Chaos at Terminal 5
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Engineering cutbacks
Hey UKeng, are you able to shed any light on the question in 3Y's post. I think he's getting at the fact the visual side of the airline seems to be in shambles, what's life like in engineering? have you experienced the same level of cutbacks and pressure?
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biddeout,
Sorry you lost your bags.
What caused me to have one of those
moments the other day was a BA press release which said something like this.
"We are working hard to return all bags, BUT these unaccompanied bags need triple screening and so we are sending them to Milan for sorting. Its absolutely normal and part of our SOPs" This was shown (on the BBC News site at least) with a picture of a lorry load of bags being loaded onto an Alitalia flight.
Several things sprang to my mind.
If they need triple screening, why are you putting them on an aeroplane before you have allegedly triple screened them. Secondly, I am really glad that you are so expert at losing bags, that its is "absolutely normal and standard practice" to take them half way across Europe.
Who writes this stuff, or do they think we are so stoopid we just won't notice that they are trying to pull the wool over our eyes?
Sorry you lost your bags.
What caused me to have one of those
moments the other day was a BA press release which said something like this."We are working hard to return all bags, BUT these unaccompanied bags need triple screening and so we are sending them to Milan for sorting. Its absolutely normal and part of our SOPs" This was shown (on the BBC News site at least) with a picture of a lorry load of bags being loaded onto an Alitalia flight.
Several things sprang to my mind.
If they need triple screening, why are you putting them on an aeroplane before you have allegedly triple screened them. Secondly, I am really glad that you are so expert at losing bags, that its is "absolutely normal and standard practice" to take them half way across Europe.
Who writes this stuff, or do they think we are so stoopid we just won't notice that they are trying to pull the wool over our eyes?
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Passenger choice
The problem is SLF3b that BA has at least 40% of the capacity out of heathrow. No matter what they do to piss their customers off, some will be forced to go back for capacity reasons. Instead of WW and co bleating about the monopoly of BAA, I think a 40% holding in any business would also be deemed to be a Monopoly.
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If they need triple screening, why are you putting them on an aeroplane before you have allegedly triple screened them. Secondly, I am really glad that you are so expert at losing bags, that its is "absolutely normal and standard practice" to take them half way across Europe.
Who writes this stuff, or do they think we are so stoopid we just won't notice that they are trying to pull the wool over our eyes?
Who writes this stuff, or do they think we are so stoopid we just won't notice that they are trying to pull the wool over our eyes?
From the posts here, I think it is safe to conclude what has been done and the thinking behind it, and what will happen at T5 next. (Mods move this if it's in the wrong place)
1. BA has a relatively highly unionised workforce with a considerable number of demarcation games played.
2. Experience in industry is that when commissioning sophisticated new plants or systems that are designed to work with fewer staff in a unionised environment, you only take the staff your system is computed to require when operating at full efficiency.
The reason for not taking/providing more staff for the start-up period, is the very real risk, as perceived by management, that the additional staff will "embed" themselves in the new operation, thus becoming essential to it, and probably bringing old demarcations with them as well, thus destroying the labour savings that were supposed to be made.
Believe me, I've seen it done. The managers and consultants will have wanted a "pure" staff, preferably with little training and experience, so that they cannot "infect T5 with the old BA culture" - that belief is the source of the waffle from the "change management girl". The most extreme example of this behaviour was at Murdoch's Wapping plant.
Unfortunately the old BA culture also carries with it hundreds of man years of experience, which by all accounts is missing at T5.
That is why nobody listened to staff suggestions or criticism of the T5 plan - you are "old BA", not the new pure and uninfected version.
That is why there are delays and seemingly not enough staff - there aren't enough staff far enough down the learning curve at T5 to be effective, even if the calculated staff numbers are correct. Management didn't consider the effect of these teething problems on market share did they? Let alone the effect on pax.
My guess is that there will be another week of this mess before BA and BAA will realise that these aren't just "teething troubles" and that "the learning curve" isn't going to save them. At that point they will panic, start throwing money and extra people at this set of problems, develop work - arounds, and invoke the Dunkirk spirit. T5 will then "sort of" work.
