Alitalia (Merged)
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Maybe union negotiators can afford to let negotiations fail,as profitable AZ routes will be covered by another aviation transportation company,with employees who are also dues paying members of the unions working,so regardless they lose nothing.
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The only real losers are the AZ personnel who actually are working hard to keep the airline afloat.
The rabble rousers will have their fifteen minutes of fame and probably end up being rewarded with a job representing one of the many Italian unions.
This is a shame.
Of course all unprofitable AZ routes with todays high energy costs are the other real losers.
Job losses in those areas always tend to have real disastrous knock on effects.
Are they (unions) aware how many support services organizations will go bankrupt and how many Italians will lose jobs as a result of their inability to make a deal?
Do they realise jus t how badly this may affect the Italian economy?
Do they understand how vulnerable their industry will become to foreign incursion and exploitation?
That is supposed to be their greatest fear,but they are foolishly making it possible and easier/cheaper to achieve.
Sad.
The rabble rousers will have their fifteen minutes of fame and probably end up being rewarded with a job representing one of the many Italian unions.
This is a shame.
Of course all unprofitable AZ routes with todays high energy costs are the other real losers.
Job losses in those areas always tend to have real disastrous knock on effects.
Are they (unions) aware how many support services organizations will go bankrupt and how many Italians will lose jobs as a result of their inability to make a deal?
Do they realise jus t how badly this may affect the Italian economy?
Do they understand how vulnerable their industry will become to foreign incursion and exploitation?
That is supposed to be their greatest fear,but they are foolishly making it possible and easier/cheaper to achieve.
Sad.
Join Date: May 2007
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AVSEC: your insinuation could be true only in the case of the nationwide union termed CGIL, that by now has come to softer stance.
However, the stumbling block have been pilot's unions ANPAC and UP that are exclusively made of Alitalia pilots. That they took the position they had for mere personal interest, would be hard to theorize.
Once again, collect facts before talking about stuff you don't know. It would be like me debating Scottish law in relation to England, or if you guys should get a national ID card or not.
However, the stumbling block have been pilot's unions ANPAC and UP that are exclusively made of Alitalia pilots. That they took the position they had for mere personal interest, would be hard to theorize.
Once again, collect facts before talking about stuff you don't know. It would be like me debating Scottish law in relation to England, or if you guys should get a national ID card or not.
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It is hard for me as a realistic human being living in the world I live in,to believe that the unions that bocked an agreement being reached did so for any other reason than selfish reasons.
If your assertion that the two major unions that are involved in blocking an agreement being reached represent mainly pilots who have greater chances of reemployment at higer wages than ground staff or crew is correct,then I still smell selfish intent.
Earlier good advise was given for any sort of agreement to be reached,so unhappy personnel could get good settlements while being retrenched,and those that remain, have a job while they search for elsewhere with better conditions to move to.
So much harm and disrespect has been suffered by the Alitalia Airlines brand,and now the nails are sealing the coffin shut for a disgraceful burial without ceremony.
How sad.
If your assertion that the two major unions that are involved in blocking an agreement being reached represent mainly pilots who have greater chances of reemployment at higer wages than ground staff or crew is correct,then I still smell selfish intent.
Earlier good advise was given for any sort of agreement to be reached,so unhappy personnel could get good settlements while being retrenched,and those that remain, have a job while they search for elsewhere with better conditions to move to.
So much harm and disrespect has been suffered by the Alitalia Airlines brand,and now the nails are sealing the coffin shut for a disgraceful burial without ceremony.
How sad.
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According to Der Spiegel (German magazine, usually reliable), Berlusconi has said in an interview that the game's up for AZ. Could of course be a tactical ploy to get the unions back to the table.....
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Italia = AZ = Unions = Mafioso
US = Airlines/Ground Handlers/Fuel Truck Drivers = Unions = Teamsters = Mafioso
Admit or give proof of no relationship. It was proved in both in Italian & US Courts of Justice, only in Italy they murder the Judges & Investigators.
I rest my case.
Unions should work for the benefit of ALL EMPLOYEES and PROTECT THEIR FUTURE.
