Aer Lingus - 4
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Late night Belfast to Heathrow
Correct me if i'm wrong here but about 6 years ago bmi flew BFS-LHR and had a flight out of BFS at 2140 every night which was popular and did well. Then they move to the city airport and much to everybodys dissapointment there is no more late night flight allowed out of BHD. Then Aer Lingus announce BFS-LHR with a flight at 2130 every night frm the end of march, and people say it will be a complete dog and not make money. Where does this come from? Wasn't everybody moaning before Aer Lingus announced that there was no late night Belfast-Heathrow flight, and that there was a desparate need for one?
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Late arrival from LHR
BHDflyer
As far as I understand, what was needed was a late night arrival from LHR rather than to LHR. This would allow businessmen in London travelling home, not to have the panic of having to be at Heathow for 18.30 etc. Loads on late Belfast bound flights would be moneymakers, originating from Belfast, not so much.
As far as I understand, what was needed was a late night arrival from LHR rather than to LHR. This would allow businessmen in London travelling home, not to have the panic of having to be at Heathow for 18.30 etc. Loads on late Belfast bound flights would be moneymakers, originating from Belfast, not so much.
Rebel PPRuNer
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DUB-AGP is 1866km on the great circle mapper - not short haul so much as "short-ish" 
For comparison: BFS-ORK is 386km, SNN-DUB 195km.
For comparison: BFS-ORK is 386km, SNN-DUB 195km.
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....because the Aer Lingus check-in staff wanted €1,000 each just to move down 2 floors. You couldn't make it up
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It was the baggage handlers who did this, not the check-in staff
unions are a necessary part of everyday life that actually don't cause strikes at all but try their best to avoid them
Remind us again of what union they belong to.
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Just remember, you can strike and strike and strike until you strike yourself out of a job. At the end of the day, the law of economics will decide who wins. If Ei is weakened too much, Fr will move in for the kill, under the cover of a rescue. Will you be better off working for them? And how long will the Lhr slots be kept then?
If the wages at Bfs aren't competitive, nobody will apply, so then Ei will have to up them to get staff. Problem solved.
I think this row is more about some peoples egos.
true blue
True Blue
If the wages at Bfs aren't competitive, nobody will apply, so then Ei will have to up them to get staff. Problem solved.
I think this row is more about some peoples egos.
true blue
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TRUE BLUE .....I agree with a lot of your sentiments....if mannion wins this beef with the pilots there will be no difference working for the blue team or green team.....mannion will have smashed the reason d'etre of the union and will in time turn on the dub pilots who will be toothless if this battle is won by mannion. A victory for mannion will be a victory that mo'l has yearned for v the unions. It will have huge ramifications for unions in ireland as employers will see well if mannion shafted the pilots who are a tough bunch of employees, well we can do that to our own employees.
interesting days ahead for both sides. the dispute I reckon is sealed now....no going back for either side.....if no resolve, the week after will be a 3 day strike.
I relation to if salaries are uncompetitive no one will apply, well the bench mark for capts is very low, just 500hrs in cmd, so it will be swamped by every journey man in the game....wizz (jizz) air I reckon will close down with the amount of applications.
interesting days ahead for both sides. the dispute I reckon is sealed now....no going back for either side.....if no resolve, the week after will be a 3 day strike.
I relation to if salaries are uncompetitive no one will apply, well the bench mark for capts is very low, just 500hrs in cmd, so it will be swamped by every journey man in the game....wizz (jizz) air I reckon will close down with the amount of applications.
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it was the baggage handlers who did this, not the check-in staff
dead right, but was it not the check in staff who got them to erect the 'modesty screen' before they'd move down there? apparently at one very specifc angle a customer of a particular height could have possibly seen up a check in girls skirt as they walked across to their positions, hence those 'modesty screens' we see there now...
dead right, but was it not the check in staff who got them to erect the 'modesty screen' before they'd move down there? apparently at one very specifc angle a customer of a particular height could have possibly seen up a check in girls skirt as they walked across to their positions, hence those 'modesty screens' we see there now...
