Aer Lingus - 4

[Aisle2c]

Originally Posted by TRY2FLY

Don't get me wrong here because I'm in no way a political animal and I'm far from a lover of Fianna Fáil but do ya really think the shinners, the blue shirts or Pat Rabbit's Red Army would do any better

I do not believe that the others would have been rushing down the road of privatisation.

FF rushed headlong into privatising Eircom and look what happened, apart from it being a financial disaster for the general public, it stalled the broadband rollout for the last 5 years. FF are doing the same with co-location (which will prove to be another disaster), and God help anyone in the countryside when they privatise the ESB !

They thought they were being smart, yet again, but by allowing the loophole of slot movement, they have screwed up yet again.

[Aisle2c]

Question :

Does Shannon Airport have the right to give "exclusive" rights to an airline for operating the SNN-LHR route for say the next 10 years ?

Obviously Ryanair can't do it because they have no presence in LHR, but I would be concerned that if BMI took up the route that AL wouldn't switch a plane or two back to force them off the route as FR have done with Easyjet.

[ryan2000]

Reliable soursces tell me that BMI doesn't want to know. Padraig O Ceidigh gave a brilliant interview on RTE1 this morning in which he said that other airlines are not prepared to subsidise the Ryanair operation at Shannon.

They got the deal of the Century from Shannon in 2004. Cork were offered a similar deal but wisely refused to rise to the bait and now have a portfolio of nine airlines operating from there.

Ryanair are more than welcome to expand at Cork but only on the same terms as everyone else.

[CarbHeatIn]

What's all the fuss about?
Aer Lingus and its staff as well as the Irish public have been shafted by the Shannon lobby for years, artificially scuppering any US expansion, limiting routes to US, hindering competition and preventing EI from operating a proper network hub through DUB. At the same time FR were given the run of the place at SNN. A bit of payback me thinks. Try the DUB stopover on for size lads.
The whailing and gnashing of teeth is so misplaced. A LHR service from SNN is no more essential than one from NOC or KIR. The fact is that 75% of pax terminate their journey in London. FR with their " incentives" from the airport authority adequately serve these pax needs with their LGW, LTN and STN routes.
Of the 25% that connect through LHR, well they can connect through somewhere else. EI have left the One World alliance. They are expanding their own longhaul routes and being less of a feeder airline for BA etc.
The American continent is covered one stop through JFK.
Europe is more than covered through DUB, LGW, STN, LTN, MAN etc
Australia will still be 2 stops through DUB with Ethiad, or via LAX.
But don't forget all these connecting passengers are just 25% and this figure would be reducing overtime with the increased long haul options from Ireland.

[akerosid]

It may well be exaggerated, or it seen as a transfer of slots, rather than a disposal, but the fact of the matter is that there is a perception that the govt offered, indeed guaranteed, protection for SNN-LHR. That's something that hasn't been done in relation to other routes (well, apart from the other LHR-Ireland routes). The govt will have a choice; I don't think we're seeing the endgame here yet; I think there are a good few turns of the vice/thumbscrew yet, before the pain is felt. Again, if it comes down to it, do you think Bertie will manage not to buckle?

Western TDs: Get EI to restore the SNN-LHR route
Bertie: Sorry, out of our hands
TDs: Really, is that so? Right; we're resigning our whips. That'll give you an incentive. Your choice.
Bertie: (a) I'm really sorry; what part of "out of our hands" did you not understand?, or
(b) Guys, I'm sure we can come to an understanding?

Do you think Bertie will allow his govt to come to an end, after a few months, because of a few lousy slots at Heathrow, and risk the wrath of the entire midwest in an election? I really DON'T think so.

Of course, it's not going to happen overnight and an arrangement is going to have to be reached, whereby EI saves face as well - i.e. through significantly reduced landing charges. Of course, EI could be steadfast and say "absolutely no way", in which case incentives could be brought to bear, to "incentivise co-operation on EI's part) ...

"Did someone mention Emirates or Virgin setting up a t/a base at Dublin? (EI would just love that ... but we could keep them out, if we got a little co-operation from EI ...)", or something along those lines. The more the "pain" is felt at a political level, the more likely it is that something will be done to "encourage" EI. This isn't about aviation or economics; that's the mistake a lot of people (myself included) made about the stopover; we were putting logical arguments for direct services when the reality was that the SNN lobby had the govt's "nether regions" (so to speak) in a vice and they were damned if they were going to let go.

Ultimately, regardless of whether the effect on SNN/midwest is seen as exaggerated or whether only 25% of pax connect at LHR, the perception is the reality and with the passage of time, that vice is going to tightened until the govt, in a very high pitched squel, is forced to incentivise a rethink on EI's part. It doesn't matter if it means Mannion has to go; when politics and aviation mix, aviation always loses. It might take weeks, it might take 2-3 years, but they'll make the pain felt and they'll get "their" route back ...

