Ryanair - 6
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In France it has pretty much left domestic travel alone because of the AF supporting policies
Ryanair say "It's not fair AF get low charges on domestic routes". But any airline doing a domestic route in France gets low charges, so it is completely fair.
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Is this the business model that added 18% more passengers in the last quarter ?
Italy has 60 Million domestic passenger journeys per year and Ryanair is only really starting to expand there over last 12 months.
What AF supporting policies?
Ryanair say "It's not fair AF get low charges on domestic routes". But any airline doing a domestic route in France gets low charges, so it is completely fair.
Ryanair say "It's not fair AF get low charges on domestic routes". But any airline doing a domestic route in France gets low charges, so it is completely fair.
Ryanair hasn't tried as its seen what Easyjet has tried to do and in their own indomitable way seen rules by French authorities.
Bums on seats is one thing, but yield is what matters. If those 18% are only paying 2p per sector you may as well fly fresh air. Is there any evidence that their yields/revenue have increased at a similar rate? And in the deepest recession in 2 decades, despite announcing fantastic increases in load factors the share price remains static. Something's not adding up.
True, FR may have only cursory penetration into the Italian market but EasyJet, AirOne, Wizzair, Blu-Express, Lufti-Italia, Air Berlin, Meridiana etc etc etc all have an established presence and the Italian public are familiar with the lo-co product.
EU markets: Flag carrier dominance declining as LCCs continue to grab market share | anna.aero
Plus the Italian Government have allowed Alitalia to run at a loss for years and show no signs of reversing this behaviour. Italy along with the other major European markets such as Spain, France and Germany is saturated. Central European is heavily penetrated by Wizzair, FR and EasyJet
Lots of people are calling themselves low cost but few are actually able to deliver on it and remain in business rather than as Sky Europe showed going from crises to crises.
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Just decided to check out if Ryanair really are giving away Free flights!
And just a observation....
Dublin to Cork - Free
Dublin to Kerry - €35
is it because Dublin to Kerry is a pso route and the goverment pay ryanair to operate it, so do they just deliberatly keep fares high?
And just a observation....
Dublin to Cork - Free
Dublin to Kerry - €35
is it because Dublin to Kerry is a pso route and the goverment pay ryanair to operate it, so do they just deliberatly keep fares high?
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What makes you think they are leaving BHX cov man???? There has been nothing stating that coming from Ryanair or BHX management!
On a more positive note, expect a batch of new routes around Europe over the next 4 weeks for starting in March/April. Just something i have heard
On a more positive note, expect a batch of new routes around Europe over the next 4 weeks for starting in March/April. Just something i have heard
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Racedo,
I don't mean to be picky and I certainly would not want this to descend into a pointless pseudo-fact slinging match. But there are some contradictions in what you say;
In message 5975 you said;
But in message 5979 you say:
Looks like they have reached their critical mass in Italy already then? It seems to me, reading the article you referenced that FR has pretty strong penetration into all the key marketplaces across Europe, which was my original point.
And in the same message you said:
Don't you think the collapse in air travel and the demise of so many airlines was caused by a contraction in the actual and projected marketplace? Investors realised they'd never see their money again and pulled the plug causing the airlines to collapse. For too long, alot of airlines have been surviving on cheap and rollable debt and unrealistic predictions of air traffic growth.
Ryanair is very lucky, they have an enviable position of sitting on a large pile of cash (largely generated from the re-sale of Boeing 737s - I refer to their filed accounts) and even in the current climate are still generating positive cashflow. But the old days are over, the next phase of FR's history will not be like the last 10 years and they will have to adapt.
I don't mean to be picky and I certainly would not want this to descend into a pointless pseudo-fact slinging match. But there are some contradictions in what you say;
In message 5975 you said;
Italy has 60 Million domestic passenger journeys per year and Ryanair is only really starting to expand there over last 12 months.
Do you mean the 15% of the Italian market, twice the size of Easyjet is cursory ?
And in the same message you said:
Anybody who thinks the European market is saturated hasn't been following the demise of airlines with unsustainable costs over the last 18 months.
