Alitalia (Merged)
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately, all our competitors did not reduce their subsidies and we lost out.
Support for state enterprises has to be the maddest concept ever as a result.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: South Warwickshire
Posts: 312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually re-heat that is totally false.
In the last ten years, we have lost around 2 Million manufacturing jobs to be replaced by £6 an hour service industry jobs.
The only people who have seen wealth creation are the financiers pushing other peoples money around and not paying UK taxes.
The economy is based upon credit where people have lived on the increase in value of their houses, whilst many people cannot get onto the property ladder now.
In the last ten years, we have lost around 2 Million manufacturing jobs to be replaced by £6 an hour service industry jobs.
The only people who have seen wealth creation are the financiers pushing other peoples money around and not paying UK taxes.
The economy is based upon credit where people have lived on the increase in value of their houses, whilst many people cannot get onto the property ladder now.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With greatest respect to your opinion, that is the Daily Mail version of events - the economic reality of the UK is far removed from that: consider the difference between £6 per hour in a mining business that making no overall profit, or £6 per hour in a call centre that is profitable.
The UK is far wealthier as a result of those changes, as government are inefficient allocators of capital - what this means is that the opinions of many people in a market are far better at making decisions in aggregate the the opinion of a small, closed group of people in government running a state enterprise. As we all know, the more opinions the better, and this is ONLY achieved in a market.
Alitalia, permitted to operate as such, could very well be sustained into the future - similar to BA, Lufthansa, Iberia and others. Inefficiently supported by the state will only result in taxpayers' cash being allocated to unprofitable enterprises to the detriment of the whole economy.
Needless to say, if you don't want to believe the above, you won't, but then again my opinion as an economist is supported by the vast majority of other economists and financial professionals.
The UK is far wealthier as a result of those changes, as government are inefficient allocators of capital - what this means is that the opinions of many people in a market are far better at making decisions in aggregate the the opinion of a small, closed group of people in government running a state enterprise. As we all know, the more opinions the better, and this is ONLY achieved in a market.
Alitalia, permitted to operate as such, could very well be sustained into the future - similar to BA, Lufthansa, Iberia and others. Inefficiently supported by the state will only result in taxpayers' cash being allocated to unprofitable enterprises to the detriment of the whole economy.
Needless to say, if you don't want to believe the above, you won't, but then again my opinion as an economist is supported by the vast majority of other economists and financial professionals.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: South Warwickshire
Posts: 312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am sorry re-heat but we are not talking about £6 an hour in mining vs £6 in an Indian call centre.
We are talking about British peoples jobs being exported, from £10 an hour manufacturing in the UK or Western Europe being replaced by jobs in China at £2 an hour, with none of the rules and regulations imposed on industries as the EU does.
These manufacturing bases in China are 50% owned by the Chinese government and subsidised by that same government.
Indian call centres, £6 an hour? no way, more like £3 an hour.
The UK is not far wealtier, more and more individuals are crippled with debt and IVA's and bankruptcies are rising at a penominal rate.
Service industries are now beginning to feel the effect, as people have less disposable income. Only a section, who have made money from selling the UKs silver and do not pay tax in the UK are wealthier.
Alitalia is juts another european company which is being destroyed by EU regulations, whilst outside the EU governments continue to subsidise their industries to keep their residents in jobs.
Just wait until the Open Skies agreement comes into full flow, watch the European airlines go, and the jobs follow.
OIpen skies will not make more people fly, just the same amount pushing for cheaper fares.
We are talking about British peoples jobs being exported, from £10 an hour manufacturing in the UK or Western Europe being replaced by jobs in China at £2 an hour, with none of the rules and regulations imposed on industries as the EU does.
These manufacturing bases in China are 50% owned by the Chinese government and subsidised by that same government.
Indian call centres, £6 an hour? no way, more like £3 an hour.
The UK is not far wealtier, more and more individuals are crippled with debt and IVA's and bankruptcies are rising at a penominal rate.
Service industries are now beginning to feel the effect, as people have less disposable income. Only a section, who have made money from selling the UKs silver and do not pay tax in the UK are wealthier.
Alitalia is juts another european company which is being destroyed by EU regulations, whilst outside the EU governments continue to subsidise their industries to keep their residents in jobs.
Just wait until the Open Skies agreement comes into full flow, watch the European airlines go, and the jobs follow.
OIpen skies will not make more people fly, just the same amount pushing for cheaper fares.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, you were talking about manufacturing jobs that have been lost from the UK in your first post - if unemployment declines in the UK (which it has), these jobs have clearly been replaced, and that is with new jobs in service industries instead.
So long as net employment is unaffected - in fact globalisation has benefitted us - it matters not where manufacturing jobs are now performed, as the service industries that now dominate the UK better fit the skills of the population, and result in sustainable, profitable industries.