The consulting groups seen to be responsible will be unceremoniously sacked and a new lot will come in to review and report on the entire system from the ground up. Many millions of dollars later, and many years from now, the systems will be redesigned and work beautifully.
Thank you all for this thread, I'll fly into somewhere in Europe this summer and if I have to go to London, I'll take the train.
1. BA has a relatively highly unionised workforce with a considerable number of demarcation games played.
2. Experience in industry is that when commissioning sophisticated new plants or systems that are designed to work with fewer staff in a unionised environment, you only take the staff your system is computed to require when operating at full efficiency.
The reason for not taking/providing more staff for the start-up period, is the very real risk, as perceived by management, that the additional staff will "embed" themselves in the new operation, thus becoming essential to it, and probably bringing old demarcations with them as well, thus destroying the labour savings that were supposed to be made.
Believe me, I've seen it done. The managers and consultants will have wanted a "pure" staff, preferably with little training and experience, so that they cannot "infect T5 with the old BA culture" - that belief is the source of the waffle from the "change management girl". The most extreme example of this behaviour was at Murdoch's Wapping plant.
Unfortunately the old BA culture also carries with it hundreds of man years of experience, which by all accounts is missing at T5.
That is why nobody listened to staff suggestions or criticism of the T5 plan - you are "old BA", not the new pure and uninfected version.
That is why there are delays and seemingly not enough staff - there aren't enough staff far enough down the learning curve at T5 to be effective, even if the calculated staff numbers are correct. Management didn't consider the effect of these teething problems on market share did they? Let alone the effect on pax.
My guess is that there will be another week of this mess before BA and BAA will realise that these aren't just "teething troubles" and that "the learning curve" isn't going to save them. At that point they will panic, start throwing money and extra people at this set of problems, develop work - arounds, and invoke the Dunkirk spirit. T5 will then "sort of" work.
The consulting groups seen to be responsible will be unceremoniously sacked and a new lot will come in to review and report on the entire system from the ground up. Many millions of dollars later, and many years from now, the systems will be redesigned and work beautifully.
Thank you all for this thread, I'll fly into somewhere in Europe this summer and if I have to go to London, I'll take the train.
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I agree Sunfish that the unionised demarcation is at the root of the problem.
Unfortunately Britain has these demarcations. Both sides (management and unions) see and treat each other as the enemy.
Although Maggie broke their backs, she did it in such a way that it did not bring unions and management together into working towards healthy business.
perhaps this was unavoidable.
The only solution would be if both both unions and management started treating each other with respect and started thinking within the framework of a long term healthy BA with healthy staff. I dont think it s likely to happen.
Respect for the staff is what management needs
a workforce within a healthy long term BA is what the drive of the unions should be
Neither is there
Unfortunately Britain has these demarcations. Both sides (management and unions) see and treat each other as the enemy.
Although Maggie broke their backs, she did it in such a way that it did not bring unions and management together into working towards healthy business.
perhaps this was unavoidable.
The only solution would be if both both unions and management started treating each other with respect and started thinking within the framework of a long term healthy BA with healthy staff. I dont think it s likely to happen.
Respect for the staff is what management needs
a workforce within a healthy long term BA is what the drive of the unions should be
Neither is there
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These are good points, but maybe there's more to it than lousy management consultants and too few people with the right culture.
Certainly industrial relations at BA is worse than awful, which can't help a project like T5, but to put it down to lack of staff doesn't ring true and in any case you hardly need a degree to be baggage handler, so what is the real problem?
I think that the 'latest' computer glitch gives the game away. The systems don't work - they're badly engineered. I know there have been broken swipe car readers, lifts and escalators, air bridges still not operating correctly, guidance system failures, baggage belts stopping, the list goes on. It all looks like engineering failures and now that BAA are admitting IT problems I think the truth will come out soon enough.
The worry is that as it looks increasingly like designed-in failings are at the root cause, how long will it take to get them fixed? Six months? A year? How much embarrassment can Heathrow stand? What a mess.
Certainly industrial relations at BA is worse than awful, which can't help a project like T5, but to put it down to lack of staff doesn't ring true and in any case you hardly need a degree to be baggage handler, so what is the real problem?