Ryanair is very lucky, they have an enviable position of sitting on a large pile of cash (largely generated from the re-sale of Boeing 737s - I refer to their filed accounts) and even in the current climate are still generating positive cashflow. But the old days are over, the next phase of FR's history will not be like the last 10 years and they will have to adapt.
Last edited by demomonkey; 15th Oct 2009 at 18:27.
Don't you think the collapse in air travel and the demise of so many airlines was caused by a contraction in the actual and projected marketplace? Investors realised they'd never see their money again and pulled the plug causing the airlines to collapse. For too long, alot of airlines have been surviving on cheap and rollable debt and unrealistic predictions of air traffic growth.
1.) Easy debt with no idea of how to generate sufficient cash to repay it
2.) Unrealistic assumptions regarding setting up i.e. Sky Europe assumming it could beat FR on service and price
3.) Management incapable of realising that any fool can make money in a boom its the recession that forces good management to the top
4.) Management unable to make money in a boom
Ryanair is very lucky, they have an enviable position of sitting on a large pile of cash (largely generated from the re-sale of Boeing 737s - I refer to their filed accounts) and even in the current climate are still generating positive cashflow. But the old days are over, the next phase of FR's history will not be like the last 10 years and they will have to adapt.
Nobody expects the next 5 years to be like the last but the same assumptions regarding the downturn in Airlines does affect the legacy carriers be it Alitalia / Iberia etc, they won't be supported for ever by Governments when their own people are bailing out to cheaper carriers. I don't think FR are struggling for new growth opportunities.
Holding 15% show there is a potential 85% that has not been touched and that doesn't include building up new routes and new markets so even in a flat market you would expect a growth rate from legacy carriers as route network is more extensive.
Some of the future growth will come from existing airlines and some from new route development as lets face it 6 years ago flying to Eastern Europe was limited and even now because of Income levels its still so BUT that doesn't last forever.
Economies are coming out of recession but still another 9-12 months of pain and people will get back to old ways of flying.
Sometimes its outlasting every one else that wins.
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demonmonkey
You seem to be able to predict the future when it comes to
Ryanair.
racedo
I side with you on this debate because MOL and his chums
have shown themselves to be capable business people over
the last 15 yrs.
MM
You seem to be able to predict the future when it comes to
Ryanair.
racedo
I side with you on this debate because MOL and his chums
have shown themselves to be capable business people over
the last 15 yrs.
MM
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I like your posts Racedo (contrary to most of the people apparently ;-) but I am surprised you still think the recession will benefit Ryanair. When MOL, with its characteristic bad taste humour was happy to declare than (while many people were loosing their jobs) "recession is a good thing and Ryanair will benefit from it as it always did", I strongly contest that with few arguments, basically a total change in environment vs e.g 2001 crisis (as flag carriers much more competitive in terms of prices), rubbish investment in EI that will cost them money, bad hedging strategy and many bad routes that will be even worst during the recession.
Today, I still think what I said and still thinks that MOL and its apparently "people with lot of expertise" were wrong to think that as in 2001 they will make a lot of money with the crisis, as confirmed by their financial results with a first loose (because of EI investment... so entirely because of their fault) and a very very lower operating profit/margin. My point of view is that not only contrary to 2001 business people didn't switch from flag carriers to Ryanair (whereas I do believe easyJet with main airports benefit about that) and the latter only maintain its LF with big discounted fares, but I am actually not even sure than the few bankrupt will benefit the airline as in most of the cases, stronger airlines replaced the bankrupted ones (Wizzair for Sky, Transavia and Norwegian for Sterling, Jet2 and BMIB for EZY at EMA). So at the end, Racedo you always keen to defend Ryanair vision, but on this case, I am not sure the crisis has benefited Ryanair, contrary to what they announced, and I am actually sure than the crisis actually demonstrates than MOL apparently main objective to give every tickets for free is obviously not achievable.
One thing I agree with you is that the potential of development is still important in Europe and there are still a lot of underserved markets for LCCs.
About BBC panorama, MOL as always is playing on people lack of information, and he knows very well that Ryanair didn't transport 66m of PAX. If you consider most of flights (>90% probably) are return tickets, many PAX are regular users (let's say around 25%) and the huge number of no shows (let's say around 10 i.e c5% on average on their flights), the number of people really transported by Ryanair is more around 25m than 66m...
