BA Management (Split From T5 Thread)
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overstress said -
.
For Tata, read Open Skies. Interesting also to see my old pal Tandem suggesting that BA is in terminal decline but that he'll pull the roof in anyway. I seem to remember he said something similar about maintaining the Pension Scheme.....
(I'm very surprise the regulator doesn't pick up on the shambolic state of the maintenance as alleged by Filler Dent.)
Great post by markl again, I rather think that BA has already become a music hall joke - the BALPA problem is trying to drum up public sympathy for people with six figure salaries - it just doesn't work. Doubtless some on here will say that public support is not needed, doubtless some will think that the letter to the City will work. The City will only change its view when profits are seriously affected on a future basis, and BALPA have a habit of caving to management and calling it a win. True, a genuine strike, (if legal??
), (if fully supported
), would certainly concentrate the minds, but by then it would effectively be too late, because the damage that would do to the perception of the fare paying public would be truly gargantuan!!!! The other problem of course is that having a six figure salary is all very well, but it tends to involve a similarly matched mortgage and/or alimony payments, school fees, the loan on the Porsche, etc etc. The strike fund won't cover much of those.....
Dead interesting to watch though, I have zero symapthy for Walsh having seen BA destroy my last but one employer. Trouble is, I have negligible sympathy for BA pilots either, having watched them prioritise narrow self interest against fellow professional aviators in the same Company ownership. In Shakespearian terms, they deserve each other - a plague on both your houses!
I imagine shares in Bmi etc will be looking good whatever happens....hopefully OS will end up being publicly quoted too.
Being taken over by Tata?
For Tata, read Open Skies. Interesting also to see my old pal Tandem suggesting that BA is in terminal decline but that he'll pull the roof in anyway. I seem to remember he said something similar about maintaining the Pension Scheme.....
(I'm very surprise the regulator doesn't pick up on the shambolic state of the maintenance as alleged by Filler Dent.)
Great post by markl again, I rather think that BA has already become a music hall joke - the BALPA problem is trying to drum up public sympathy for people with six figure salaries - it just doesn't work. Doubtless some on here will say that public support is not needed, doubtless some will think that the letter to the City will work. The City will only change its view when profits are seriously affected on a future basis, and BALPA have a habit of caving to management and calling it a win. True, a genuine strike, (if legal??
), (if fully supported), would certainly concentrate the minds, but by then it would effectively be too late, because the damage that would do to the perception of the fare paying public would be truly gargantuan!!!! The other problem of course is that having a six figure salary is all very well, but it tends to involve a similarly matched mortgage and/or alimony payments, school fees, the loan on the Porsche, etc etc. The strike fund won't cover much of those.....Dead interesting to watch though, I have zero symapthy for Walsh having seen BA destroy my last but one employer. Trouble is, I have negligible sympathy for BA pilots either, having watched them prioritise narrow self interest against fellow professional aviators in the same Company ownership. In Shakespearian terms, they deserve each other - a plague on both your houses!
I imagine shares in Bmi etc will be looking good whatever happens....hopefully OS will end up being publicly quoted too.
Controversial, moi?
Always good to read a post from a balanced individual - in this case a chip on both shoulders.
What a cliche to imply that all BA pilots are on six figure salaries.
Thanks for your erudite(sic) contribution.
What a cliche to imply that all BA pilots are on six figure salaries.
Thanks for your erudite(sic) contribution.
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M.Mouse
I've read a number of your posts, and I respect your inside knowledge and your opinions. So please tell me what's wrong with this:
BA management is totally useless + Heathrow is opening more to quality competition = BA is doomed to disappear in the next 10 years.
Other airlines, with other T's & C's, will fill the void. The young pilots will more and more think of their future as being outside of BA, not within it.
BA management is totally useless + Heathrow is opening more to quality competition = BA is doomed to disappear in the next 10 years.
Other airlines, with other T's & C's, will fill the void. The young pilots will more and more think of their future as being outside of BA, not within it.
Last edited by Dysag; 8th Apr 2008 at 20:49.
Mistrust in Management
Kurtz
You seem a somewhat bitter fellow for some reason as yet unexplained. I don't work for BA but I can see the possibility that if those at the top of the foodchain maintain their positions then there is a better chance that I might maintain my own somewhat lower position.
In terms of the strike fund - just how long do you think it will take before the large institutional investors have a complete sense of humour failure. I note the share price has roughly halved since May last year and it may also be worth noting that it has more or less steadily declined. Now I readily accept that generally shares have had a rough time but they haven't all steadily decreased at the rate of BA's. I'm no expert but I would imagine that a 2 week strike say will cause real damage to BA shares and make todays price look enormous.