I think that the 'latest' computer glitch gives the game away. The systems don't work - they're badly engineered. I know there have been broken swipe car readers, lifts and escalators, air bridges still not operating correctly, guidance system failures, baggage belts stopping, the list goes on. It all looks like engineering failures and now that BAA are admitting IT problems I think the truth will come out soon enough.
The worry is that as it looks increasingly like designed-in failings are at the root cause, how long will it take to get them fixed? Six months? A year? How much embarrassment can Heathrow stand? What a mess.
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BA Staff Training for T5
For what its worth, to add to the rumour mill, I've come across the following comments on yacf.co.uk (The Pub).
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Just had an e-mail from someone who worked for the firm who designed the baggage system; apparently there were only a few slight problems with the equipment (it was introduced seemlessly in Sciphol) and it was all down to BA's lack of staff training and LFU(*) on the part of the staff. Apparently Gatwick North was just as shambolic also due to BA. Now watch BA blame someone else.
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As it happens, I've just had a meeting at work with a chap who's now involved on one of our projects who used to be very high up on the T5 job. Oddly, we can see it out of the window from here on a clear day.
He said that BA were informed 18 months ago that their training procedures were not up to scratch and that the handover of the infrastructure would be conditional on them accepting responsibility for their improvement.
Of course, come the day, BA took on a world class building with some of the most advanced facilities of any airport terminal anywhere in the world and their baggage handlers didn't even know where to report for work. An enormous cluster**** and not the fault of the people that built the place.
My new colleague has had to tell this story an awful lot of times in the last few days...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just had an e-mail from someone who worked for the firm who designed the baggage system; apparently there were only a few slight problems with the equipment (it was introduced seemlessly in Sciphol) and it was all down to BA's lack of staff training and LFU(*) on the part of the staff. Apparently Gatwick North was just as shambolic also due to BA. Now watch BA blame someone else.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
As it happens, I've just had a meeting at work with a chap who's now involved on one of our projects who used to be very high up on the T5 job. Oddly, we can see it out of the window from here on a clear day.
He said that BA were informed 18 months ago that their training procedures were not up to scratch and that the handover of the infrastructure would be conditional on them accepting responsibility for their improvement.
Of course, come the day, BA took on a world class building with some of the most advanced facilities of any airport terminal anywhere in the world and their baggage handlers didn't even know where to report for work. An enormous cluster**** and not the fault of the people that built the place.
My new colleague has had to tell this story an awful lot of times in the last few days...
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One has to ask what's going on. The BBC has just reported, from outside Heathrow as they are still banned from filming on the airport, that the problem was that there was not enough de-icing fluid and equipment on hand to deal with a minor snow fall. Piss up and brewery, *ponders*
118.70,
Without challenging what you say, it has been said that, on day one, the staff car park was changed without prior notice.
Any comment?
Surely a failure of the baggage system can't be entirely the fault of the user?
I stand to be corrected.
An enormous cluster**** and not the fault of the people that built the place.
Any comment?
Surely a failure of the baggage system can't be entirely the fault of the user?
I stand to be corrected.
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captain's apology
in reply to "chrisbl" ( #154)... Far from being sacked, the man should be promoted!
I've no idea what you do for a living, but I've paddled my own canoe for over 30 years....so I think I understand management principles.
As other respondents intimated, this man LED his Crew ....FROM THE FRONT. He was honest with the pax- the people who paid his wage (remember?) he totally defused the likelihood of hostility towards the flight-crew and had the courtesy to treat them as sentinent people....unlike the BA "management" who appear to treat everyone with sneering contempt whilst raping the gravy-train.
A gentleman whom i'd be pleased to fly with.....unfortunately, he's working for Bloo** A** holes...and there's no way I'd put money in their pockets.....
When Walsh & Co have pillaged as much as they can, they'll disappear and hopefully some proper management will build a proper airline around the once-proud BA name.
I've no idea what you do for a living, but I've paddled my own canoe for over 30 years....so I think I understand management principles.
As other respondents intimated, this man LED his Crew ....FROM THE FRONT. He was honest with the pax- the people who paid his wage (remember?) he totally defused the likelihood of hostility towards the flight-crew and had the courtesy to treat them as sentinent people....unlike the BA "management" who appear to treat everyone with sneering contempt whilst raping the gravy-train.