About the BBC panorama show, I think it has been very fair actually, with some very good points for Ryanair (interview of the young chap, Malmo airport etc). My problem is more that it missed the real problems:
- most of the employees hate working within the company, as prooved by the huge people turnover
- lies to shareholders such as when they said in their FYR Bremen were working well whereas everybody knew it was a nightmare, or VLC were performing well and close it few months later. Same statement with Belfast city whereas still today the base is a dog
- why did they stop to communicate flown passenger statistics since they offer so much free tickets whereas probably half of the tickets offered for free are probably not flown
- does MOL confident than its Troyes horse at Aer Lingus will permit him to take over the flag carrier?
etc etc
Today, I still think what I said and still thinks that MOL and its apparently "people with lot of expertise" were wrong to think that as in 2001 they will make a lot of money with the crisis, as confirmed by their financial results with a first loose (because of EI investment... so entirely because of their fault) and a very very lower operating profit/margin. My point of view is that not only contrary to 2001 business people didn't switch from flag carriers to Ryanair (whereas I do believe easyJet with main airports benefit about that) and the latter only maintain its LF with big discounted fares, but I am actually not even sure than the few bankrupt will benefit the airline as in most of the cases, stronger airlines replaced the bankrupted ones (Wizzair for Sky, Transavia and Norwegian for Sterling, Jet2 and BMIB for EZY at EMA). So at the end, Racedo you always keen to defend Ryanair vision, but on this case, I am not sure the crisis has benefited Ryanair, contrary to what they announced, and I am actually sure than the crisis actually demonstrates than MOL apparently main objective to give every tickets for free is obviously not achievable.
One thing I agree with you is that the potential of development is still important in Europe and there are still a lot of underserved markets for LCCs.
About BBC panorama, MOL as always is playing on people lack of information, and he knows very well that Ryanair didn't transport 66m of PAX. If you consider most of flights (>90% probably) are return tickets, many PAX are regular users (let's say around 25%) and the huge number of no shows (let's say around 10 i.e c5% on average on their flights), the number of people really transported by Ryanair is more around 25m than 66m...
About the BBC panorama show, I think it has been very fair actually, with some very good points for Ryanair (interview of the young chap, Malmo airport etc). My problem is more that it missed the real problems:
- most of the employees hate working within the company, as prooved by the huge people turnover
- lies to shareholders such as when they said in their FYR Bremen were working well whereas everybody knew it was a nightmare, or VLC were performing well and close it few months later. Same statement with Belfast city whereas still today the base is a dog
- why did they stop to communicate flown passenger statistics since they offer so much free tickets whereas probably half of the tickets offered for free are probably not flown
- does MOL confident than its Troyes horse at Aer Lingus will permit him to take over the flag carrier?
etc etc
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If one knew nothing about our industry, then i think you would go away from the Panorma programe with the view that Ryanair are safe, very cheap, always on time and pay the staff (pilots) well and use brand new aircraft, most of which is of course true. What a programe can't show is hassel, wit schedules getting chopped and changed and having to monitor your e-mail every 5 minutes, or turning up at the airport hours before, because a minute late and you are denied boarding, even if the inbound is late, not to protect the time keeping, but to make you buy another ticket which will be 17500% more expensive that the pound ticket you bought on line or £40 for the boarding card that you left in the shop or security, that intended hassel
Ryanair business model is very price sensitive, and whilst the kid from Leeds with his visa electron card in his pocket (i doubt there'l be a condom in there!) might get off flying to DUB every week for £1.00 its hardly the most sustainable way of doing bussiness (he will get bored or have to start paying for his flying training!!)
What Ryanair have done is re-written the rule book (rule one there are no rules) and all credit to anyone who does that.
They would move every aircraft out of the UK before agree to BALPA and who can blame them? they have FTL that could not be operated by a UK airline,but can you imagin that BBC nerd trying to get that accross on the Telly?
