweat but we can handle it - eg turn off the iron brain.
I know it's only once or twice a year but how difficult can it be to pull together instead of slavishly following the FIDS?
Good luck for Monday and Tuesday
Sir George Cayley
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Manchester once again excels closeing again why! snow flury and again closes for the second time this week, but again tries to hide this with a arrivals/departures web page that is under maitenece on a Sunday morning.
ref 2249
It is simply too easy yo sit on the sidelines and moan when the operation turns to sh1t. For most of the day the cloudbase would have precluded arrivals using VOR/DME on 23L. Several arrivals on 23R must have been very close to minima on the CAT1 ILS approach. With a steady 7-10kt sw wind changing to 05 with a contaminated runway was not an option either.
Snow clearing during snow fall is truly a thankless task, the black top created behind the snow brushes is already white in the 7-8 minutes it takes to make one run along the runway.
Most of the snow fleet after after working on 23R goes on to taxiway work, they don't clear off to base for a brew.
This was a very difficult weather situation with heavy snowfall and freezing temperatures combined and a thunderstorm for good measure. Three consecutive departures experienced lightning strikes with one diverting back in.
As to the KLM, I doubt they will be using Man as an alternate for a while and I am sure MA will be investigating the issues surrounding that flight and the VIR74 whose pax and crew must have been pretty pissed off. Overall though not a bad effort in a situation which some of you do not grasp the difficulty.
Best,
Hawks.
It is simply too easy yo sit on the sidelines and moan when the operation turns to sh1t. For most of the day the cloudbase would have precluded arrivals using VOR/DME on 23L. Several arrivals on 23R must have been very close to minima on the CAT1 ILS approach. With a steady 7-10kt sw wind changing to 05 with a contaminated runway was not an option either.
Snow clearing during snow fall is truly a thankless task, the black top created behind the snow brushes is already white in the 7-8 minutes it takes to make one run along the runway.
Most of the snow fleet after after working on 23R goes on to taxiway work, they don't clear off to base for a brew.
This was a very difficult weather situation with heavy snowfall and freezing temperatures combined and a thunderstorm for good measure. Three consecutive departures experienced lightning strikes with one diverting back in.
As to the KLM, I doubt they will be using Man as an alternate for a while and I am sure MA will be investigating the issues surrounding that flight and the VIR74 whose pax and crew must have been pretty pissed off. Overall though not a bad effort in a situation which some of you do not grasp the difficulty.
Best,
Hawks.
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Well said seahawks - it's a bit different when you are out there instead of sitting in an armchair in a warm home, supposing you know what is going on. Been there, done that. Nothing like a warm cuppa and a bacon sarny whilst clearing snow - the refreshments used to come to you rather than going back to base.
MUFC - The latter comment is rubbish. 23L/05R can be used in extremis when it is supposed to be closed (subject to an inspection first) when emergencies happen, as in fact it did last week when the BE Dash 8 did a pax evacuation on 05L
At present 23L-05R is not scheduled to be used on Sunday am as the traffic doesn't warrant it. Therefore the priority would have been to keep the one runway open with the resources they had on overnight. After the Saturday pm snowfall, the temperatures dropped rapidly to reach a low of -7 at 0300. But working all night, the airfield was open first thing this morning. Perhaps the intention was to get onto 05R/ 23L then?
However, ManofMan is quite correct. There were then a succession of showers dumping a few cm at a time with clear patches of 20 minutes or so in between. As seahawks says a blacktop surface can go white again in 7-8 minutes, so just as you have cleared it you are back to square one and have to close again as soon as the contamination gets too great. There is about 10 cm of snow lying so hardly a flury (sic) Mouser.
