BAA strike threat.
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So If BAA Staff do strike; say Security and Fire Service is unmanned and the Airports are forced to close for a day. How secure are they going to be when they reopen?
The Fire Service is another matter - always been more 'solid' union-wise. In the past, they were in a separate union and the majority view was that their T's & C's were sufficient for them not to take industrial action to secure any improvement. Maybe now they do feel under threat. THEY are the ones whose absence might preclude Public Transport flights, not Security. Incidentally, splitting hairs, but the word 'closing' isn't strictly appropriate. There might well be a number of aircraft movements, positioning and engineering flights for instance, not requiring Fire or Security cover. Doesn't make much difference if you're a passenger on a cancelled flight, I guess!
Incidentally, I don't think that any Army, local authority or RAF fire appliances can meet the requirements for CAT 9 fire cover, which is what would be required at Heathrow and Gatwick. Just maybe the appliances at Brize Norton or Lyneham, but of course they have their own needs. You won't be seeing Green Goddesses on the run at LHR or LGW!
TheOddOne
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TOO:
Aha, well actually, I'm rostered to work on the morning of the 7th............
londonmet:
Let me get this straight.......You cannot 'fathom the thought process' of someone who doesn't want to 'roll over and accept it'?
Aha, well actually, I'm rostered to work on the morning of the 7th............
londonmet:
It is that fact that I can't fathom the thought process of how anyone can think it to be a good idea to bring airports to a stand still.
Roll over and accept it.
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Most importantly for BAA mis managers is that the shops will remain open
As usual when two forces like this collide there will only be losers.
Ferrovial had a rush of blood to the head when they decided to buy BAA plc and now that they can see exactly what ir was they bought they are hell bent on recovering the situation by lowering the cost base at any cost.
To the simple everything looks easy.
Bouenos fortunas
Sir George Cayley
As usual when two forces like this collide there will only be losers.
Ferrovial had a rush of blood to the head when they decided to buy BAA plc and now that they can see exactly what ir was they bought they are hell bent on recovering the situation by lowering the cost base at any cost.
To the simple everything looks easy.
Bouenos fortunas
Sir George Cayley
Oops pardon me
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Strike
Free at last.....we said a strike wouldn't happen with Virgin Cabin crew and how wrong we were. I guess the government may step in but knowing the lack of forethought Gordon Brown's muppets have, it wouldn't happen until the eleventh hour when everybody's travel plans would have been stuffed.
One thought I have had is if the airports do shut then no one at all would be allowed in due to lack of security staff. From an engineereing point of view, that would leave an awful lot of aircraft without maintainance on their down time. Once the strike was over, the knock on effect would no doubt last for days.
I do hope sense will prevail but we are talking about the BAA here!!
Coop & Bear
One thought I have had is if the airports do shut then no one at all would be allowed in due to lack of security staff. From an engineereing point of view, that would leave an awful lot of aircraft without maintainance on their down time. Once the strike was over, the knock on effect would no doubt last for days.
I do hope sense will prevail but we are talking about the BAA here!!
Coop & Bear
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Incidentally, I don't think that any Army, local authority or RAF fire appliances can meet the requirements for CAT 9 fire cover, which is what would be required at Heathrow and Gatwick.
I wonder just what percentage of BAA Security staff are Unite members..
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If this is Ferrovial's policy on pensions what the hell is their policy on de-icing going to be?
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Well if there is no security on the 7th,it could be interesting getting to work.I might have to practice the Steve McQueen 
king routine to leap the fence.Can't see us just walking in unchecked.
king routine to leap the fence.Can't see us just walking in unchecked.
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I sympathise, but it really is a case of "welcome to the real world". Like it or loathe it, the market dictates these sorts of decisions and it's rampant in every industry ... it's only a matter of time.
Bottom line: cost is everything nowadays. And as much as I'd love for EVERYONE to have decent remuneration packages that include the likes of final salary pension schemes, it's just not a reality anymore as costs are squeezed and margins are increased.