There next big test will come when the airport deals are up, airports are starting to wise up that you can not bring Ryanair in and expect everything to stay the same with your present incumbents (if that's what you want) i suspect LBA is in for a shock when they turn up and tell the unwitting pax that the gifts/wine they have purchased airside will cost £30+ unless they can squeeze it in to the hand luggage and the airside retailers start moaning about Ryanair pax buying nothing (why do you think the asked for your flight number or boarding card in shops?) so all in all they do what they say they will do, bit like a bus, but on a bus you don't have to listen to adverts for Ryanair cigs Ryanair scratch cards and another on time arrival announcement when you get to Harrogate der et der ra.............
Ryanair business model is very price sensitive, and whilst the kid from Leeds with his visa electron card in his pocket (i doubt there'l be a condom in there!) might get off flying to DUB every week for £1.00 its hardly the most sustainable way of doing bussiness (he will get bored or have to start paying for his flying training!!)
What Ryanair have done is re-written the rule book (rule one there are no rules) and all credit to anyone who does that.
They would move every aircraft out of the UK before agree to BALPA and who can blame them? they have FTL that could not be operated by a UK airline,but can you imagin that BBC nerd trying to get that accross on the Telly?
There next big test will come when the airport deals are up, airports are starting to wise up that you can not bring Ryanair in and expect everything to stay the same with your present incumbents (if that's what you want) i suspect LBA is in for a shock when they turn up and tell the unwitting pax that the gifts/wine they have purchased airside will cost £30+ unless they can squeeze it in to the hand luggage and the airside retailers start moaning about Ryanair pax buying nothing (why do you think the asked for your flight number or boarding card in shops?) so all in all they do what they say they will do, bit like a bus, but on a bus you don't have to listen to adverts for Ryanair cigs Ryanair scratch cards and another on time arrival announcement when you get to Harrogate der et der ra.............
but I am surprised you still think the recession will benefit Ryanair. When MOL, with its characteristic bad taste humour was happy to declare than (while many people were loosing their jobs) "recession is a good thing and Ryanair will benefit from it as it always did", I strongly contest that with few arguments, basically a total change in environment vs e.g 2001 crisis (as flag carriers much more competitive in terms of prices), rubbish investment in EI that will cost them money, bad hedging strategy and many bad routes that will be even worst during the recession.
1.) exit of competitors
2.) people seeking lower fares
3.) Airports seeking new routes and passenger number as a result of failed operators / route exit becoming willing to approach and entice FR in
2001 was different in that was a crises of confidence brought about by 9/11 and they tackled it with passengers by giving away seats, overcoming peoples perceptions of confidence when a flight to Prague is free and secondly by ruthlessly expoliting manufacturers to get best prices for aircraft. Its business and thats how it operates not necessarily right or nice.
Lots of people lost their jobs already and some will still lose them but ultimately MOL is responsible for FR's performance not how others perform. There have been redundancies because of FR's actions in removing check in desks and route changes but I don't think any boss glorifies in that from any business, doesn't mean you don't feel for the people involved but he is there to make tough decisions and many times they are not nice ones.
Do FR screw up ? Of course but making a mistake is easy, its the recovery from it that is important and yup hedging screw up last year but in not hedging they have enjoyed lower prices than those who hedged at the top last year, not every decision is a bad decision.
Today, I still think what I said and still thinks that MOL and its apparently "people with lot of expertise" were wrong to think that as in 2001 they will make a lot of money with the crisis, as confirmed by their financial results with a first loose (because of EI investment... so entirely because of their fault) and a very very lower operating profit/margin. My point of view is that not only contrary to 2001 business people didn't switch from flag carriers to Ryanair (whereas I do believe easyJet with main airports benefit about that) and the latter only maintain its LF with big discounted fares, but I am actually not even sure than the few bankrupt will benefit the airline as in most of the cases, stronger airlines replaced the bankrupted ones (Wizzair for Sky, Transavia and Norwegian for Sterling, Jet2 and BMIB for EZY at EMA). So at the end, Racedo you always keen to defend Ryanair vision, but on this case, I am not sure the crisis has benefited Ryanair, contrary to what they announced, and I am actually sure than the crisis actually demonstrates than MOL apparently main objective to give every tickets for free is obviously not achievable.
It looks like a good decision now but in the 48 hours after they went with 1st big sale likely they sweated a bit. Which is more a risk, a passenger who will pay £/€10 for a fare or one where you relying on to pay 350 times that in business class, BA losses show which is not working at this moment in time.