Here are the METARS
EGCC 201750Z 21010KT 9999 FEW011 SCT027 01/00 Q0994=
EGCC 201720Z 23014KT 9999 BKN012 01/00 Q0994=
EGCC 201650Z 23014KT 220V280 9999 -SHSN BKN011 01/01 Q0994=
EGCC 201620Z 22012KT 9999 SHSN BKN008 01/01 Q0993 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201550Z 24010KT 4500 SHSN BKN009 01/01 Q0993 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201520Z 22011KT 4500 -SHSN BKN010 01/01 Q0993 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201450Z 23008KT 4500 -SHSN FEW007 BKN017 01/01 Q0993 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201420Z 23008KT 5000 TSSN FEW002 BKN011 00/00 Q0993 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201350Z 24014KT 3000 TSSN FEW003 BKN011 00/00 Q0994 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201320Z 21011KT 4000 -SHSN FEW003 SCT021 01/00 Q0993=
EGCC 201250Z 21010KT 0900 R23R/0750 SHSN FEW003 BKN006 00/00 Q0994=
EGCC 201220Z 23014KT 1100 R23R/1100 SHSN SCT008 BKN011 00/00 Q0994=
EGCC 201150Z 22013KT 190V260 3900 -SHSN FEW006 SCT011 00/00 Q0995 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201120Z 19006KT 0800 R23R/P1500 SHSN FEW002 BKN012 M00/M00 Q0995 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201050Z 21008KT 0800 R23R/0750 SHSN FEW002 BKN013 M01/M01 Q0996=
EGCC 200950Z 17005KT 9999 4600E VCSH FEW018 SCT030 M03/M03 Q0997 RESN=
EGCC 200920Z 16006KT 9999 4000NW -SHSN FEW030 M03/M04 Q0997=
EGCC 200850Z 17006KT 9000 FEW011 SCT018 M03/M04 Q0997=
EGCC 200820Z 16006KT 9999 FEW011 SCT033 M04/M05 Q0998=
EGCC 200750Z 15004KT 9999 FEW011 SCT018 M04/M05 Q0998 SNOCLO=
EGCC 200720Z 15005KT 2000 -SN FEW005 BKN021 M04/M05 Q0998=
EGCC 200650Z 20005KT 170V230 9000 -SN FEW005 SCT036 M05/M07 Q0999=
Could someone in the know tell me what the current rules are re runways and snow clearing in the UK or point me in the right direction? Several UK carriers were saying their ops manuals would let them depart with some contamination on the runway so why not at MAN? Never heard what the answer was.
As Sir George has pointed out, there seemed to be disconnets in information flow - do the Airport have some sort of emergency centre for use by personnel from all the relevant agencies to coordinate actions in this type of situation? I'm sure they must have, so how about some Collaborative Decision Making? ZRH has a tremendous centre which is used on a normal basis to coordinate operations and which is a boon when exceptional situations develop and I believe MUC does something similar to minimise delays and make best use of capacity and slots.
As seahawks noted once the runway is sorted there are then taxiways and stands to clear and that's where I believe it all started going wrong. Outbounds were stuck on cleared stands as the airfield was SNOCLO and not enough vacant safe stands led to the delays mentioned earlier as the snow teams had to keep going back to the runway. Maybe there were not enough resources available, but you have to balance the pieces of snow kit available with the number of times the kit is going to be used. Any business decison contains risk and maybe the chance of this sort of thing happening once a year was a risk the Airport chose to take?
The Virgin 747 was waiting for nearly 4 hours for a stand whilst the KLM waited until 1300 for some steps and buses by which time his bogs were full. I heard a story that the Cpt threatened to pop the chutes if the buses didnt arrive shortly.
Not sure it was under maintenance as it is still on the emergency page at this time of night. Maybe it crashed due to the volume of traffic on the website, especially with SKY saying all flights were cancelled. However, exceptional situations are the time you need accurate info most!
But true to form, Mr Mouser suspects a conspiricy..... Why on earth would the airport try to hide it? I'm sure there were enough p*ssed off pax on their mobiles as it was happening.
Anyway, as Norman Lamont said, "it has been a very difficult day" and at least the operation did keep going just about. Hopefully the post mortem will reveal plenty of areas for improvement by all agencies rather than a finger pointing exercise. But I wonder......Oops, sorry mickeyman must be positive -it WILL be a constructive exercise in making sure that lessons are learned and it won't happen again.
This old git's off to bed now
Suzeman
Can someone in the know explain why the very expensive concrete strip in Cheshire has not been used today, at a time when I thought having a second snow free runway would pay dividends. In my simple logic why not keep sweeping all day alternating the runways ?
They are only allowed to use certain runways at certain times with certain departure patterns
At present 23L-05R is not scheduled to be used on Sunday am as the traffic doesn't warrant it. Therefore the priority would have been to keep the one runway open with the resources they had on overnight. After the Saturday pm snowfall, the temperatures dropped rapidly to reach a low of -7 at 0300. But working all night, the airfield was open first thing this morning. Perhaps the intention was to get onto 05R/ 23L then?
