BMI

[Facelookbovvered]

G AWZK

You really have got the hump with baby haven't you, there is a thin line between being realistic and vindictive, you in my view have crossed that line and will not listen to reason.

You should read your posts

FR Regard baby as dead man walking

Jet2 are a bigger threat

WTF are you on about?

In fact just have a read of all your anti baby posts over the last few months, are you ACBus under another name?

I agree baby face many problems going forward, but my contacts who are in the know and see the figures see a world that is very different from planet G AWZK, if you have nothing add other than b*****k then add nothing, if you have some juice on just how dire things are in baby and when you expect them to go bust fall out of the sky, get closed, get sold then enlighten us mere mortals with your superior intelligence.

[G-AWZK]

Tell you what I'll only post fluffy, happy and cuddly stories about how well things are going for the bmi group.

Vindictive? Good grief, you need to grow a pair. The airline industry is ruthless, cut throat business and sentimentality plays no part in it. If my choice of words have offended your sensitivities, well tough.

I will keep my promise and only post happy stories from now on.

[stormin norman]

The business model of BMI has always been questioned.

Where it goes from here is anyones guess but it appears time (and investment) is running out for the current model.

[mona lot]

DLH is having to underwrite the lease on Baby's fleet of old classics.

Also, baby has been found guilty by the advertising watchdog of misleading passengers with adverts claiming up to 40% discounts on all flights.

It's hard to see how a low cost airline like Bmibaby fits in with the DLH business model

[Shrimps]

It might not fit their business model as far as bmi are concerned, but bear in mind that Lufthansa operate their own 'in house' LCC, Germanwings, so havng a low-cost carrier in the group isn't unique to the bmi side of things.

[Aero Mad]

I have watched both the BMI forum and the airline itself for sometime with great interest. From my very basic understanding (I'm not very familiar with the ins and outs of BD), the airline operates a scattering of European short-hauls from Heathrow as well as some routes to Africa, the Middle East and Asia. They all seem to come and go a bit.

From an entirely outsider's point of view (no, I don't have an axe to grind and no, I don't want your tomatos), the airline seems to lack direction. Regional and Baby at least seem to have some sort of strategic purpose, but what is BMI mainline doing with itself?

What I'm really asking is what those people in Donington Hall think their business plan is - I see it debated whether they have one, but what do they perceive it to be?

[JSCL]

@Aero Mad

I think you're right in past. LHR now is about big international connections that can't be had outside, but that's not what BMI mainline is doing. BMI mainline should be doing what BMIbaby is doing - it's LHR routes can be had out of Stansted, Gatwick, Luton and probably Southend too now, granted not all of them and the quality of experience on BMI seems lacking lately.

I think you're right, they've lost direction entirely.

[ib26uk]

I`m with Aero Mad on their point regarding bmi at Heathrow

I`ve watched bmi as an outsider - I`ve even applied to be cabin crew to no avail - I`m not bitter about it - Its just a shame to watch this airline slowly dissapear...

My point / questions IS - What was bmi like in its hey day ?

I remember their Manchester base flying routes to the carribean/US

I also sadly remember them axeing routes to CDG-AMS-BRU-GLA...

I mean no harm in my comment - Its purely an observational question...

[jdcg]

Is bmi at LHR effectively just BMED, LH group feed and one or two domestics? Might it not be more profitable just to sell the slots and just put the cash in the bank?

Re bmibaby in the East Midlands - yes, there is some residual brand loyalty to the bmi group but I suspect it's not much more than anyone but FR-type loyalty. The bmi regional flight EMA-BRU is also probably just there for Toyota at Derby / Brussels.

There must be a fundamental difficulty working for an airline business when you know there is very little opportunity for any meaningful growth...

[Facelookbovvered]

jdcg

I think if one looks at how close Jersey European came to going to the wall, before Jack Walker stuck with it and re invented it as Flybe shows that almost anything can be turn around, given the will and the money to do it. DHL certainly have the money if that all that required? but without a step change in their business plan it would be throwing good money after bad, the very fact that the bmi group still exists indicates that DHL have not given up just yet.