IMO, the government(s) have done little to facilitate the industry as a whole - they seem bent on appeasing so called "green" doers to win votes. let me give you an example: in Ireland, I understand a large portion of the green party took the liberty of indulging in a visit to the recent Global talks miles away ... ahem... carbon footprint - I rest my case! And as I understand it, security policies are dictated to airport operators who then have to foot the expensive bills.
Where's the balance here for operators (airports and airlines) when ultimately they have to make a profit. Something has to give. 411A makes a good point, I avoid LHR and LGW for the same reason .. result is ... business away from UK to Europe. And Woofrey also makes an interesting point ... the days of nurtured industry relevant staff making decisions leans to highly (overly) paid businessmen and women in the interests of the shareholder in a lot of cases. These shareholders (I might add), are most of us here with pensions that are held up in companies such as BAA and airlines. If THEY don't perform, we all lose out.
Interesting dilema
Again, I do sympathise, with BAA and UNITE. Somehow I think, between them both, someone dropped the ball on communication!!!
One word for UNITE - holding me to ramsom won't work.
Bottom line: cost is everything nowadays. And as much as I'd love for EVERYONE to have decent remuneration packages that include the likes of final salary pension schemes, it's just not a reality anymore as costs are squeezed and margins are increased.
IMO, the government(s) have done little to facilitate the industry as a whole - they seem bent on appeasing so called "green" doers to win votes. let me give you an example: in Ireland, I understand a large portion of the green party took the liberty of indulging in a visit to the recent Global talks miles away ... ahem... carbon footprint - I rest my case! And as I understand it, security policies are dictated to airport operators who then have to foot the expensive bills.
Where's the balance here for operators (airports and airlines) when ultimately they have to make a profit. Something has to give. 411A makes a good point, I avoid LHR and LGW for the same reason .. result is ... business away from UK to Europe. And Woofrey also makes an interesting point ... the days of nurtured industry relevant staff making decisions leans to highly (overly) paid businessmen and women in the interests of the shareholder in a lot of cases. These shareholders (I might add), are most of us here with pensions that are held up in companies such as BAA and airlines. If THEY don't perform, we all lose out.
Interesting dilema
Again, I do sympathise, with BAA and UNITE. Somehow I think, between them both, someone dropped the ball on communication!!!
One word for UNITE - holding me to ramsom won't work.
Last edited by ap9dm1; 23rd Dec 2007 at 00:35.
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Just another reason to avoid UK airlines and airports...
Hello, KLM-AirFrance (AMS/CDG) Lufthansa (FRA) etc..
I personally travel a lot through Europe to/from flying assignments, and I never ever use LHR or LGW nor, for that matter, any UK carrier.
I'm sure I am not alone.
Hello, KLM-AirFrance (AMS/CDG) Lufthansa (FRA) etc..
I personally travel a lot through Europe to/from flying assignments, and I never ever use LHR or LGW nor, for that matter, any UK carrier.
I'm sure I am not alone.
I take it then that you dont travel to europe much then 411A? - or did you sleep through the 2 weeks of disruption in France last month?
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....the 2 weeks of disruption in France last month?
As for LHR/LGW...never get my business, nor do UK airlines.
We advise our customers and suppliers likewise.
Besides, on LH, the hosties are much more attentive...
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ap9dm1
If costs are squeezed to increase margins, then the money is STILL there and going somewhere. That is the point. Someone somewhere will be getting richer at the cost of new BAA employees today and existing employees in a few years.
If costs are squeezed to increase margins, then the money is STILL there and going somewhere. That is the point. Someone somewhere will be getting richer at the cost of new BAA employees today and existing employees in a few years.
411A - I agree with you there!
I normally fly from Birmingham (thankfully non-BAA) with Lufthansa, but a couple of weeks ago I had the misfortune to have to travel from that building site slum called Heathrow. Although still with LH, of course.
It will take years, if not decades to bring Heathrow up to the standard of even a small German airport such as Dusseldorf. The management will have to accept that there is no quick solution - and no quick profit for any shareholders. So the one prime asset which they do have, a loyal and experienced workforce, must not be treated shabbily by some shiny-suited newcomers.