However, ManofMan is quite correct. There were then a succession of showers dumping a few cm at a time with clear patches of 20 minutes or so in between. As seahawks says a blacktop surface can go white again in 7-8 minutes, so just as you have cleared it you are back to square one and have to close again as soon as the contamination gets too great. There is about 10 cm of snow lying so hardly a flury (sic) Mouser.
Here are the METARS
EGCC 201750Z 21010KT 9999 FEW011 SCT027 01/00 Q0994=
EGCC 201720Z 23014KT 9999 BKN012 01/00 Q0994=
EGCC 201650Z 23014KT 220V280 9999 -SHSN BKN011 01/01 Q0994=
EGCC 201620Z 22012KT 9999 SHSN BKN008 01/01 Q0993 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201550Z 24010KT 4500 SHSN BKN009 01/01 Q0993 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201520Z 22011KT 4500 -SHSN BKN010 01/01 Q0993 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201450Z 23008KT 4500 -SHSN FEW007 BKN017 01/01 Q0993 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201420Z 23008KT 5000 TSSN FEW002 BKN011 00/00 Q0993 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201350Z 24014KT 3000 TSSN FEW003 BKN011 00/00 Q0994 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201320Z 21011KT 4000 -SHSN FEW003 SCT021 01/00 Q0993=
EGCC 201250Z 21010KT 0900 R23R/0750 SHSN FEW003 BKN006 00/00 Q0994=
EGCC 201220Z 23014KT 1100 R23R/1100 SHSN SCT008 BKN011 00/00 Q0994=
EGCC 201150Z 22013KT 190V260 3900 -SHSN FEW006 SCT011 00/00 Q0995 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201120Z 19006KT 0800 R23R/P1500 SHSN FEW002 BKN012 M00/M00 Q0995 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201050Z 21008KT 0800 R23R/0750 SHSN FEW002 BKN013 M01/M01 Q0996=
EGCC 200950Z 17005KT 9999 4600E VCSH FEW018 SCT030 M03/M03 Q0997 RESN=
EGCC 200920Z 16006KT 9999 4000NW -SHSN FEW030 M03/M04 Q0997=
EGCC 200850Z 17006KT 9000 FEW011 SCT018 M03/M04 Q0997=
EGCC 200820Z 16006KT 9999 FEW011 SCT033 M04/M05 Q0998=
EGCC 200750Z 15004KT 9999 FEW011 SCT018 M04/M05 Q0998 SNOCLO=
EGCC 200720Z 15005KT 2000 -SN FEW005 BKN021 M04/M05 Q0998=
EGCC 200650Z 20005KT 170V230 9000 -SN FEW005 SCT036 M05/M07 Q0999=
Could someone in the know tell me what the current rules are re runways and snow clearing in the UK or point me in the right direction? Several UK carriers were saying their ops manuals would let them depart with some contamination on the runway so why not at MAN? Never heard what the answer was.
As Sir George has pointed out, there seemed to be disconnets in information flow - do the Airport have some sort of emergency centre for use by personnel from all the relevant agencies to coordinate actions in this type of situation? I'm sure they must have, so how about some Collaborative Decision Making? ZRH has a tremendous centre which is used on a normal basis to coordinate operations and which is a boon when exceptional situations develop and I believe MUC does something similar to minimise delays and make best use of capacity and slots.
As seahawks noted once the runway is sorted there are then taxiways and stands to clear and that's where I believe it all started going wrong. Outbounds were stuck on cleared stands as the airfield was SNOCLO and not enough vacant safe stands led to the delays mentioned earlier as the snow teams had to keep going back to the runway. Maybe there were not enough resources available, but you have to balance the pieces of snow kit available with the number of times the kit is going to be used. Any business decison contains risk and maybe the chance of this sort of thing happening once a year was a risk the Airport chose to take?
The Virgin 747 was waiting for nearly 4 hours for a stand whilst the KLM waited until 1300 for some steps and buses by which time his bogs were full. I heard a story that the Cpt threatened to pop the chutes if the buses didnt arrive shortly.
but again tries to hide this with a arrivals/departures web page that is under maitenece on a Sunday morning.