A gentleman whom i'd be pleased to fly with.....unfortunately, he's working for Bloo** A** holes...and there's no way I'd put money in their pockets.....
When Walsh & Co have pillaged as much as they can, they'll disappear and hopefully some proper management will build a proper airline around the once-proud BA name.
Mistrust in Management
My bag arrived yesterday
I went to OSL on Monday and my bag arrived in Farnham on Sunday. The fruit I had put in my bag was rotten and had spoiled some of the clothes contained within - I'm sure that is my fault for carrying fruit.
I expect nothing back from BA for the loss (I was told that the bag had to be missing for at least 30 days for it to be considered a loss) and I am told that I must produce receipts for any cost incurred during the 6 day period I was without my bag.
I have no receipts for the time I spent washing out my grunts. I have no receipts when the Pax shouted at me in fright when I entered the flight deck after going to the loo.
After this experience you can be sure that I will always be sure to advise people to avoid BA.
I expect nothing back from BA for the loss (I was told that the bag had to be missing for at least 30 days for it to be considered a loss) and I am told that I must produce receipts for any cost incurred during the 6 day period I was without my bag.
I have no receipts for the time I spent washing out my grunts. I have no receipts when the Pax shouted at me in fright when I entered the flight deck after going to the loo.
After this experience you can be sure that I will always be sure to advise people to avoid BA.
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It's good to know that safety in the air is not being compromised, but there do seem to be serviceability problems. A few weeks ago I arrived in T4 from Sydney about 30min late, but still with a good chance of making my connection to Manchester. However, what with a long wait in the queue to join the queue for the security check, then the queue to be fingerprinted and photographed so that I could take the new winding route past all the T1 shops, I arrived at gate 5 just too late for my flight.
Not a problem, they booked me onto the next one. But the aircraft for that flight was found to be unserviceable, so there was a delay while they located another one. More delay (an hour or so) while they found a bus to take the passengers off round to International Arrivals -
When we finally got on board, the Captain came on to apologise for a few minutes more delay, as engineers were working to fix a problem with one of the rear doors. Three more "another fifteen minutes" announcements, then we found out that they needed a replacement part - but no problem, they could take one of another aircraft. Then they found that the donor had already been taken to the engineering base, so someone had to go over there to get it. More delay, but the part was eventually extracted, brought over and fitted.
I should have thought that a well-run business would have kept a stock of small line-replaceable parts somewhere near where they were likely to be needed, and would not have needed even to consider cannibalism.
With T5 about as far away from engineering as is possible within the confines of Heathrow, are delays from such causes likely to add even more to the chaos?
To get back to somewhere closer to the T5 thread, I have not had the pleasure? of visiting it yet, but from the reports of people who have survived it, I get the impression that it is another triumph for the architects who consider themselves artists rather than engineers.
The final problem on that delayed flight to MAN was nothing to do with BA, or even BAA, but while we were waiting, AA managed to burst some tyres when landing at MAN and block the only operational runway. i did eventually get home, and for once my luggage arrived with me!
Not a problem, they booked me onto the next one. But the aircraft for that flight was found to be unserviceable, so there was a delay while they located another one. More delay (an hour or so) while they found a bus to take the passengers off round to International Arrivals -
When we finally got on board, the Captain came on to apologise for a few minutes more delay, as engineers were working to fix a problem with one of the rear doors. Three more "another fifteen minutes" announcements, then we found out that they needed a replacement part - but no problem, they could take one of another aircraft. Then they found that the donor had already been taken to the engineering base, so someone had to go over there to get it. More delay, but the part was eventually extracted, brought over and fitted.
I should have thought that a well-run business would have kept a stock of small line-replaceable parts somewhere near where they were likely to be needed, and would not have needed even to consider cannibalism.
With T5 about as far away from engineering as is possible within the confines of Heathrow, are delays from such causes likely to add even more to the chaos?
To get back to somewhere closer to the T5 thread, I have not had the pleasure? of visiting it yet, but from the reports of people who have survived it, I get the impression that it is another triumph for the architects who consider themselves artists rather than engineers.
The final problem on that delayed flight to MAN was nothing to do with BA, or even BAA, but while we were waiting, AA managed to burst some tyres when landing at MAN and block the only operational runway. i did eventually get home, and for once my luggage arrived with me!
