FlyBE - 5
Join Date: Jan 2004
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No. The aircraft you were on wasn't "VFR." VFR is a set of operational rules governing how and where the aeroplane is flown, and has no impact on the physical characteristics of the aircraft. Commercial flights are generally operated under IFR, especially on a route such as this.
VFR/IFR is in no way associated with where passengers sit on the aeroplane!
Of course this being PPRuNe, you'll have a grasp of what VFR & IFR are, n'est-ce pas?
VFR/IFR is in no way associated with where passengers sit on the aeroplane!
Of course this being PPRuNe, you'll have a grasp of what VFR & IFR are, n'est-ce pas?
Join Date: May 2002
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Flightrider
I think you misunderstood my point! I totaly agree that the crew should remain profesional and deal best they can with the situation they are left with! I think you will find that all crew will maintain this.
My point been that crew hate delays more than pax! Ask one next time you fly the dramas delays also create for the crew! You can rest assured any crew will be doing there upmost to depart the flight on time, even in many ocasions forgoing there breaks so as not to delay pax! Does that sound like the rubbish customer service you have come to expect? You try working 10 hours plus without a break!
But unfortunately delays happen for a massive variety of reasons, It does not mean the crew should be shouted at or belittled by angry pax! Or insulted by people like ANNE whos inulting comments about the pilots glasses are unforgivable and had that comment been made to me I would have had that individual removed! I really dont understand why peoples morals and attitudes change completely when they arrive at an airport!
I think you misunderstood my point! I totaly agree that the crew should remain profesional and deal best they can with the situation they are left with! I think you will find that all crew will maintain this.
My point been that crew hate delays more than pax! Ask one next time you fly the dramas delays also create for the crew! You can rest assured any crew will be doing there upmost to depart the flight on time, even in many ocasions forgoing there breaks so as not to delay pax! Does that sound like the rubbish customer service you have come to expect? You try working 10 hours plus without a break!
But unfortunately delays happen for a massive variety of reasons, It does not mean the crew should be shouted at or belittled by angry pax! Or insulted by people like ANNE whos inulting comments about the pilots glasses are unforgivable and had that comment been made to me I would have had that individual removed! I really dont understand why peoples morals and attitudes change completely when they arrive at an airport!
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Anne Insider
How much does your company value your time? If you were delayed 2 hrs and this has cost you lost appointments etc. and you value your time at say £500 per hour, then go back to your employer with these facts and simply choose another airline to fly with.
The extra say £50 to fly with another airline is then irrelevant!
There are different ways to get what you want
How much does your company value your time? If you were delayed 2 hrs and this has cost you lost appointments etc. and you value your time at say £500 per hour, then go back to your employer with these facts and simply choose another airline to fly with.
The extra say £50 to fly with another airline is then irrelevant!
There are different ways to get what you want
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Of course this being PPRuNe, you'll have a grasp of what VFR & IFR are, n'est-ce pas? 
I have tried to explain, in a civil manner, the workings of the trim wheelbarrow and others that of VFR. It would appear that ANNE has not listened to those 'announcements' either.
Whilst we very much appreciate the business of our passengers, which pays our salaries, some we could be better off without.
I am 110% behind good customer service but can well do without those lacking manners - either crew member or passenger!
Join Date: Dec 2006
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I will try to get some more solid information about the VFR run.
I can understand why you are skeptical about the VFR run, but i have heard of Flybe pilots go with it before now.
Although if i remember righty it was without passengers.
I will also look into the VFR charts for flybe a/c, they must have a backup, what if the tech problem is question happened mid flight, div to the nearist airport or use said charts?
Pilot would answer this question alot easier than I.
I can understand why you are skeptical about the VFR run, but i have heard of Flybe pilots go with it before now.
Although if i remember righty it was without passengers.
I will also look into the VFR charts for flybe a/c, they must have a backup, what if the tech problem is question happened mid flight, div to the nearist airport or use said charts?
Pilot would answer this question alot easier than I.
Supercharged PPRuNer
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The only time I've ever flown a Dash VFR was for base training. I can't imagine many of my colleagues - in fact make that any of my colleagues - taking one for a VFR cross-country, let alone with passengers on board. We do not carry VFR charts, and if we were unable to continue a flight under IFR (note continue, not commence) then it would have to be a seriously bad day in terms of failures, so bad in fact that I'm struggling to even think of a scenario. As all the other Flybe pilots have said, I suspect someone somewhere is getting a bit confused with the terminology.