But true to form, Mr Mouser suspects a conspiricy..... Why on earth would the airport try to hide it? I'm sure there were enough p*ssed off pax on their mobiles as it was happening.
Anyway, as Norman Lamont said, "it has been a very difficult day" and at least the operation did keep going just about. Hopefully the post mortem will reveal plenty of areas for improvement by all agencies rather than a finger pointing exercise. But I wonder......Oops, sorry mickeyman must be positive -it WILL be a constructive exercise in making sure that lessons are learned and it won't happen again.
This old git's off to bed now
Suzeman
Last edited by Suzeman; 21st Dec 2009 at 07:46.
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Suzeman
Regarding regulations for snow clearance in UK - CAP168 (CAA Aerodrome Licensing) Chapter 3, Appendix 3D has the detail. Basically clear the runway full length and width to "black top" together with anti-icing to provide friction levels that are safe for aircraft use.
All the airports should do it this way. It's fine once the runway is cleared and some taxiways are available but one of the major problems are the stands many of which just can't be cleared because of parked aircraft. Also the ground handling can be treacherous in such poor conditions. Manchester is not alone in experiencing this type of situation as it's occurred many times at other airports during heavy snowfall and freezing temperatures.
Regarding regulations for snow clearance in UK - CAP168 (CAA Aerodrome Licensing) Chapter 3, Appendix 3D has the detail. Basically clear the runway full length and width to "black top" together with anti-icing to provide friction levels that are safe for aircraft use.
All the airports should do it this way. It's fine once the runway is cleared and some taxiways are available but one of the major problems are the stands many of which just can't be cleared because of parked aircraft. Also the ground handling can be treacherous in such poor conditions. Manchester is not alone in experiencing this type of situation as it's occurred many times at other airports during heavy snowfall and freezing temperatures.
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CAP168, Appendix 3D
3 Clearance Techniques
3.1 Whenever possible, the full length and width of runways should be cleared
completely. Mechanical snow clearing equipment, such as blowers, sweepers,
ploughs and rotary brushes, should form the main part of the snow clearance
equipment used at most large aerodromes. As far as practicable, clearance
techniques employed should prevent the build-up of snow banks. Where this is
unavoidable, every effort should be made to restrict snow banks to such a height and
distance apart as to ensure safe manoeuvring of the most critical aircraft, in this
context, normally using the aerodrome (see Chapter 3, paragraph 11.2.5).
3.2 Slush and associated standing water should be cleared whilst it is forming. Clearance
may have to be repeated at intervals and some interruption of operations may be
inevitable.
3.3 Chemicals used for clearing or preventing the formation of ice should be fit for the
purpose, non-toxic and should have no detrimental effects on aircraft, aerodrome
surfaces, or the friction value of aerodrome pavements. Salt is a particularly corrosive
chemical and should be employed only where its use is essential to the prevention of
contaminant build-up around edge drains.
4 Operational Priorities for the Treatment and Clearance of Movement
Areas
4.1 Aerodrome licence holders should ensure that all parts of the movement area that are
in use have adequate surface friction levels, especially during winter operations.
4.2 Where contamination exists, licence holders should determine the level of treatment
and clearance needed and the order of priority in which it should take place. The order
of priority will depend upon many factors; however, it should be a general policy to
treat and clear in the following order:
a) runway(s) in use, including rapid exits and starter extensions;
b) all runway holding areas, taxiways and aprons that are to be used;
c) all other areas and roads.
Of relevance yesterday:
5.3 Snow Banks
5.3.1 The height of snow banks and their distance apart shall be reported as soon as a situation arises that these affect safe manoeuvring by the most critical aircraft, in this context, normally using the aerodrome.
Details of acceptable snow bank profiles for
certain large aircraft are given at paragraph 11.2.5 of Chapter 3.
3 Clearance Techniques
3.1 Whenever possible, the full length and width of runways should be cleared
completely. Mechanical snow clearing equipment, such as blowers, sweepers,
ploughs and rotary brushes, should form the main part of the snow clearance
equipment used at most large aerodromes. As far as practicable, clearance
techniques employed should prevent the build-up of snow banks. Where this is
unavoidable, every effort should be made to restrict snow banks to such a height and
distance apart as to ensure safe manoeuvring of the most critical aircraft, in this
context, normally using the aerodrome (see Chapter 3, paragraph 11.2.5).