I would expect to major changes in the group structure during the winter period, WPS clearly had to get the bmi (British Midland brand) sorted first, that fact that it took until last month to get the entire fleet in the bmi colour scheme, some 10 years after James Hogan started the rre branding says it all, the same fact that WPS has done this in under two years at a reported cost of 30m at a time when the company was bleeding cash show that DLH are very much behind the airline, for it would have gone bust other wise!!

The group needs at best two brands British Midland and bmibaby( i would call it something else) with all short haul eEuropean services and remaining domestics operated by a enhanced bmibaby type product, the regional operation could easily be iintegrated within British Midland, the idea that some how it ddoesn't loose money because its run out of ABZ is rubbish, it runs as it does because the bulk of its work is wet lease for either SN BMI or Airbus and a few domestic services some of which has been said elsewhere are marginal at best, it has no revenue control over its wet lease work and is protected from any increase in fuel costs within this wet lease work.

I think its 75% certain that the bmi group will be around in 12 months time, but its a 100% certain won't be as we know it, Jim

Could luck to all who work there and may the force be with you.

[Skipness One Echo]

Is bmi at LHR effectively just BMED, LH group feed and one or two domestics?

Bang on, it's BMED that's the driver, the old BD "The Airline for Europe" structure has been dismantled.

at a reported cost of 30m

A one off 30m painting and rebranding cost I think?

What was bmi like in its hey day ?

Heyday predates bmi (before 1999), heyday was Diamond Service from British Midland when they made BA look like rank amateurs and the government owned flag carriers staid and unimaginative. They had the best product in the market, bit like Virgin, now that difference has gone, they're sliding.

[EI-BUD]

What was bmi like in its hey day ?

I recall when bmi started expanding across Europe from LHR and Diamond Service was the key standard. The same standard for everyone passenger regardless of the fare paid, obviously the industry has changed. However, when they came to Dublin with 8 time daily DC9/737 Jet operation there was excitement, alot of people that I knew who came into my friends Travel Agents (1989 ish) people would ask specifically for British Midland and comments would be sort of ' they are very good' it was great experience etc.

However, the magic died around the time after 9/11, there was an absolute race to the bottom and bmi lost its point of difference which a modern and trendy brand that was fast paced but quality, happening etc. Obviously LHR would always have its limiting factor of slot restrictions that would inevitably hold back bmis growth potential at that airport which they are so reliant on.

LHR is a great destination, one that is sought after, the catchment area is huge. To my mind the big issues are these, Cost Base (accept that LHR expensive to operate from, but other stuff leases and headcount to high), & Lack of Point of Difference between them and the competitve set in the London Market.

Finally, they decided upon a strategy of developing a network to oil producing countries or something like that which was to be fair a bit of a one trick pony that now seriously needs to be revisited.

If I was asked to devise a stragegy I would be thinking about Cityjet, the airline was totally ailing when AirFrance came in and took it over, but by integrating the airline into AF and utilisng centralised functions the airline became viable overnight, ((I accept it is losing money now though) but there is some merit in this re Bmi, also staff to aircraft ratio needs to be looked at.

Taking a leaf out of Jet2's book could offer some help. At Belfast Jet2 strategy is this 'filling gaps in the market to destinations not already served' this is pretty much niche territory. This has meant that Jet2 keeps in the main out of the way of the wars that ensue on over served routes.

good luck to Bmi, there is alot of potential to be something great, and there is always time, the upside is that LH is a strong parent who will think longer term.

EI-BUD

[skip.rat]

The 'heyday' of Bmi is difficult to define; it has always been by definition the underdog. It could be argued that this was one of the things that set it apart. Having established a base at LHR with a view to taking on BA on it's trunk routes, it built a network of routes (and a portfolio of slots) that gave it real potential to make a difference.
The tie-up with DLH & Star Alliance was probably the turning point in many people's view. With the potential to have losses partly underwritten by the two other major shareholders (DLH & SAS), It seems that SMB took his eye off the ball regarding the spirit in which the airline got to this point; it was now nothing to do with building a rival airline to challenge the many state airlines around Europe - it was now all about stripping anything of worth from the operation & forcing the sale to DLH at the end of 10 years. Someone's got the money now, but it's nowhere to be seen anywhere around LHR. Maybe Robert Peston would like to do another interview as he did before the chairman scuttled away without even a company announcement of his departure; except this time he could ask a few searching questions about what happened to the loot.
The merger with BMED was a positive move & generated some cash for a while; recent events have proven the saying of not to have all of your eggs in one basket.