Now WW has already taken a big gamble with T5 and lost, (granted he was taking a gamble with other people's cash - i.e. the shareholders) but do you really think those same shareholders are going to let him have another go?
I predict that WW and a significant portion of the leadership team will be walking into the sunset within 6 months at the outside. They will of course be well rewarded for their utter failure as is the British way, but walk they will and then there is a chance that BA can again become the airline icon that it once was. If I am wrong and WW and his team remain then the future looks bleak indead for shareholders and the staff.
I wish the BA Pilots and indeed all BA staff the very best for the future.
Regards
Exeng
In terms of the strike fund - just how long do you think it will take before the large institutional investors have a complete sense of humour failure. I note the share price has roughly halved since May last year and it may also be worth noting that it has more or less steadily declined. Now I readily accept that generally shares have had a rough time but they haven't all steadily decreased at the rate of BA's. I'm no expert but I would imagine that a 2 week strike say will cause real damage to BA shares and make todays price look enormous.
Now WW has already taken a big gamble with T5 and lost, (granted he was taking a gamble with other people's cash - i.e. the shareholders) but do you really think those same shareholders are going to let him have another go?
I predict that WW and a significant portion of the leadership team will be walking into the sunset within 6 months at the outside. They will of course be well rewarded for their utter failure as is the British way, but walk they will and then there is a chance that BA can again become the airline icon that it once was. If I am wrong and WW and his team remain then the future looks bleak indead for shareholders and the staff.
I wish the BA Pilots and indeed all BA staff the very best for the future.
Regards
Exeng
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Where is MY six figure salary?
Are you senior guys and gals keeping it all for yourselves?
I love learning more about the company I work for from the well informed masses...sorry individuals. Enlightening stuff.
I suppose I should just stay quiet and watch my future disintegrate at the hands of an incompetent 'leadership team' rather than voice my concerns legally through my union.
Any other suggestions on how to procede Kurtz or do you prefer to bend over and pass back the KY?
Are you senior guys and gals keeping it all for yourselves?
I love learning more about the company I work for from the well informed masses...sorry individuals. Enlightening stuff.
I suppose I should just stay quiet and watch my future disintegrate at the hands of an incompetent 'leadership team' rather than voice my concerns legally through my union.
Any other suggestions on how to procede Kurtz or do you prefer to bend over and pass back the KY?
Last edited by JazzyKex; 8th Apr 2008 at 19:22.
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I'm with Dysag, and I'm bl00dy glad I'm not on the stage with the BA guys. The question is, which organ grinder is conducting the orchestra!
Walsh? or McAuslan?
I suspect either/both will have nothing to lose, unlike the PBI.
Walsh? or McAuslan?
I suspect either/both will have nothing to lose, unlike the PBI.
Six figures? There aren't enough hours in the year for me to earn that sort of money.
Controversial, moi?
BA management is totally useless + Heathrow is opening more to quality competition = BA is doomed to disappear in the next 10 years.
I positioned (with BA) down to the LHR recruitment centre several times for the various stages of the interview process. As things progressed and I observed BA staff from a passenger perspective and spoke to several as well I was struck how enthusiastic everybody was and, don't laugh, what a pleasure flying with BA was on the three occasions I did so. I ended up really wanting to join them. I felt very lucky to be offered a job.
In the late 80s/early 90s the job was a joy. The airline functioned well, I believe we enjoyed a reputation for being reliable and efficient and actually deserved the advertising epithet 'The world's favourite airline'. Somewhere it all slowly unravelled. The world was changing and BA's cost base and legendary overmanning had to be tackled but like so many bloated organisations (NHS anybody?) removing the deadwood which needed removing in my simple view was akin to asking turkeys to vote for Christmas.
The savage (and necessary) cost cutting, from my simple observations, has disproportionately fallen on the very areas which have the most impact on the ability of the airline to function efficiently i.e. the front line.
Slowly but surely we have become a standing joke for punctuality, lost baggage, lack of ground staff, etc, etc. This has been capped by the continuing debacle of T5. I cannot tell you how desparately sad and depressed it makes me and many of my colleagues when we think about the sorry mess which BA has become.
Militant unions can indeed share some of the blame but we had militant unions during privatisation. The difference between then and now is the quality of the people at the very top. With the exception of Rod Eddington we have suffered at the hands of two CEOs who have/had nowhere near the skills exhibited by the likes of Sir Colin Marshall or Lord King.
Under the right leadership I hope and pray that BA can once again become the leading airline that we surely were in the recent past. I do not believe it will happen while we have WW at the helm. The effort required to salvage our tattered reputation and win back the justifiably angry and disillusioned long suffering passengers is gargantuan but we do have many people such as myself who will go to the ends of the earth to achieve that goal. We cannot do it alone without strong and visionary leadership.