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it was the baggage handlers who did this, not the check-in staff
dead right, but was it not the check in staff who got them to erect the 'modesty screen' before they'd move down there? apparently at one very specifc angle a customer of a particular height could have possibly seen up a check in girls skirt as they walked across to their positions, hence those 'modesty screens' we see there now...
dead right, but was it not the check in staff who got them to erect the 'modesty screen' before they'd move down there? apparently at one very specifc angle a customer of a particular height could have possibly seen up a check in girls skirt as they walked across to their positions, hence those 'modesty screens' we see there now...
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That was reasonable and to suggest otherwise is unacceptable. People have the right to work with dignity and not to fuel purile fantast of getting a glimpse up someone's skirt.
Shannon's burning? Methinks not. The Government should not interfere. The reality is Shannon is well connected to London. It is not unreasonable to expect the people in Cork to drive to Shannon for transatlantic services and it is not unreasonable to expect the people in the Shannon hinterland to drive to Cork if they want to suffer a connection through Heathrow.
Shannon will develop as a A330 base with the hints from Dermot Mannion of further developments on that score. Shannon can expect to develop. Where are all the new planes going to be based? There may even be some short haul routes operated by A330 in the same manner as Dublin to Malaga and Faro as well as demand services such as Dublin CDG for the Rugby World Cup. There may even be a Shannon Heathrow service into one of those leased slots. That could easily depend on the volumes of cargo on the route as much as pax.
I am not going to comment further on the IMPACT/IALPA or management. It is clear there is good and bad on both sides. My only hope is that this is resoloved before there is hardship to the pilots and damage to the commerical future of Aer Lingus going forward. It is not that I don't have opinions but this is not the forum to discuss them. If someone wants to open a forum, please PM me.
Shannon's burning? Methinks not. The Government should not interfere. The reality is Shannon is well connected to London. It is not unreasonable to expect the people in Cork to drive to Shannon for transatlantic services and it is not unreasonable to expect the people in the Shannon hinterland to drive to Cork if they want to suffer a connection through Heathrow.
Shannon will develop as a A330 base with the hints from Dermot Mannion of further developments on that score. Shannon can expect to develop. Where are all the new planes going to be based? There may even be some short haul routes operated by A330 in the same manner as Dublin to Malaga and Faro as well as demand services such as Dublin CDG for the Rugby World Cup. There may even be a Shannon Heathrow service into one of those leased slots. That could easily depend on the volumes of cargo on the route as much as pax.
I am not going to comment further on the IMPACT/IALPA or management. It is clear there is good and bad on both sides. My only hope is that this is resoloved before there is hardship to the pilots and damage to the commerical future of Aer Lingus going forward. It is not that I don't have opinions but this is not the forum to discuss them. If someone wants to open a forum, please PM me.
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interesting..from todays Sunday Business Post
Ryanair now poised to win Shannon vote
19 August 2007 By David Clerkin and Niamh Connolly
Aer Lingus could still be forced to maintain its services between Shannon and Heathrow if the government or the airline’s Employee Share Ownership Trust (Esot) abstain in the crucial vote on the airline’s plan to end the route.
Ryanair could now win a knife-edge vote, forcing Aer Lingus to maintain the route, unless the government or the Esot use their shareholdings to support management’s plan.
Reports that the budget airline had increased its stake in Aer Lingus from 25 per cent to 28 per cent assumed crucial importance this weekend, following signals from the government that it was considering abstaining in the vote.
A decision by the government, which holds a 25.3 per cent stake in Aer Lingus, to abstain would leave the door open for Ryanair to block the transfer of the Heathrow route from Shannon to Belfast.
The vote will take place at an extraordinary general meeting (egm) called last week by Ryanair, which under company law must be held by early October.
An analysis of the Aer Lingus shareholder register suggests that the board can only count on the support of around 28 per cent of shareholders, mostly made up of institutions and pension funds that bought into the company when it floated.
Most fund managers operate under instructions that require them to follow the board’s recommendation when resolutions are put to shareholders for a vote.
Ryanair, however, would need only a handful of extra votes from other significant shareholders, including a pilots’ investment group and the pilots’ pension fund that between them own 4 per cent of Aer Lingus, to increase the pro-Shannon vote above 28 per cent, if both the government and the Esot decided to abstain.