[CaptKremin]

Originally Posted by CaptKremin
Anybody taking odds yet on how much longer Mannions tender as CEO will last?

Originally Posted by Aisle2c

I think he could last years, after all he has taken the correct decision for the company that he leads. He may even get a deserved bonus.

Aisle2c, I think you had your tongue in cheek there.
Mannion has placed himself in the middle of a political row of monumental import to this country. As if he hasn't created enough of a row down West, he's got Norn Iron in the mix too. His latest (and soon to be greatest) blunder is to write to the ALT Pilots telling them he'll only hire Northern Protestants as pilots in the Belfast base! I kid you not! He's attempting to twist NI Fair Employment Laws to suit his agenda of breaking IALPA.

The guy has lost the run of himself and is heading for the door. Bertie will sacrifice anyone to save his own skin. If (when) he is forced to reverse his decision, it means an effective vote of no confidence in his management, and he will have no alternative but to resign.

Like Akerosid wrote - "It doesn't matter if it means Mannion has to go; when politics and aviation mix, aviation always loses."

[ryan2000]

Mightn't be as easy for the Government to put narrow political interests first on this occasion. Mannions RTE interview was very interesting, if I were in Shannon I'd listen very closely to what he had to say about the decision been taken in the context of Shannon's long haul flights to JFK and BOS. It appears that only 25% on SNN LHR transit onwards and most of them travel on to North America.

Aerlingus are now hoping that they will switch to the direct services from SNN and travel onward with Jetblue.

This might ultimately help SNN to sustain the transatlantic services long term. Shannon should be under no illusions, all bets will be off when open skies kicks in.

[Livinginthepast]

Well done Aer Lingus - Heroes

• 75% of the traffic is point to point - fact. Alternatives exist, not only to Shannon, but also to Galway, Knock and Kerry.
• A substantial proportion of the remainder (25%) is to the continental USA - fact. They have the alternative to hub via JFK, Boston and Chicago O’Hare which are in themselves significant hubs.
• Belfast has increasing demands for point to point, shorthaul and longhaul services. It does not have a transatlantic link so a link to Heathrow not to count Amsterdam and others present a significant commercial opportunity..

The decision for Shannon with time is looking even more correct not less. The opportunity for Shannon and what these vocal lobby groups should be calling for is development of transatlantic services on a commerical basis and not under the historic protectionist basis of the now thankfully defunct Shannon stopover. If the people of Shannon embrace this opportunity it will work. What airline would enter the market given the impression that the region is giving at present in the media?

[Livinginthepast]

Australia

Well commented. Australia is currently three segments via Heathrow and two via Los Angeles.

[Livinginthepast]

Why not

"However, AL are fighting dirty so why can't the people of the Mid-West defend their interests in return ?"

One reason is the failure for the region to demonstrate it can accept and embrace the opportunity that comes with change, the confidence to develop new and existing air travel markets. Shannon hasn't closed with the loss of the thankfully defunct Shannon stopover but has developed as a hub for European travel. What impression would any airline considering to enter the region with new business get? I have formed the impression that the people who argue for the Shannon stopover and / or the retention of the Shannon Heathrow link are supporters of protectionism and anti development. It is not the right to defend their interests, which less face it are four short haul flights a day, but how they go about it.

[heidelberg]

Shannon Protectionism

Shannon has got used to 40 years or more proctectionism.
Welcome to the real world of competition which includes Airlines coming to Shannon and going elsewhere from Shannon; to Belfast or wherever.
The hypocracy of the vested State employees and former State (EI)employees at Shannon knows no bounds; I also include local politicians.
But, the hypocracy being shown by the Private sector is seriously crazy. These have received millions from Enterprise Ireland over the last 40 years and have done very well out of setting up at Shannon.
As for their Lordships of the RC and Protestant churces jumping on the band wagon! God help them - because nobody else will.
Aer Lingus is now part of the real commercial world and local vested interests at Shannon or/and Politicians are wasting their breath with their protests.
It is now up to AL to lower their cost base in the Republic and maximise the profits in the interest of their shareholders - which happen to include their staff! Will the staff and their unions agree to this? I wonder?
Meanwhile MOL/Ryanair are laughing all the way to bigger profits out of Shanon, Cork and Dublin operations.

[CaptKremin]

The hypocracy of the vested State employees and former State (EI)employees at Shannon knows no bounds

The hypocrisy(sp!) of the staff?
'Scuse me mate, but people wanting to keep their jobs is not hypocrisy - its self preservation. Where is the 'hypocrisy' in this?
I can sympathise with them as they are merely piggies in the middle of this tug of war.