3.2 Slush and associated standing water should be cleared whilst it is forming. Clearance
may have to be repeated at intervals and some interruption of operations may be
inevitable.
3.3 Chemicals used for clearing or preventing the formation of ice should be fit for the
purpose, non-toxic and should have no detrimental effects on aircraft, aerodrome
surfaces, or the friction value of aerodrome pavements. Salt is a particularly corrosive
chemical and should be employed only where its use is essential to the prevention of
contaminant build-up around edge drains.
4 Operational Priorities for the Treatment and Clearance of Movement
Areas
4.1 Aerodrome licence holders should ensure that all parts of the movement area that are
in use have adequate surface friction levels, especially during winter operations.
4.2 Where contamination exists, licence holders should determine the level of treatment
and clearance needed and the order of priority in which it should take place. The order
of priority will depend upon many factors; however, it should be a general policy to
treat and clear in the following order:
a) runway(s) in use, including rapid exits and starter extensions;
b) all runway holding areas, taxiways and aprons that are to be used;
c) all other areas and roads.
Of relevance yesterday:
5.3 Snow Banks
5.3.1 The height of snow banks and their distance apart shall be reported as soon as a situation arises that these affect safe manoeuvring by the most critical aircraft, in this context, normally using the aerodrome.
Details of acceptable snow bank profiles for
certain large aircraft are given at paragraph 11.2.5 of Chapter 3.
For the perennial Manchester Moaners, take heart from the fact DUS was closed for 6 hours, CDG had 40% of its flights cancelled yesterday, and today is running at 50% capacity with 20% of today's flights already cancelled.
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Mouser.
Once again you excel with you anti Manchester CRAP !! : -
Manchester once again excels closeing again why! snow flury and again closes for the second time this week, but again tries to hide this with a arrivals/departures web page that is under maitenece on a Sunday morning.
Why do you post this tosh ?? its un-informed rubbish, i am begining to think (infact no i have thought for a long time) that your posts are posted mainly to get a response, have a look at the metars for yesterday morning...
EGCC 201250Z 21010KT 0900 R23R/0750 SHSN FEW003 BKN006 00/00 Q0994=
EGCC 201220Z 23014KT 1100 R23R/1100 SHSN SCT008 BKN011 00/00 Q0994=
EGCC 201150Z 22013KT 190V260 3900 -SHSN FEW006 SCT011 00/00 Q0995 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201120Z 19006KT 0800 R23R/P1500 SHSN FEW002 BKN012 M00/M00 Q0995 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201050Z 21008KT 0800 R23R/0750 SHSN FEW002 BKN013 M01/M01 Q0996=
The snow was that heavy that we were in LVP's for over two hours, would you call that a flurry ???. No airport could have stayed open in that weather, the fact is the snow was falling quicker than it could be cleared, but why take notice of the facts ??? just throw a post on that is complete crap.
Once again you excel with you anti Manchester CRAP !! : -
Manchester once again excels closeing again why! snow flury and again closes for the second time this week, but again tries to hide this with a arrivals/departures web page that is under maitenece on a Sunday morning.
Why do you post this tosh ?? its un-informed rubbish, i am begining to think (infact no i have thought for a long time) that your posts are posted mainly to get a response, have a look at the metars for yesterday morning...
EGCC 201250Z 21010KT 0900 R23R/0750 SHSN FEW003 BKN006 00/00 Q0994=
EGCC 201220Z 23014KT 1100 R23R/1100 SHSN SCT008 BKN011 00/00 Q0994=
EGCC 201150Z 22013KT 190V260 3900 -SHSN FEW006 SCT011 00/00 Q0995 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201120Z 19006KT 0800 R23R/P1500 SHSN FEW002 BKN012 M00/M00 Q0995 SNOCLO=
EGCC 201050Z 21008KT 0800 R23R/0750 SHSN FEW002 BKN013 M01/M01 Q0996=
The snow was that heavy that we were in LVP's for over two hours, would you call that a flurry ???. No airport could have stayed open in that weather, the fact is the snow was falling quicker than it could be cleared, but why take notice of the facts ??? just throw a post on that is complete crap.