The AZ Unions have not done this, can you not see this?, or do you want more Billions of Euros from the rest of the tax payers in Italy & Europe. Grow up!
US = Airlines/Ground Handlers/Fuel Truck Drivers = Unions = Teamsters = Mafioso
Admit or give proof of no relationship. It was proved in both in Italian & US Courts of Justice, only in Italy they murder the Judges & Investigators.
I rest my case.
Unions should work for the benefit of ALL EMPLOYEES and PROTECT THEIR FUTURE.
The AZ Unions have not done this, can you not see this?, or do you want more Billions of Euros from the rest of the tax payers in Italy & Europe. Grow up!
A new world order is dawning - one where your deregulated cowboy capitalism is going to be busted and outlawed. You and your ilk have made a mess of the world economy for decades to come. Now sod off and take your self righteous crap somewhere else. We've wised up.
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Methinks this has got somewhat out of hand. Speaking as a union person, they exist to get our members the best deal we can get. All who are at the negotiation table bear operating circumstances in mind. AZ has been propped up by govt for years and there is no way you will get into the union's psyche that it is over. It's called either brinkmanship or suicide.
Pity, cause I liked AZ.
Pity, cause I liked AZ.
In today's world the unions are a part of the capitalist system but to blame the unions as a single reason for the demise of an airline is just as out of date as blaming pilot error for all accidents. The unfortunate part of all this is the daily roller coaster that the employee's emotions will be on as they cling on to every bit of news to see if the company survives. It is probably better to just wind it up and allow the staff to think about the
"Where to from here?" issue now, rather than live with the uncertainty.
"Where to from here?" issue now, rather than live with the uncertainty.
but to blame the unions as a single reason for the demise of an airline is just as out of date as blaming pilot error for all accidents.
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A union and a company should have a symbiotic relationship. This relationship should be based on mutual benefit. The union should maximize the benefits for its members, without damaging the company.
The union’s relationship at Alitalia is based on parasitism. The added layer of harm this parasite has inflicted over time has damaged the company beyond repair. Both parties deserve their ultimate fate.
At Alitalia the unions are but one of the insurmountable problems, but these unions can look in the mirror and see a major part of the problem looking back at them.
The individual employees deserve a degree of sympathy, I wouldn’t like this level of upheaval in my life. But personally I hope this saga comes to its natural conclusion in short order.
The union’s relationship at Alitalia is based on parasitism. The added layer of harm this parasite has inflicted over time has damaged the company beyond repair. Both parties deserve their ultimate fate.
At Alitalia the unions are but one of the insurmountable problems, but these unions can look in the mirror and see a major part of the problem looking back at them.
The individual employees deserve a degree of sympathy, I wouldn’t like this level of upheaval in my life. But personally I hope this saga comes to its natural conclusion in short order.
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LAZarus comes to mind.
Over time, I think, the EU regulations will kill off innefficient, subsidy-sucking entities like AZ and OA, despite the desperate attempts of some Politicians to keep them alive for reasons of National Pride; an attitude which encourages Unions to be uncompromising in their attitudes to productivity deals, and thus prolong the agony.
Whether AZ goes this time, I don't know.
I hope it goes for the benefit of the Italian taxpayer, and ultimately, Italian commercial enterprise.
.
Over time, I think, the EU regulations will kill off innefficient, subsidy-sucking entities like AZ and OA, despite the desperate attempts of some Politicians to keep them alive for reasons of National Pride; an attitude which encourages Unions to be uncompromising in their attitudes to productivity deals, and thus prolong the agony.
Whether AZ goes this time, I don't know.
I hope it goes for the benefit of the Italian taxpayer, and ultimately, Italian commercial enterprise.
.
Join Date: May 2007
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Latest: ENAV will revoke license in 3-4 days unless new finances and a plan are confirmed.
.
Some crew are changing front from the 'independent' unions to the others, and viceversa. Lot of accusations going and possibly these are last hours for personal vendettas. Personally, I think the latest messages to member from pilot's leader Berti are nothing less than desperate attempts to an unity that is in fact, lost by now.
Berlusconi said "today it's not an important day". Perhaps he has better plans on how to spend it rather than with this appalling matter.