Ryanair can also buy more Aer Lingus shares and increase its stake to a maximum of 29.9 per cent.
Aer Lingus management, however, would need the additional support of telecoms billionaire Denis O’Brien, who holds 2.3 per cent of the company, to come close to matching the voting power of Ryanair and the 4 per cent held by the two pilot groups.
In the event that the Esot opted to side with Ryanair, however, Aer Lingus’s management would then be forced to call on the government not to abstain and instead to vote in favour of its plan to scrap the Shannon routes.
Fianna Fail politicians in the mid-west and west are to lobby the government to abstain. The political lobby representing Oireachtas members in the region are expected to make the proposal in order to be consistent with the government’s stated intention not to intervene in commercial decisions.
The government moved to consolidate its position of nonintervention in Aer Lingus’s commercial freedom last week with statements issued from ministers Mary Hanafin and Dermot Ahern supporting Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey.
‘‘The logic of what the government is saying now in relation to ‘not intervening’ means that they can pursue a policy of abstaining at the egm,” said a mid-west Oireachtas member.
‘‘It would mean the government maintains its position of not interfering in the market. By voting in favour, they would be proactively intervening and leaving Ryanair and Esot in a minority position.”
Defeat of Aer Lingus management at an egm would have serious implications for its chief executive Dermot Mannion.
Mannion’s decision not to notify the board about the Shannon strategy was described in political circles as ‘‘peculiar’’, considering its far-reaching implications for the airline.
‘‘Mannion has certainly left himself wide open on this one if it does go back to the board,” one source said.
Minister for Defence Willie O’Dea said last week: ‘‘The way not to run a private company is to have the shareholders overrule management in relation to vital commercial decisions. It would certainly place management in a very difficult position so it would be a matter of last resort.”
Ryanair now poised to win Shannon vote
19 August 2007 By David Clerkin and Niamh Connolly
Aer Lingus could still be forced to maintain its services between Shannon and Heathrow if the government or the airline’s Employee Share Ownership Trust (Esot) abstain in the crucial vote on the airline’s plan to end the route.
Ryanair could now win a knife-edge vote, forcing Aer Lingus to maintain the route, unless the government or the Esot use their shareholdings to support management’s plan.
Reports that the budget airline had increased its stake in Aer Lingus from 25 per cent to 28 per cent assumed crucial importance this weekend, following signals from the government that it was considering abstaining in the vote.
A decision by the government, which holds a 25.3 per cent stake in Aer Lingus, to abstain would leave the door open for Ryanair to block the transfer of the Heathrow route from Shannon to Belfast.
The vote will take place at an extraordinary general meeting (egm) called last week by Ryanair, which under company law must be held by early October.
An analysis of the Aer Lingus shareholder register suggests that the board can only count on the support of around 28 per cent of shareholders, mostly made up of institutions and pension funds that bought into the company when it floated.
Most fund managers operate under instructions that require them to follow the board’s recommendation when resolutions are put to shareholders for a vote.
Ryanair, however, would need only a handful of extra votes from other significant shareholders, including a pilots’ investment group and the pilots’ pension fund that between them own 4 per cent of Aer Lingus, to increase the pro-Shannon vote above 28 per cent, if both the government and the Esot decided to abstain.
Ryanair can also buy more Aer Lingus shares and increase its stake to a maximum of 29.9 per cent.
Aer Lingus management, however, would need the additional support of telecoms billionaire Denis O’Brien, who holds 2.3 per cent of the company, to come close to matching the voting power of Ryanair and the 4 per cent held by the two pilot groups.
In the event that the Esot opted to side with Ryanair, however, Aer Lingus’s management would then be forced to call on the government not to abstain and instead to vote in favour of its plan to scrap the Shannon routes.
Fianna Fail politicians in the mid-west and west are to lobby the government to abstain. The political lobby representing Oireachtas members in the region are expected to make the proposal in order to be consistent with the government’s stated intention not to intervene in commercial decisions.