Anne
I'm probably wasting my breath here, but just for a bit of perspective - I have operated a grand total of 238 flights over the last 6 months. Three of them were delayed by more than an hour, of which one was caused by a series of baggage and check-in errors, and two were technical faults which meant the aircraft could not operate safely until it was fixed. Of the other 99% of flights, the vast majority arrived either on time or early.
And for anyone who believes that sitting in the wrong row will not affect the balance of a long and thin aeroplane, try this experiment. Take two small kids to the park and balance them on either end of a see-saw. Then get one of them to move 6 inches and note the effect. It is exactly the same principle. We don't ask people to move for a laugh, we do it to ensure the aircraft is in trim (i.e. balanced) and thus safe to fly.
Anne
I'm probably wasting my breath here, but just for a bit of perspective - I have operated a grand total of 238 flights over the last 6 months. Three of them were delayed by more than an hour, of which one was caused by a series of baggage and check-in errors, and two were technical faults which meant the aircraft could not operate safely until it was fixed. Of the other 99% of flights, the vast majority arrived either on time or early.
And for anyone who believes that sitting in the wrong row will not affect the balance of a long and thin aeroplane, try this experiment. Take two small kids to the park and balance them on either end of a see-saw. Then get one of them to move 6 inches and note the effect. It is exactly the same principle. We don't ask people to move for a laugh, we do it to ensure the aircraft is in trim (i.e. balanced) and thus safe to fly.
Join Date: Oct 2008
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It would not have been VFR either with or without passengers.
It may have been a requirement to remain VMC i.e clear of cloud or icing - but even then it would be unlikely for any pilot to accept an aircraft to be flown through the the airspace in question unless it was a gin clear day.
You can be VFR in VMC, IFR in VMC, IFR in IMC but not VFR in IMC....
Clear?
Should be to the pilots?
It may have been a requirement to remain VMC i.e clear of cloud or icing - but even then it would be unlikely for any pilot to accept an aircraft to be flown through the the airspace in question unless it was a gin clear day.
You can be VFR in VMC, IFR in VMC, IFR in IMC but not VFR in IMC....
Clear?
Should be to the pilots?
Possibly an FMS fault, in which case the flight would have been replanned to follow ground base navigation aids and to remain clear of B-RNAV airspace. Not VFR, but outside of controlled airspace/airways. RAS as opposed to RCS
Having said that, could be one a myriad of things.
Having said that, could be one a myriad of things.
Last edited by Cyclone733; 12th Oct 2008 at 20:49.
Join Date: Apr 2008
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be from bhx
flightstats.com
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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TechProb, ref VFR
Flybe, as I suspect all other operators, occassionally position flights (sometimes with pax, more often empty) from one airport to another, which is not a normal passenger route. I've flown perhaps a dozen or so myself.
If this route is very short (or if the a/c has a technical issue such as a failure of the pressurisation system), then this flight will take place outside of the 'normal' airways system, and very possibly outside of what is termed controlled airspace. I would bet my meagre salary and rapidly reducing pension that this is exactly what happened on the occassion in question.
This does not make it a VFR flight. The a/c still receives a radar service from a suitable ATC unit, and still follows an instrument flight plan using instrument navigation aids. The only charts contained on the a/c are for IFR flying.
Whilst we may very well be able to see the world outside passing by, and know exactly where we are, there is no point at which we fly purely by visual references until we are making the approach to the destination airfield, at which point it is occassionally an enjoyable and refreshing change to request a visual approach from the airfield ATC unit.
As for the other stuff, well play nice everyone. This isn't Zimbabwe and everybody is entitled to an opinion. The passenger paid their money and is perfectly entitled to give their feedback. You're all supposedly adults, so like it or lump it.
Flybe, as I suspect all other operators, occassionally position flights (sometimes with pax, more often empty) from one airport to another, which is not a normal passenger route. I've flown perhaps a dozen or so myself.