I am near the end of my career but I stand to lose much of my projected pension should BA fold (late joiner with less than 25 years in the still very much underfunded pension scheme).
Your statement will be sadly true if we do not get our act together, and quickly.
Other airlines, with other T & Cs, will fill the void. The young pilots will more and more think of their future as being outside of BA, not within it.
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Pass the cheese!
That's actually an exceptionally good post. Doesn't it make you depressed to see what BA management have done to their staff. You really couldn't make this up - on a personal note Mr Mouse, may I wish you and your colleagues the very best of luck. 
I worked for an airline once where I despised the management, and I know how I felt as I saw them destroy morale, hope, ambition - the managers were all BA placemen or BA wannabees. Given though that turkeys don't vote for Christmas, I just cannot see how you can clean ship and recover the situation - still, I suppose it's better to go with a bang than a whimper.
I worked for an airline once where I despised the management, and I know how I felt as I saw them destroy morale, hope, ambition - the managers were all BA placemen or BA wannabees. Given though that turkeys don't vote for Christmas, I just cannot see how you can clean ship and recover the situation - still, I suppose it's better to go with a bang than a whimper.
Skipness One Echo:
I don't work for BA, but I've held a quite a wide variety of senior management roles, and started as professional engineer in an airline.
Skippy, sorry mate, you've got it bass ackwards.
I'd like to introduce you to the "reverse pyramid" theory of management and also the concept of time horizons.
For your airline to succeed, it not only has to win new customers, it has to retain its existing customers. So having bright young things dreaming up new marketing campaigns, complete with operatic themes, is no bloody use if the product you are selling stinks to high heaven and your customers disembark thinking "never again". Arguably this is where BA, and quite a few other airlines are right now.
Now what is this "product"? The answer is that its the complete experience of the airline from the moment you book via phone or internet to the time you leave the terminal at your destination.
Who delivers the product? The answer is it's delivered by the entire organisation - so the jobs of your consultants, backroom staff etc. are safe.
Now I'd like to introduce the concept of time horizons. The people at the coalface, Cabin crew, pilots, operations, engineers, check in staff can instantly, and I mean microseconds, destroy the customers experience of BA permanently. All it takes is a scowl, or a rebuke, or just plain rudeness, or not getting a window seat, or losing bags, a dirty aircraft, or a spilled cup of coffee, a late aircraft, not getting the right meal and so on.
It's the people at the coalface who deliver your product - they are your reputation and they generate your repeat business. The time horizon of the effects on your reputation are minutes and hours.
Now lets look at middle management. You deliver a marketing campaign - six months to build it and another six months to measure its results - time horizon one year. You develop a better training program for cabin crew - time before results are measurable - say two years. You agonise over a new aircraft type - time horizon at least four years before results are seen. You get my drift?
And at the top, senior management should be making decisions that have ten year to fifteen year time horizons.
So what do we do? We "incentivise" managers with annual bonuses and encourage short term thinking by people who should be thinking long term. Then we irritate, abuse, and ignore the people who deliver the product, and who are the most accurate source of day to day information on product delivery. That's not very smart.
Now let me introduce the concept of the inverted pyramid. The CEO is actually at the point of the pyramid, but the pyramid is upside down. The CEO's job is to make sure that the people in the management roles that report to him can succeed at what they are doing.
And so it goes up the pyramid, your managers job is to make sure that the people that report to him can succeed in their tasks, and so on and so on.
If you are at the coalface, and however hard you try you can't succeed in delivering a quality product, then it is the fault of your management. It is perfectly evident from the postings here about BA management, that they do not embrace this concept, and until they do, your airline is at risk, because how ever hard you market yourselves, you are not going to get repeat business, no matter what loyalty schemes they are now dreaming up.
You got this way for reasons I've posted about on the BA/BALPA lawsuit thread. Nothing will change until the Chairman of the Board is replaced. I mean, why would an institutional investor allow someone with a tobacco industry background anywhere near a people oriented business? That is the crux of the problem because it influences the selection process for the CEO and so on down the management tree.
As for Waterside, sell it, you are going to need the money. Put your administration as close to Heathrow as you can so that your management and back office staff can actually see whats going on first hand.
"Willie Walsh". there's a lot of truth in what you say, however there needs to be a realisation that without a large number of analysts, marketeers and professionals, the only thing you'll be flying around the world is fresh air. There's a lot of bright hard working people burning the midnight oil trying to keep BA ahead of the competition. Stop bitching at people because you often don't understand what they do. It takes a varied and large team to run a 24/7 21st century people business.