The government moved to consolidate its position of nonintervention in Aer Lingus’s commercial freedom last week with statements issued from ministers Mary Hanafin and Dermot Ahern supporting Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey.
‘‘The logic of what the government is saying now in relation to ‘not intervening’ means that they can pursue a policy of abstaining at the egm,” said a mid-west Oireachtas member.
‘‘It would mean the government maintains its position of not interfering in the market. By voting in favour, they would be proactively intervening and leaving Ryanair and Esot in a minority position.”
Defeat of Aer Lingus management at an egm would have serious implications for its chief executive Dermot Mannion.
Mannion’s decision not to notify the board about the Shannon strategy was described in political circles as ‘‘peculiar’’, considering its far-reaching implications for the airline.
‘‘Mannion has certainly left himself wide open on this one if it does go back to the board,” one source said.
Minister for Defence Willie O’Dea said last week: ‘‘The way not to run a private company is to have the shareholders overrule management in relation to vital commercial decisions. It would certainly place management in a very difficult position so it would be a matter of last resort.”
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Aerlingus will become a basket case if this scenario develops. An airline run by Unions and its chief competitor. I can't see the Government allowing Ryanair to dictate in this manner.
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I hardly think that AL is run by unions. More run by someone who hasn't a clue and is unwilling to negotiate on any level. He is giving up a perfectly profitable route which will make him even more money given that the airport is going to reduce its landing fees further in turn to set up in Belfast and go directly into competition with the likes of BMI and Easy to name but a few. Any sensible person would run a few routes to test the market and then consider a base at a later date.
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I hardly think that AL is run by unions. More run by someone who hasn't a clue and is unwilling to negotiate on any level
i would say that DM's days are numbered, i wonder who the next ceo will be in AL, sure MOL be thinking of leaving ryr, maybe he will take the job
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How many more Aerlingus CEO's are going to have to resign before we get a proper aviation policy in this country.
Excellent article in the Sunday Tribune today in which the writer pens a colour piece about what would happen in Britain if BA decided to discontinue a Prestwick-Heathrow service.
It's a humourous piece which shows how backward we still are when it comes to accepting the realities of the aviation business.
Also I see an IBEC survey showed that most business'in the Mid-West would suffer because of the inability to export freight to Heathrow from Shannon. Somebody forgot to tell them that Aerlingus gave up freight services on the route 5 years ago.
The so called Atlantic Connectivity Alliance also claims that Shannon will lose connectivity with 12 major North American cities if the Heathrow link goes. Did they not hear of the JFK and Boston hubs which they have direct access to?
Excellent article in the Sunday Tribune today in which the writer pens a colour piece about what would happen in Britain if BA decided to discontinue a Prestwick-Heathrow service.
It's a humourous piece which shows how backward we still are when it comes to accepting the realities of the aviation business.
Also I see an IBEC survey showed that most business'in the Mid-West would suffer because of the inability to export freight to Heathrow from Shannon. Somebody forgot to tell them that Aerlingus gave up freight services on the route 5 years ago.
The so called Atlantic Connectivity Alliance also claims that Shannon will lose connectivity with 12 major North American cities if the Heathrow link goes. Did they not hear of the JFK and Boston hubs which they have direct access to?
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I won't cling much hope on any reversal of the decision. The above described scenario is not new. IALPA are gaining the moral high ground with the letter they describe from Phil Flynn.
Heard a rumour from a former colleague re the possibility of a Dublin Salzburg link being developed beyond current service for the winter season as a scheduled service. Previous service to the airport noted and it would be in competition to Ryanair.
Heard a rumour from a former colleague re the possibility of a Dublin Salzburg link being developed beyond current service for the winter season as a scheduled service. Previous service to the airport noted and it would be in competition to Ryanair.
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Aer Lingus were right to drop Shannon Heathrow
Quote "He is giving up a perfectly profitable route which will make him even more money given that the airport is going to reduce its landing fees further in turn to set up in Belfast and go directly into competition with the likes of BMI and Easy to name but a few. Any sensible person would run a few routes to test the market and then consider a base at a later date."