I normally fly from Birmingham (thankfully non-BAA) with Lufthansa, but a couple of weeks ago I had the misfortune to have to travel from that building site slum called Heathrow. Although still with LH, of course.
It will take years, if not decades to bring Heathrow up to the standard of even a small German airport such as Dusseldorf. The management will have to accept that there is no quick solution - and no quick profit for any shareholders. So the one prime asset which they do have, a loyal and experienced workforce, must not be treated shabbily by some shiny-suited newcomers.
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Litebulbs ... money goes on investment, expansion, increased security costs, wages, etc. And it's badly needed when you see the state of some of the airports, the London airports are a disgrace in particular.
No point having a fabulous salary and pension if it costs so much that the company can't keep investing to keep up in the market. It would eventually close with a loss of business and jobs. It simple market rules (as much as it hurts).
Of course, there are a lot fat cats making rediculous sums on the back of it all - that sticks in my throat.
No point having a fabulous salary and pension if it costs so much that the company can't keep investing to keep up in the market. It would eventually close with a loss of business and jobs. It simple market rules (as much as it hurts).
Of course, there are a lot fat cats making rediculous sums on the back of it all - that sticks in my throat.
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I sympathise, but it really is a case of "welcome to the real world".
The real world where the Chancellor of the Exchequer 10 years ago changed the rules for pension funds to their detriment ?
The real world where the MP's who are probably aghast at the impact a strike could have on UK plc, all have final salary index linked pensions ?
Perhaps that's why there is an issue here. Maybe the "real world" just ain't a really good place to be for everyone, and perhaps that's why some think it's worth protecting, or fighting for, what they've got.
pensions that are held up in companies such as BAA
Aside from the pensions issue, what I'm also reading among the comments here is a fundamental misunderstanding on the way BAA is regulated - virtually told how much money it can make by the CAA. It is set a fixed rate of return based on various forecasts, therefore in order to beat that it has to earn more from non regulated sources ( shops ! ), or cut costs, and the regulator keeps an eye on both of these as well to ensure service quality isn't compromised ( hence the service quality rebates the airlines get paid ).
The problem is, a lot of people, including some analysts, city boys and the new owners don't seem ( by their actions ) to comprehend this - there isn't a quick buck to be made here !
The only way the airports have a chance to become more profitable for their owners is when they are deregulated and sold off.
Then you'll be in another world.....
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So will several airlines be operating through the regional airports over this period such as Cardiff & Birmingham ?
I think the last time there was industrial action Virgin planned to operate some flights ex CWL to the States - does anyone know if this is the plan this time or any ideas on who may take this option ?
I think the last time there was industrial action Virgin planned to operate some flights ex CWL to the States - does anyone know if this is the plan this time or any ideas on who may take this option ?
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Is that the real world where millions of people haven't made proper provision for their future through ignorance and/or shortsightedness by ensuring they have an adequate pension fund ?
The real world where the Chancellor of the Exchequer 10 years ago changed the rules for pension funds to their detriment ?
The real world where the MP's who are probably aghast at the impact a strike could have on UK plc, all have final salary index linked pensions ?
Perhaps that's why there is an issue here. Maybe the "real world" just ain't a really good place to be for everyone, and perhaps that's why some think it's worth protecting, or fighting for, what they've got.
No, there are no pensions held in BAA stock - that stock was sold at a profit when BAA was taken over.
Now, where do I stand and fight
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Are you sure? BAA is (was) listed on the LSE (I don't know the consequences of the Ferrovial takeover). So pensions and savings will be affected (at least in part) by it's performance.
Ferrovial bought all the shares; none left. Woofrey is quite right.
However, the BAA pension fund IS presently in a reasonably healthy state (i.e. with a quite small 'black hole'). If it were to close to new members, but not be interfered with, then there is a good chance that it could meet its commitments to present members. Remember, as the years roll on, the numbers in the scheme get smaller and smaller, so the pot can afford to shrink.
On the other hand, it'll need to keep going for around another 80 years, assuming a new recruit currently aged 20 lives to be a hundred. I think that the aviation industry will be long gone by then, with the oil situation etc.
Cheers,
TheOddOne
TheOddOne