I'm afraid that the rest of your post is alarmist claptrap.
Search the internet for the "Guns and Butter" economic theory of globalisation - it should explain to anyone why such specialisation and globalisation benefits us all, and is based upon some very simply calculations.
So long as net employment is unaffected - in fact globalisation has benefitted us - it matters not where manufacturing jobs are now performed, as the service industries that now dominate the UK better fit the skills of the population, and result in sustainable, profitable industries.
I'm afraid that the rest of your post is alarmist claptrap.
Search the internet for the "Guns and Butter" economic theory of globalisation - it should explain to anyone why such specialisation and globalisation benefits us all, and is based upon some very simply calculations.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: South Warwickshire
Posts: 312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The jobs have been replaced with jobs paying a lot less than the originals, plus unemployment is still rising, even if you accept the Governments massaged figures.
But thats ok eh? people with less disposable income are not going to have any effect on the economy is it? especially one now based upon the service industry, the facts are that bankruptcies and IVA's are on the increase as the burden of debt engulfs these people.
You obviously have no involvement with the Chinese or the way they are doing buisness, else you would understand how their system works and you have yet to feel the full force of the Open skies agreement, something that is not in the best interests of the airline workers, but you will see if its "alrmist claptrap" or not, but by then it will be too late for the industry as it currently stands.
Globalisation benefits a small few making larger profits then moving on to the next country to destroy their national economy with no regard to what they leave behind. Globalistaion is NOT Capitalism, but theft in its purest form.
When China "Globalises", it will not be for the benefit of us in Western Europe, nor for the ordinary Chinaman, as their system is still based upon a warped version of Communism and corruption.
Already we have seen cutting of corners to produce their cheaper products, from toothpaste, tyres that shred and lead in toys. Its a Brave New world you are championing!
Why do you think that so many people now go out their way to buy Fair Trade products? They have seen through the economy destroying nonsense you are spouting.
But thats ok eh? people with less disposable income are not going to have any effect on the economy is it? especially one now based upon the service industry, the facts are that bankruptcies and IVA's are on the increase as the burden of debt engulfs these people.
You obviously have no involvement with the Chinese or the way they are doing buisness, else you would understand how their system works and you have yet to feel the full force of the Open skies agreement, something that is not in the best interests of the airline workers, but you will see if its "alrmist claptrap" or not, but by then it will be too late for the industry as it currently stands.
Globalisation benefits a small few making larger profits then moving on to the next country to destroy their national economy with no regard to what they leave behind. Globalistaion is NOT Capitalism, but theft in its purest form.
When China "Globalises", it will not be for the benefit of us in Western Europe, nor for the ordinary Chinaman, as their system is still based upon a warped version of Communism and corruption.
Already we have seen cutting of corners to produce their cheaper products, from toothpaste, tyres that shred and lead in toys. Its a Brave New world you are championing!
Why do you think that so many people now go out their way to buy Fair Trade products? They have seen through the economy destroying nonsense you are spouting.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Middlesesx
Posts: 2,075
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think this is getting a little heated and only opinions from whatever side of the political spectrum you support. I am in Italy this week at Verona airport and the locals here seem in no doubt that there is no way that Alitalia will be permitted to fold up. There is already industrial action by the ground staff at Rome and views here are that if they were allowed to fail it coulld bring a change of government and it just will not happen.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, as for shoddy toothpaste and drugs, the Chinese just executed the head of their FDA for bribery - that shows how seriously they want to ensure quality in their industries at the moment.
Not sure I can convince warkman, so let's just leave that argument, so the thread remains on topic for now.
Not sure I can convince warkman, so let's just leave that argument, so the thread remains on topic for now.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good morning all:
Just to change the subject for 1 item. Do they use handicapped Stickers & have special places for people with handicappes to park their cars (mine will be rented) in Italy? I have a portable sticker which i can bring to put on the rear view mirror.
I just heard from someone that there are huge luggage delays at the Rome airport but the airport is putting on extra people to help clear it up. Some people said it took 3 hours to get their luggage & many pieces never showed up. Any news would be helpful. Thanks.
Just to change the subject for 1 item. Do they use handicapped Stickers & have special places for people with handicappes to park their cars (mine will be rented) in Italy? I have a portable sticker which i can bring to put on the rear view mirror.
I just heard from someone that there are huge luggage delays at the Rome airport but the airport is putting on extra people to help clear it up. Some people said it took 3 hours to get their luggage & many pieces never showed up. Any news would be helpful. Thanks.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: europe
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
taxes in Italy
Hi penTito, They 've got already Pavarotti ,and today fresh news is that, Valentino Rossi has to pay in Italy about 60 milion euro in taxes from past years, and I think they are working on ryanair, and easyjet ,as they are doing in france hopefully, as at least in europe we have to play the same card game.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 970
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do the enormous earnings of Luciano Pavarotti and Valentino Rossi come from the tickets / royalties / sponsorships payed by Italians only? I thought they were the stars popular all over the world. And you want that the taxes incurred on earnings from the entire world were used to prop-up just Alitalia, but not Ryanair, to mention just those two?