That reflects poorly on SAA management not Aer Lingus management. Aer Lingus management made a decision on the yield and future growth on the basis of the fees they were currently been charged. The offer to cut landing fee only came after the decision was made to pull the route. SAA management should have been proactive and aware to the risk to the route. They were caught badly napping. I hope the Atlantic Connectivity Alliance look West too. Shannon has great connections to JFK and Chicago (as hubs) by Aer Lingus. To Heathrow, they can travel two hours to Cork. Cork is also well connected. They have great connections to Heathrow and to JFK and Chicago they are just two hours to Shannon.
For many of the connections onwards via Heathrow that are not (allegedly) lost from Shannon. Is it quicker to transit via a hub with all the hassles that go through it or is it easier to drive to Cork or Dublin not to count the many Ryanair services from Shannon and go point to point? The only relevant list is a list of airports served by Heathrow and not served by Cork, Dublin, Shannon, JFK and ORD. They are out there but it will be an eclectic list. The output would be a list of airports not served by Shannon by no more than two segments. The result would have to be compared to the output of those airports connected compared to those not connected. A lot of those 'not connected' are long haul and it could be reasonable to argue that the additional travelling time to/from Cork is negligible.
I am continually aware of the hypocrisy of the Shannon region who defended the stopover and are trying to defend the Shannon Heathrow link. Is their time more valuable than those previously affected by the Shannon stopover?
Decision is beautiful in it's execution. Shannon is an A330 family base. Cork is an A320 family base.
That reflects poorly on SAA management not Aer Lingus management. Aer Lingus management made a decision on the yield and future growth on the basis of the fees they were currently been charged. The offer to cut landing fee only came after the decision was made to pull the route. SAA management should have been proactive and aware to the risk to the route. They were caught badly napping. I hope the Atlantic Connectivity Alliance look West too. Shannon has great connections to JFK and Chicago (as hubs) by Aer Lingus. To Heathrow, they can travel two hours to Cork. Cork is also well connected. They have great connections to Heathrow and to JFK and Chicago they are just two hours to Shannon.
For many of the connections onwards via Heathrow that are not (allegedly) lost from Shannon. Is it quicker to transit via a hub with all the hassles that go through it or is it easier to drive to Cork or Dublin not to count the many Ryanair services from Shannon and go point to point? The only relevant list is a list of airports served by Heathrow and not served by Cork, Dublin, Shannon, JFK and ORD. They are out there but it will be an eclectic list. The output would be a list of airports not served by Shannon by no more than two segments. The result would have to be compared to the output of those airports connected compared to those not connected. A lot of those 'not connected' are long haul and it could be reasonable to argue that the additional travelling time to/from Cork is negligible.
I am continually aware of the hypocrisy of the Shannon region who defended the stopover and are trying to defend the Shannon Heathrow link. Is their time more valuable than those previously affected by the Shannon stopover?
Decision is beautiful in it's execution. Shannon is an A330 family base. Cork is an A320 family base.
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Amsterdam link for Shannon is the best solution
Aer Lingus' Cork to Amsterdam route is extremely profitable. I suggest that at the earliest opportunity Aer Lingus should base an new aircraft at Cork.
Then use this aircraft to operate W's:
ORK - AMS - SNN - AMS - ORK - AMS - SNN - AMS - ORK
Wouldn't all be hunky dory for Shannon then?
Additionally this extra aircraft could facilitate a daily ORK - GLA, an increase of ORK - MAN to daily, and a 4 weekly ORK - BRU.
One can dream...
Then use this aircraft to operate W's:
ORK - AMS - SNN - AMS - ORK - AMS - SNN - AMS - ORK
Wouldn't all be hunky dory for Shannon then?
Additionally this extra aircraft could facilitate a daily ORK - GLA, an increase of ORK - MAN to daily, and a 4 weekly ORK - BRU.
One can dream...
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Excellent article in the Sunday Tribune today in which the writer pens a colour piece about what would happen in Britain if BA decided to discontinue a Prestwick-Heathrow service.
It's a humourous piece which shows how backward we still are when it comes to accepting the realities of the aviation business.
It's a humourous piece which shows how backward we still are when it comes to accepting the realities of the aviation business.
And I assume you mean GLA-LHR