Skippy, sorry mate, you've got it bass ackwards.
I'd like to introduce you to the "reverse pyramid" theory of management and also the concept of time horizons.
For your airline to succeed, it not only has to win new customers, it has to retain its existing customers. So having bright young things dreaming up new marketing campaigns, complete with operatic themes, is no bloody use if the product you are selling stinks to high heaven and your customers disembark thinking "never again". Arguably this is where BA, and quite a few other airlines are right now.
Now what is this "product"? The answer is that its the complete experience of the airline from the moment you book via phone or internet to the time you leave the terminal at your destination.
Who delivers the product? The answer is it's delivered by the entire organisation - so the jobs of your consultants, backroom staff etc. are safe.
Now I'd like to introduce the concept of time horizons. The people at the coalface, Cabin crew, pilots, operations, engineers, check in staff can instantly, and I mean microseconds, destroy the customers experience of BA permanently. All it takes is a scowl, or a rebuke, or just plain rudeness, or not getting a window seat, or losing bags, a dirty aircraft, or a spilled cup of coffee, a late aircraft, not getting the right meal and so on.
It's the people at the coalface who deliver your product - they are your reputation and they generate your repeat business. The time horizon of the effects on your reputation are minutes and hours.
Now lets look at middle management. You deliver a marketing campaign - six months to build it and another six months to measure its results - time horizon one year. You develop a better training program for cabin crew - time before results are measurable - say two years. You agonise over a new aircraft type - time horizon at least four years before results are seen. You get my drift?
And at the top, senior management should be making decisions that have ten year to fifteen year time horizons.
So what do we do? We "incentivise" managers with annual bonuses and encourage short term thinking by people who should be thinking long term. Then we irritate, abuse, and ignore the people who deliver the product, and who are the most accurate source of day to day information on product delivery. That's not very smart.
Now let me introduce the concept of the inverted pyramid. The CEO is actually at the point of the pyramid, but the pyramid is upside down. The CEO's job is to make sure that the people in the management roles that report to him can succeed at what they are doing.
And so it goes up the pyramid, your managers job is to make sure that the people that report to him can succeed in their tasks, and so on and so on.
If you are at the coalface, and however hard you try you can't succeed in delivering a quality product, then it is the fault of your management. It is perfectly evident from the postings here about BA management, that they do not embrace this concept, and until they do, your airline is at risk, because how ever hard you market yourselves, you are not going to get repeat business, no matter what loyalty schemes they are now dreaming up.
You got this way for reasons I've posted about on the BA/BALPA lawsuit thread. Nothing will change until the Chairman of the Board is replaced. I mean, why would an institutional investor allow someone with a tobacco industry background anywhere near a people oriented business? That is the crux of the problem because it influences the selection process for the CEO and so on down the management tree.
As for Waterside, sell it, you are going to need the money. Put your administration as close to Heathrow as you can so that your management and back office staff can actually see whats going on first hand.
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Hail Sunfish
No quips nor windups (sorry Sallyanne1234, and the spelling war!?) Sunfish, you have great insight, our post describes BA to the tee. Bravo, best post i've seen on here.WW
No quips nor windups (sorry Sallyanne1234, and the spelling war!?) Sunfish, you have great insight, our post describes BA to the tee. Bravo, best post i've seen on here.WW
Your previous incarnations as BAe and News24 were offensive. It seems the mods have now given you some rope. Don't hang yourself with it.
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Relax Sally
Hey Sally, relax, whether you like it or not our views are not so dissimilar. Now back to the thread, all of you who dislike the WeeWillie and feel he should resign, you can now bet on his demise! Check out http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/st...811-qqqx=1.asp
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Sunfish; AKA Rod Eddington why did you adopt these ideas when you were in charge. Shame to say i do not recall you doing much to resolve the numerous issues that existed. It is depressing that so many of you clearly ID the problems. It is also not correct to slap such paudits on the shoulders of LK and LM, do not forget that they enjoyed a free hand and a bottomless pit of monies to make the temporary fixes. As a result we are still in anaweful mess with the loaders playing games and when they finish the flight crew will start. The BA staff moto Overtime / Overseas or Off.
Most successful consumer-facing organisations under-promise and over-deliver; BA has been guilty for a long time of over-promising and under-delivering. The T5 debacle is just the most recent and most abhorrent example of that.
Mind you, I spent Monday behind the scenes at T5, and there is scope for BA and BAA to turn buck-passing into an Olympic sport....
Mind you, I spent Monday behind the scenes at T5, and there is scope for BA and BAA to turn buck-passing into an Olympic sport....