MD80 plane crash in Phuket, Sep. 07
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Foreign commercial pilots to face tougher scrutiny
Foreign commercial pilots will face tougher scrutiny if they want to work for airlines and civil air service providers based in Thailand.
The new regulations are meant to prevent less qualified pilots from working for any Thailand-based air service providers as well as flying private aircraft as part of a new bid to improve flight safety.
The regulation, prepared by the Department of Civil Aviation (DCA), will be published as a royal decree no later than 90 days from now. It was prompted by recent serious incidents in Thai skies that involved foreign pilots.
On Sept 16 last year, the budget carrier One-Two-Go Airlines' MD-82 jetliner went down in strong winds and heavy rain after attempting to land at Phuket Airport. The crash left 89 dead and 41 injured. On Dec 15, an MD-80 flown by One-Two-Go was in a ''near-collision'' with Nok Airlines' Boeing 737-400 over Nakhon Sawan.
All of One-Two-Go's pilots were recruited from overseas. Many of them were from Indonesia, where air safety records are among the world's worst.
According to DCA deputy director-general Wuthichai Singhamanee, foreign pilots will be required to learn about the Thai aviation laws. They will be tested on regulations and their ability to communicate well in the cockpit.
Authorities say foreign pilots must undergo Cockpit Crew Resource Management (CRM) training to overcome any possible cultural differences between them and those under their command.
The CRM requirement became essential after DCA found in its inspections that Thailand-based airlines that employ foreign pilots suffered from these problems, thus posing a potential danger.
Furthermore, pilot competency in flying certain aircraft would be subject to closer scrutiny by the DCA, which will no longer authorise permits by merely looking at documents submitted or matching them with licences issued by authorities in other countries.
This means that DCA officials would personally cross-check a pilot's competency in flying a certain aircraft in his last session on a flight simulator, Mr Wuthichai told the Bangkok Post.
The additional requirements are not unique. Aviation regulators in countries including India, China and Malaysia have also applied them to foreign pilots.
The new regulations are likely to affect three Thailand-based airlines _ One-Two-Go and its parent Orient Thai Airlines, as well as Phuket Airlines _ whose fleets are flown almost entirely by foreign pilots. Their pilots are Indonesians, Australians and Filipinos.
Airlines in Thailand use foreign pilots partly because of a shortage of Thai pilots trained to fly specific aircraft and partly because they are are cheaper to hire. Most Thailand-based airlines use Thai pilots. The cockpit staff of Thai Airways International, which numbers nearly 1,400, are exclusively Thai.
Thai pilots are not subject to the new DCA rules because they are all trained in Thai aviation law.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/Business/06Mar2008_biz36.php
The new regulations are meant to prevent less qualified pilots from working for any Thailand-based air service providers as well as flying private aircraft as part of a new bid to improve flight safety.
The regulation, prepared by the Department of Civil Aviation (DCA), will be published as a royal decree no later than 90 days from now. It was prompted by recent serious incidents in Thai skies that involved foreign pilots.
On Sept 16 last year, the budget carrier One-Two-Go Airlines' MD-82 jetliner went down in strong winds and heavy rain after attempting to land at Phuket Airport. The crash left 89 dead and 41 injured. On Dec 15, an MD-80 flown by One-Two-Go was in a ''near-collision'' with Nok Airlines' Boeing 737-400 over Nakhon Sawan.
All of One-Two-Go's pilots were recruited from overseas. Many of them were from Indonesia, where air safety records are among the world's worst.
According to DCA deputy director-general Wuthichai Singhamanee, foreign pilots will be required to learn about the Thai aviation laws. They will be tested on regulations and their ability to communicate well in the cockpit.
Authorities say foreign pilots must undergo Cockpit Crew Resource Management (CRM) training to overcome any possible cultural differences between them and those under their command.
The CRM requirement became essential after DCA found in its inspections that Thailand-based airlines that employ foreign pilots suffered from these problems, thus posing a potential danger.