One thing I agree with you is that the potential of development is still important in Europe and there are still a lot of underserved markets for LCCs.
About BBC panorama, MOL as always is playing on people lack of information, and he knows very well that Ryanair didn't transport 66m of PAX. If you consider most of flights (>90% probably) are return tickets, many PAX are regular users (let's say around 25%) and the huge number of no shows (let's say around 10 i.e c5% on average on their flights), the number of people really transported by Ryanair is more around 25m than 66m...
About BBC panorama, MOL as always is playing on people lack of information, and he knows very well that Ryanair didn't transport 66m of PAX. If you consider most of flights (>90% probably) are return tickets, many PAX are regular users (let's say around 25%) and the huge number of no shows (let's say around 10 i.e c5% on average on their flights), the number of people really transported by Ryanair is more around 25m than 66m...
The 66M are seats sold as they do not sell return tickets, therefore unlike if you buy a ticket with BA from LHR-CDG if you fail to turn up at LHR for outgoing leg the ticket is void, however with FR / Easy etc turning up for outbound is irrelevant as its sold by sector.
If you went down the actual individuals carried then numbers would be a lot less as with all airlines as BA with 30 million passengers carried are not carrying 30 million unique individuals so it affects everybody in that context. An acquaintance is a SLF with BA and its Amsterdam or Chicago / Singapore / New York / Hong Kong on a rolling basis every week. He did 150 flights with BA (300 plus sectors) last year so it affects everybody equally.
I think there is a long way to go with LC model within Europe and people forget that countries like UK etc will come out of recession and people start flying more again so the opportunities are and will be available for quite a while.
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What a programe can't show is hassel, with schedules getting chopped and changed and having to monitor your e-mail every 5 minutes
Btw. Some improvements in schedule planning (self-connecting pax in view) could encourage many more to use FR services. What's the sense in neglecting them?
Btw. Some improvements in schedule planning (self-connecting pax in view) could encourage many more to use FR services. What's the sense in neglecting them?
Those who risk flying with this nasty little airline only have themselves to blame when it all turns to worms.
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It's not even just because of the baggage transfer, they could even allow connections for passangers with hand-luggage only, it wouldn't work either. But I can't see a Ryanair plane wait for other passengers that are arriving late on another flight. Plus allowing connections wouldn't give Ryanair the same flexibility to just change schedules and flight times everytime it suits their needs. It's just too complicated for their operational system.
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BEagle - are you speaking from experience or just another one jumping on the anti-Ryanair bad wagon? With one exception I've always found the Ryanair experience fine and certainly no worse than many other of the airlines I've flown with. I certainly wouldn't describe the service as "nasty".
What a programe can't show is hassel, wit schedules getting chopped and changed and having to monitor your e-mail every 5 minutes, or turning up at the airport hours before, because a minute late and you are denied boarding, even if the inbound is late, not to protect the time keeping, but to make you buy another ticket which will be 17500% more expensive that the pound ticket you bought on line or £40 for the boarding card that you left in the shop or security, that intended hassel
Its pretty hard to be denied boarding for FR now as you have to check in online.
As for leaving boarding card all over the place !!!!! Based on this you are a security risk and probably shouldn't be let out alone.
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BEagle.
It is neither nasty nor is it little: 202 airframes growing to 312 in the next 2 years hardly qualifies as little.
As to nasty.....you get to travel on a new 738 ( fleet average age 2.3 years) for peanuts. You get there on time, best punctuality in Europe, without having your bag in Miami or Heathrow ( fewer lost bags than ANY airline).
Just what do you want for £10?
The aircraft is greener than your precious VC10 - around 25% of the emissions for close on 60% more passengers.
It is neither nasty nor is it little: 202 airframes growing to 312 in the next 2 years hardly qualifies as little.
As to nasty.....you get to travel on a new 738 ( fleet average age 2.3 years) for peanuts. You get there on time, best punctuality in Europe, without having your bag in Miami or Heathrow ( fewer lost bags than ANY airline).
Just what do you want for £10?
The aircraft is greener than your precious VC10 - around 25% of the emissions for close on 60% more passengers.