[clareview]

bmi in its hayday

My first memories of bmi was flying Viscounts between Belfast Aldergrove and Gatwick, proclaiming itself as an alternative to the "monoply" that BA had on domestic and short European routes while fighting like mad to get in to Heathrow. This it slowly did whilst acquiring DC9's and building up rountes from LHR to Dublin (in competition with both Aer Lingus and BA), Belfast, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Liverpool (short lived), Leeds, Teeside. East Midlands, Paris (both Orly and CDG I think), Brussels, Frankfurt and Amsterdam. It also did a lot of summer charter work from virtually all UK airports to the Channel Islands. Regional routes were also operated - Aldergrove to East Midland and so on. Birmingham seems to have been a base at one time. Fleets included F27's and SD360's.

In the late 80's the B737's arrived (remember the B737-400 disaster at Kegworth). The Channel Tunnel seemed to kill Paris whilst Star Alliance membership meant Frankfurt was left to Lufthansa. Meanwhile a vigerous campaign for long haul routes from Heathrow, particularly to the US was waged but other than shortlived Chicago, Toronto (for Air Canada) and Washington (very short lived) and a couple of leisure routes all from Manchester, nothing ever came of those big plans. To me that is when the rot started to set in.

9/11 obviously did not help and left bmi struggling even to find the cash to repaint its planes in the new livery, hybrids lasting several years.

[INKJET]

I think 9/11 was the watershed

Bmi took a huge gamble on getting rights to join the the private BA/Virgin club flying to the US from LHR and ordered A330's on the back of it, in the event the didn't get the right to fly to the US from LHR, so had to cobble together a plan B which was MAN to the US, which was just a few weeks before 9/11 I remember flying to Washington with just 23 people on board!

At the same time FR took another gamble that paid off, for them by ordering hundreds of 737's and turn killed short haul flying in and out of the UK for legacy carriers, BA used to fill 757 767 out of some regional airports at the time.

Faced with a collapse in business Nigel Turner embarked on a cost reduction program that killed the reason to travel in business, remember NBM new business model? Also known as Nigel's big mistake, food in cardboard boxes!

The prices didn't come down just the quality. The one thing that didn't change was the quality of the cabin crew, then along came baby when GO moved into EMA, jeans and t-shirts became the image of bmi, as money became scarce baby followed everyone else down market and crossed the line into iffy practices, there after bmi was all ways referred to in the press as " bmi the low cost airline" in over seas markets no one knew what bmi meant or stood for, hence the slow rebranding of British Midland International, it is now very much a quality product. Routes like NCE will go well for bmi and should not have been culled in the first place.

At least the vast majority of the old management have been either pensioned off or encouraged to work somewhere East of the UK across all three Group companies.

[AirLCY]

LHRNCE

I'm not so sure this will work well, they cut it because it made a loss, so double daily in Winter is hardly going to work. BA cut from 7 321's to 5 319's from LHR and Easyjet cut half their capacity from LGW etc.

[G-AWZK]

Have some good news...

baby is the best

[FR-]

- Sample proportions for bmi regional, bmi British Midland and bmi baby are averaged across all three airlines.

[INKJET]

FR read the notes

Bmibaby were just ahead of Ryanair in the low cost league,sample size was around the 10th of FR but baby also operate into some lot restricted airports such as CDG MUC AMS to name a few, in any event both were well ahead of Jet2 who performance is not good considering the low utilisation of their fleets.

[FR-]

Have to agree with you about jet2. God knows why EMA wants another based unit to be parked up half the time, without even bringing in any new routes.