Furthermore, pilot competency in flying certain aircraft would be subject to closer scrutiny by the DCA, which will no longer authorise permits by merely looking at documents submitted or matching them with licences issued by authorities in other countries.
This means that DCA officials would personally cross-check a pilot's competency in flying a certain aircraft in his last session on a flight simulator, Mr Wuthichai told the Bangkok Post.
The additional requirements are not unique. Aviation regulators in countries including India, China and Malaysia have also applied them to foreign pilots.
The new regulations are likely to affect three Thailand-based airlines _ One-Two-Go and its parent Orient Thai Airlines, as well as Phuket Airlines _ whose fleets are flown almost entirely by foreign pilots. Their pilots are Indonesians, Australians and Filipinos.
Airlines in Thailand use foreign pilots partly because of a shortage of Thai pilots trained to fly specific aircraft and partly because they are are cheaper to hire. Most Thailand-based airlines use Thai pilots. The cockpit staff of Thai Airways International, which numbers nearly 1,400, are exclusively Thai.
Thai pilots are not subject to the new DCA rules because they are all trained in Thai aviation law.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/Business/06Mar2008_biz36.php
Last edited by stickyb; 6th Mar 2008 at 01:35. Reason: take out garbage from c/p
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Over 500 signatures
We've gathered over 500 signatures - world-wide - in support of a real investigation into the crash of OG 269, and we're still gaining momentum. Also, I've had a conversation with the NTSB. It was interesting. They seem to be keeping an eye on the petition now.
We appreciate everyone who has signed so far. If you haven't signed yet, please do! www.InvestigateUdom.com
Many thanks!
We appreciate everyone who has signed so far. If you haven't signed yet, please do! www.InvestigateUdom.com
Many thanks!
As a slight aside, is it the remains of the aircraft in question that are hidden under the tarpaulin on the grassed area opposite the terminal building and ramp in HKT, or something else entirely?
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Post-crash Event Timeline
For more information on events since the crash, see the Post-crash event timeline at: http://investigateudom.com/timeline.php
Please let others know. Many thanks.
Please let others know. Many thanks.
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Originally Posted by barry lloyd
As a slight aside, is it the remains of the aircraft in question that are hidden under the tarpaulin on the grassed area opposite the terminal building and ramp in HKT, or something else entirely?
The last I heard that's what it is under the tarpaulin. I'll try to remember to have a look tomorrow.
@ InvestigateUdom:
I see you are in the US. That's probably just as well. If you were in Thailand, I'd suggest you got your maid to start your car in the mornings.
Also, I can no longer access this site from Thailand without using a proxy (TOR). Surely, Udom's influence is not so great as to get PPRuNe banned? Anyone else in Thailand able to read the forum normally?
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LordLucan: Thanks for the advice. I'll keep my eyes open just the same.
Everyone:
I read recently that the previous commercial crash in also had an investigation that never completed. Is this true? Can someone provide details?
Thanks again. And keep those signatures coming.
Everyone:
I read recently that the previous commercial crash in also had an investigation that never completed. Is this true? Can someone provide details?
Thanks again. And keep those signatures coming.
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(2nd reply, but I don't see the 1st one posting)
LordLucan: Thanks for the warning. I'll be cautious.
PPRuNe Community: I read someplace that the previous commercial crash in Thailand also had an investigation that turned up no results. Can someone fill me in on that?
LordLucan: Thanks for the warning. I'll be cautious.
PPRuNe Community: I read someplace that the previous commercial crash in Thailand also had an investigation that turned up no results. Can someone fill me in on that?
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As a slight aside, is it the remains of the aircraft in question that are hidden under the tarpaulin on the grassed area opposite the terminal building and ramp in HKT, or something else entirely?
High security for the site (green tarpaulin visible on left):
Maintaining the wreckage in pristine condition:
(note scavenging bird flying off in first picture, centre right)
Last edited by LordLucan; 14th Mar 2008 at 18:33.
Just as I thought! I was through there a couple of times last week, and couldn't help noticing and wondering...