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Some crew are changing front from the 'independent' unions to the others, and viceversa. Lot of accusations going and possibly these are last hours for personal vendettas. Personally, I think the latest messages to member from pilot's leader Berti are nothing less than desperate attempts to an unity that is in fact, lost by now.
Berlusconi said "today it's not an important day". Perhaps he has better plans on how to spend it rather than with this appalling matter.
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Its the socialism, stupid
I think the sentiments of these threads are sound: it's not about Italy. Its about the Italian work ethos and the echoes of socialism that still pervade the working and middle class mindset in Italy.
Some posters here have said that Alitalia is iconic, well, maybe, but I thought it would be interesting - in a tongue in cheek way - to look at two Italian icons - Lambretta and Piaggio - one of which survives to this day in its original form, due only to management of change, and one which was completely crippled by the unions (the brits share a measure of the blame).
Both started with the same deck of cards: dynamic engineering abilities, charismatic founders, factories bombed to shreds in WW II. Two completely different outcomes.
It will take you five minutes to read.
Cambridge Lambretta Workshops - Lambretta History
Piaggio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pinkman
Some posters here have said that Alitalia is iconic, well, maybe, but I thought it would be interesting - in a tongue in cheek way - to look at two Italian icons - Lambretta and Piaggio - one of which survives to this day in its original form, due only to management of change, and one which was completely crippled by the unions (the brits share a measure of the blame).
Both started with the same deck of cards: dynamic engineering abilities, charismatic founders, factories bombed to shreds in WW II. Two completely different outcomes.
It will take you five minutes to read.
Cambridge Lambretta Workshops - Lambretta History
Piaggio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pinkman
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captain Kremlin you amaze me.
This is not about capitalism v socialism,but about survival within a shrinking industry where big operators face real challenges beyond their control like rising energy costs.
Do you know how many of our peers will lose their homes,and way of life if this happens?
Who cares about the academic debate?
How many support services will fold?
How many people will find their way back into this industry we all love and are addicted to?
Think Kremlin,be realistic,care about your peers.
This is not about capitalism v socialism,but about survival within a shrinking industry where big operators face real challenges beyond their control like rising energy costs.
Do you know how many of our peers will lose their homes,and way of life if this happens?
Who cares about the academic debate?
How many support services will fold?
How many people will find their way back into this industry we all love and are addicted to?
Think Kremlin,be realistic,care about your peers.
Join Date: May 2007
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The lone rant came from CaptKremin, altough to insert an 'l' to make Kremlin seems almost natural.
His first paragraph is absolutely right and factual, in fact all the Alitalia CEOs, a long series of fat inepts, were overpaid at the tune of millions.
The second could not be more wrong. Capitalism is far from be defeated, in fact is a self-perpetuating system that will win as long people has enough football, booze and cocaine.
His first paragraph is absolutely right and factual, in fact all the Alitalia CEOs, a long series of fat inepts, were overpaid at the tune of millions.
The second could not be more wrong. Capitalism is far from be defeated, in fact is a self-perpetuating system that will win as long people has enough football, booze and cocaine.
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Save your lectures for the idiot who called the unions a 'mafioso'.
Still in denial? How can you have Capitalism, with no capital?
The jokes on you now, you idiot.
You Right Wing Nutters have driven this industry and the world economy to the brink with your failed neo-liberal dogma.
You think Alitalia is unique? A suitable victim? Just stand back and watch whats about to happen in the next six months....and its ALL YOUR FAULT.
Capitalism is far from be defeated
The jokes on you now, you idiot.
You Right Wing Nutters have driven this industry and the world economy to the brink with your failed neo-liberal dogma.
You think Alitalia is unique? A suitable victim? Just stand back and watch whats about to happen in the next six months....and its ALL YOUR FAULT.
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Give Me A Break!!
Do you know how many of our peers will lose their homes,and way of life if this happens?
Who cares about the academic debate?
Who cares about the academic debate?
Fact is my friend that there is a big competetive world out there outside Italy and only efficient, profitable businesses will survive to provide jobs and benefits, in line with productivity, to employees. Alitalia is clearly not a case in point. Get real.