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TIGS2
I also have had two Terminal 5 flights cancelled this week and endured a total delay of 26 hours!
I also discovered that the BA web site is unable to correctly handle cancelled flights and rebookings. The BA telephone lines are not answered. We had success dialling the USA reservation lines: 1-800-AIRWAYS. Need to prefix this number with the USA international dialling code.
Alternatively you could email the CEO, [email protected] or phone him directly at the BA Waterside HQ 0208 738 5111
I also discovered that the BA web site is unable to correctly handle cancelled flights and rebookings. The BA telephone lines are not answered. We had success dialling the USA reservation lines: 1-800-AIRWAYS. Need to prefix this number with the USA international dialling code.
Alternatively you could email the CEO, [email protected] or phone him directly at the BA Waterside HQ 0208 738 5111
A small positive
Well, I used T5 on 1st April of all days. Flew to Tokyo. Slight delay for baggage otherwise all went well.
It is raining cats and dogs in Kyoto but the Cherry Blossom is lovely!
It is raining cats and dogs in Kyoto but the Cherry Blossom is lovely!
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"Flapping Madly", why would Ferrovial want to assist Barajas (post 1083)? It might be involved in construction work there, but the airport is owned and operated by AENA - a nationalised concern as far as I know. And anyway, as anyone who has used the newest terminal at Barajas (Terminal 4) will know, it needs no help as it is one of the most pleasant airport terminals in the world to use, in my view, with a fast metro link to the city centre costing 2 euros (around £1.60).
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Belated thanks to Three Yellows for one of the most useful and detailed posts on this topic.
Re signage, I recall the TV documentary on T5, where the Guinea Pigs were running through T5 and comment was made on signage deficiencies somewhere in the "warrens". As for your observation on gate indications on the Monitors, it is amazing [with so many examples of "best practice" available world-wide] that T5 ended up with a system that does not apparently work.
You would think they could have come up with something that made sense to "Mr & Mrs Thickie" who apparently have never been to an airport before. [And why do I always find myself behind them in a queue?
]
Any other T5 travellers out there care to add the current Gold Standard of T5 informative posts?
Re signage, I recall the TV documentary on T5, where the Guinea Pigs were running through T5 and comment was made on signage deficiencies somewhere in the "warrens". As for your observation on gate indications on the Monitors, it is amazing [with so many examples of "best practice" available world-wide] that T5 ended up with a system that does not apparently work.
You would think they could have come up with something that made sense to "Mr & Mrs Thickie" who apparently have never been to an airport before. [And why do I always find myself behind them in a queue?
]Any other T5 travellers out there care to add the current Gold Standard of T5 informative posts?
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heathrow airport
I never go to Heathrow (or any other London airport) if I can possibly avoid it - a dirty disorganized expensive inefficient and rude place (but then so is most of England at present). Much better to go to Glasgow, Manchester, Newcastle etc if possible. Or better still fly to France or Germany for connections (I live in Taiwan). I think someone on this site has already commented about 'not being able to organize a piss up in a brewery' - the English disease.
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Another problem to watch out for
I flew out of T5 yesterday, with a mere three hour delay, but mainly caused by a problem with the biometrics system. This could be a huge issue. Since domestic and airline passengers mix airside (because, allegedly, BAA wanted everyone to pass the expensive shops usually only available to international pax), the domestic ones have to have an 'iris' picture taken. When we eventually boarded our flight to Scotland, the Captain announced that some jobsworth in BAA had decided that we might have mixed with international passengers on the jetty (it was indeed chaos), and therefore we would have to take our belongings, get off, and go to another gate to do the boarding procedure again. It was right on the other side of the terminal at a coaching gate, where the earlier flight to the same destination was still boarding – so we got mixed up with them. More confusion. We reboarded but a dozen passengers were missing: seems they had almost reached the new gate when BAA made an announcement that the flight was closing – but at the original gate! So they went back. Then the biometrics system rejected them for some reason, so they were denied boarding and the Captain announced their baggage might have to be removed. Presumably they hit the roof and insisted on travelling, which they did. A very angry, frustrated and scathing pilot announced that incredibly, "in a £4bn terminal, only five or so gates have a bimoetrics system". This one could run and run...