Thanks for the photos, and if the Feds ever catch you and extradite you to the UK, (They got that Russian guy Viktor Bout last week!), I'll be a character witness for you
Thanks for the photos, and if the Feds ever catch you and extradite you to the UK, (They got that Russian guy Viktor Bout last week!), I'll be a character witness for you
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So if the news media really wanted something to report then they would start here, jumping on the FAA is the least of the worries.
Its either comply or goodbye.
Rules and regs mean nothing.
Its either move the aircraft or you have no job.
Regulations written by Boeing and airbus as a guide, does not apply to you as operating crew.
Famous last words from management, we are not a normal airline so we dont have to follow there regulations.
sound familiar?
Beating a dead horse here!
Nothing will ever be done.
Even after doing this collecting your salary is impossible.
But they expect this for continued employment.
Its either comply or goodbye.
Rules and regs mean nothing.
Its either move the aircraft or you have no job.
Regulations written by Boeing and airbus as a guide, does not apply to you as operating crew.
Famous last words from management, we are not a normal airline so we dont have to follow there regulations.
sound familiar?
Beating a dead horse here!
Nothing will ever be done.
Even after doing this collecting your salary is impossible.
But they expect this for continued employment.
Last edited by Earl; 14th Mar 2008 at 23:31.
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Earlier news suppression
Re the failure of the authorities to come to any public conclusions, see the thread for the TG Surat Thani crash a few years back. No news is - typical.
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Re PPRuNe Access in Thailand
No problems at the moment in accessing the site - and incidentally, beware using proxies (or at least admitting to using to using them), because I believe that is now illegal thanks to our freedom-loving non-colonised (apartfromtheJapanesewhomwedon'tmention) masters.
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Petition available in Farsi, Hebew and Thai
We're now available in Farsi, Hebrew and Thai, and we've got over 700 signatures world-wide. Please forward information about our petition to people who would want to know.
Thank you again for signing and all other help.
Thank you again for signing and all other help.
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For those who live and work in these parts (SE Asia) the situation is simple.
Do not expect western (UK/USA/Oz/Europe) rules to apply.
Here problems/accidents are brushed under the carpet and blamed on outsiders
Do not expect western (UK/USA/Oz/Europe) rules to apply.
Here problems/accidents are brushed under the carpet and blamed on outsiders
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In general, those of us from western countries travel only to vacation destinations where we believe we are safe. The tourists on that airplane weren't doing chopper training or eminently planning to climb Everest. They were traveling to an exotic, supposedly tourist-friendly, beach destination to sit in the sun and enjoy the unspoiled beauty.
Those tourists died because One-Two-Go/Orient Thai is a bait and switch operation. Based on the advertisements and cover of the government, those passengers believed they were getting on a safe airline, even though they were not.
There was no public information to suggest otherwise. If that information had been available, most of those tourists would have chosen a different airline or a different beautiful beach - possibly in a different country.
Those tourists died because One-Two-Go/Orient Thai is a bait and switch operation. Based on the advertisements and cover of the government, those passengers believed they were getting on a safe airline, even though they were not.
There was no public information to suggest otherwise. If that information had been available, most of those tourists would have chosen a different airline or a different beautiful beach - possibly in a different country.
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I take it the reference to the Thai DCA is the Department of Corrupt Activities?.
The investigation of this crash will go the same way at the one into the Thai A.300 crash at Surat Thani in December 1998,I.E.nowhere.
The investigation of this crash will go the same way at the one into the Thai A.300 crash at Surat Thani in December 1998,I.E.nowhere.
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Bait and Switch
One item was offered (the bait) but another actually provided (via a switch). See wikipedia for examples.
IMO, Udom and the DCA convinced those tourists they were offering a flight on an airline with acceptable safety measures and reasonable government oversight, but what they sold was - well you've all said it here - an accident looking to happen. And it happened.
IMO, Udom and the DCA convinced those tourists they were offering a flight on an airline with acceptable safety measures and reasonable government oversight, but what they sold was - well you've all said it here - an accident looking to happen. And it happened.