If this route is very short (or if the a/c has a technical issue such as a failure of the pressurisation system), then this flight will take place outside of the 'normal' airways system, and very possibly outside of what is termed controlled airspace. I would bet my meagre salary and rapidly reducing pension that this is exactly what happened on the occassion in question.
This does not make it a VFR flight. The a/c still receives a radar service from a suitable ATC unit, and still follows an instrument flight plan using instrument navigation aids. The only charts contained on the a/c are for IFR flying.
Whilst we may very well be able to see the world outside passing by, and know exactly where we are, there is no point at which we fly purely by visual references until we are making the approach to the destination airfield, at which point it is occassionally an enjoyable and refreshing change to request a visual approach from the airfield ATC unit.
As for the other stuff, well play nice everyone. This isn't Zimbabwe and everybody is entitled to an opinion. The passenger paid their money and is perfectly entitled to give their feedback. You're all supposedly adults, so like it or lump it.
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Thank you to MC and Sxty, I have since found out it was an FMS problem and the pilot did take CL to SOU-MAN-SOu with the problem.
As commented above it would seem very unlikely that it was VFR flight.
As commented above it would seem very unlikely that it was VFR flight.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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goEDI
No the EDI EMB195 is arriving from EXT for the winter.
Regarding VFR, we are not permitted to fly flybe a/c VFR, it has to be IFR, and even if we conduct a visual approach we are not allowed to cancel the IFR flight plan.
It's all in the Ops Manual
No the EDI EMB195 is arriving from EXT for the winter.
Regarding VFR, we are not permitted to fly flybe a/c VFR, it has to be IFR, and even if we conduct a visual approach we are not allowed to cancel the IFR flight plan.
It's all in the Ops Manual
Join Date: May 2006
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Anne Insider what is disgusting is :
your loved one dying on the way to from/work/home/school
child abusers
people not being able to get their life savings/pensions etc due to fraud etc
dirty hospitals causing you to have flesh eating diseases
people who rob old ladies
etc etc etc
its about time people got some perspective in their lives- a seat on an aeroplane is just that -somewhere to sit- if your asked to move do so graciously if your told you cant move then accept it graciously and thank you lucky stars that your life is blessed in so many other ways
your loved one dying on the way to from/work/home/school
child abusers
people not being able to get their life savings/pensions etc due to fraud etc
dirty hospitals causing you to have flesh eating diseases
people who rob old ladies
etc etc etc
its about time people got some perspective in their lives- a seat on an aeroplane is just that -somewhere to sit- if your asked to move do so graciously if your told you cant move then accept it graciously and thank you lucky stars that your life is blessed in so many other ways
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Anne Insider what is disgusting is :
your loved one dying on the way to from/work/home/school
child abusers
people not being able to get their life savings/pensions etc due to fraud etc
dirty hospitals causing you to have flesh eating diseases
people who rob old ladies
etc etc etc
its about time people got some perspective in their lives- a seat on an aeroplane is just that -somewhere to sit- if your asked to move do so graciously if your told you cant move then accept it graciously and thank you lucky stars that your life is blessed in so many other ways
your loved one dying on the way to from/work/home/school
child abusers
people not being able to get their life savings/pensions etc due to fraud etc
dirty hospitals causing you to have flesh eating diseases
people who rob old ladies
etc etc etc
its about time people got some perspective in their lives- a seat on an aeroplane is just that -somewhere to sit- if your asked to move do so graciously if your told you cant move then accept it graciously and thank you lucky stars that your life is blessed in so many other ways
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Maybe dear Anne you might be confusing Visiting Friends & relatives (VFR) with visual flying. Maybe your company insist you fly BE in the hope of delays to keep you out of the office a little longer. Are you looking at an empty bath - no water, and no kids!
Join Date: Oct 2004
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to put the record straight with the so called vfr flight from man to sou!
I was positioning on this flight! I popped into the flight deck to say hello to the crew, I was informed there was a proplem with the FMS. Therefore the aircraft flew IFR without the FMS and the crew navigated with an IFR chart and VOR and DME. And radar vectors from ATC.
A total non event.
I was positioning on this flight! I popped into the flight deck to say hello to the crew, I was informed there was a proplem with the FMS. Therefore the aircraft flew IFR without the FMS and the crew navigated with an IFR chart and VOR and DME. And radar vectors from ATC.
A total non event.