Paxing All Over The World
Revisiting this thread after nearly five days, I did not realise what a can of worms I had opened when I mentioned UK job subsidies. 
At the risk of trying the patience of the Mods even more [doffs cap] ... all countries are going to subsidise some jobs at some times. These will drift in and out of fashion. For example (here I go again
) farming subsidies are still very popular with some but they are losing favour. Airlines are also losing favour (in some countries) as they loose the glitter they took on from their respective merchant navies. The glitter is that of representing the country and that ghastly phrase, 'flying the flag'. The flag used to fly on the boat, then on the tail of the a/c but the greater movement of people means that the airline is not the exclusive and glittery thing it once was. Thus, subsidies are removed.
The problem is that subsidies tend to be removed in, almost, one go. This leaves people high and dry for work, often at a difficult age. If subsidies for coal in the UK had been reduced steadily and openly across ten years, say, then we might have avoided the social catastrophe. But we know that politicians cannot think that far ahead. They used to think five years ahead and now it's only one year. Likewise, commerce cannot wait to get profits in Year 10, it wants them NOW.
Slow and steady change is best for humans but humans usually resist change so long that, when it eventually happens, it is usually too fast. Just like (another example) tectonic plates that build up against each other for decades and then slide past in one great event.
The tectonic plates of Sabena and SwissAir have moved but Alitalia's are still building up pressure.
At the risk of trying the patience of the Mods even more [doffs cap] ... all countries are going to subsidise some jobs at some times. These will drift in and out of fashion. For example (here I go again
) farming subsidies are still very popular with some but they are losing favour. Airlines are also losing favour (in some countries) as they loose the glitter they took on from their respective merchant navies. The glitter is that of representing the country and that ghastly phrase, 'flying the flag'. The flag used to fly on the boat, then on the tail of the a/c but the greater movement of people means that the airline is not the exclusive and glittery thing it once was. Thus, subsidies are removed.The problem is that subsidies tend to be removed in, almost, one go. This leaves people high and dry for work, often at a difficult age. If subsidies for coal in the UK had been reduced steadily and openly across ten years, say, then we might have avoided the social catastrophe. But we know that politicians cannot think that far ahead. They used to think five years ahead and now it's only one year. Likewise, commerce cannot wait to get profits in Year 10, it wants them NOW.
Slow and steady change is best for humans but humans usually resist change so long that, when it eventually happens, it is usually too fast. Just like (another example) tectonic plates that build up against each other for decades and then slide past in one great event.
The tectonic plates of Sabena and SwissAir have moved but Alitalia's are still building up pressure.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: next to U
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
eu01, we are talking personal income tax, so one is liable where one is resident for tax purposes, no? but italian goverment freely admits that more than a quarter of the gdp is :in nero", ie not paying into the tax system (the legal one), not to mention Tanzis (parmalat) and alike 
.
.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: europe
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
eu01 -I like to prop-up best Alitalia, than ryanair, not to mention that the tax level in ireland is half than Italy,this was allowed since ireland was a poor country, is still ireland a poor country? again eu01: protectionism in Italy ? Alitalia is the only airline in europe that was forced below 50% share in domestic market .I don't thing eu01 knows well Italy just reading or listening rubish news .
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: South Warwickshire
Posts: 312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Or how about the biggest handouts going at the moment?
Shares massively drop in price the national banks come in with Millions of Dollars, Sterling and Euros to bail them out and stop them from falling!
So much for market forces eh?
Orb is this form of subsidy acceptable?????
Shares massively drop in price the national banks come in with Millions of Dollars, Sterling and Euros to bail them out and stop them from falling!
So much for market forces eh?
Orb is this form of subsidy acceptable?????
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 970
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, not better than other European countries. I just happen to sympathize with the genuine free market, where the truly efficient firms win without propping them out. If Alitalia were able to perform great metamorphosis and just stopped losing money after many years of inertia, my sympathy goes to them as well. It's as simple as that.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: europe
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
eu01 ,tell me one airline in europe who does'nt get pubblic money, in a way or in another. please don't say low cost because they have money as much as traditional carrier.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shares massively drop in price the national banks come in with Millions of Dollars, Sterling and Euros to bail them out and stop them from falling!
So much for market forces eh?
So much for market forces eh?
IKB should have been allowed to collapse, and I am disgusted that there is no talk at all of preventing the handouts from KfW and the other banks to keep their peer in business.
State-owned with cross-ownerships - sounds like Japan in the 90s before their crash. Let's hope Italy and Germany change their ways before they end up there as well.