But, the hypocracy being shown by the Private sector is seriously crazy.

Now yer talkin'! The REAL hypocrisy is that of the neo-liberal cheer-leaders (of which you are clearly one) who on the one hand won't be happy until the whole world is 'privatised' and subject to the 'free market' and considers only 'the shareholders' interests above all else, but on the other hand start bleating and pooing themselves when their right wing fundamentalism bites them back. What a laugh! To see IBEC (of all people) up in arms to reverse 'a commercial decision'!
Now THAT is hypocrisy, my hypocritical little friend.

[eastern wiseguy]

Livinginthe past

Belfast has increasing demands for point to point, shorthaul and longhaul services. It does not have a transatlantic link

Agree with everything except Continental run daily to EWR.
I have read this thread with growing amazement. What on earth does SNN want? It has been coddoled and protected by the artificial nonsense of a stopover for years. This is a cold hard economic world.Aer Lingus is a commercial organisation and they will go where the profit is.They have pulled OUT of BFS TWICE in my time there.
As for losing services BFS LOST almost 50% of it's traffic OVERNIGHT after 9/11(yes Aer Lingus was one).We lost our LHR routes BOTH of them. We had an apron that resembled an underused carpark.
We survived.We now have somewhere in the region of 5,000,000 pax per annum and we are looking at more.
The catchment is for the entire 9 northern counties to say nothing of the inward passengers.
Stop whining...embrace what you have and remember there is a rapid connection from all the London airports to the centre.

[Tom the Tenor]

True Blue's remarks are spot on about how the easyJet pull out from snn last autumn did not have the local action groups up in arms. Unable to comment on Knock but there was plenty said in the local media in Cork at the time about easyJet's departure. There were three daily flights for a while and after easyJet left Ryanair cut down from two flights to one at Cork.

[Aisle2c]

Originally Posted by Livinginthepast

I have formed the impression that the people who argue for the Shannon stopover and / or the retention of the Shannon Heathrow link are supporters of protectionism and anti development. It is not the right to defend their interests, which less face it are four short haul flights a day, but how they go about it.

The issue (for me anyway) isn't about protectionism or anti development, it is about the entire SNN-LHR link going, and potentially Cork-LHR as well. If Aer Lingus had reduced the SNN-LHR to say, two (and perhaps added a SNN-AMS), that would have been fair enough. Strategically, it is important to have kept the link there. I don't believe Mannion overly taxed his grey cells in trying to come up with an equitable solution. As someone else said, AL have been waiting to do this for years.

[Sober Lark]

Aer Lingus are not doing Belfast any favours.

A lot of media comments here about Aer Lingus transferring their LHR slots from Shannon to Belfast.

Since Ryanair have become a 25% share holder they seem to have some sort of agreement about not competing on certain routes out of Ireland.

Yes they launch new routes to great press fanfare but no one seems to notice the ones they axe.

Aer Lingus are not doing Belfast any favours. All it means is eventually you'll have two airlines (or perhaps one) serving the whole island of Ireland and when that happens do you think they'll be giving us EUR10 or £5 fares to get off the island???

Lads and Lassies in EI the two glasses of Champagne on your home page are for the prolitariate. The shareholders say it should be a pint of the black stuff instead because you're business model is like the toll bridge on the M50 - pure genius.

[Bearcat]

pure drivel...

[positive]

Shannon

At the end of the day market forces will decide if another airline comes onto the Shannon/heathrow route and if its worth it from the money end.Lets face it the route is a very short sector and from the Heathrow slots end it may not attract attention.Now listening from all the lobby groups crying about the loss of the route,the open skies deal was well flagged for a number of years,rather than prepare for it the lobby groups/politicians all tried to stop what was going to happen now if they had put in the same effort in dealing with the problem things would be different.The SAA gave Ryanair a good deal the plus side more traffic the down side very few new airlines to compete with Ryanair on their base.Aer Lingus are now a private company and their routes will be decided by money rather than lobby groups/politicians at the end of the day the pressure Ryanair are putting Aer Lingus under at Dublin I would not be surprised to see further routes/aircraft being moved from Dublin.The Shannon stopover has now being partly moved to the Dublin Stopover,lets hope they don't face the same timeframe as we had.Its gone full circle time to face reality folks.

[Dublin Airgirl]

oh dear lord, have you been following developments since the bid was shot down at all????

[Dublin Airgirl]

the biggest legacy of the shannon stopover is this tremendous sense of entitlement it has inflicated snn with, both the airport and the region. if the region had spent last week focusing its attentions on getting someone to fly to another hub they'd probably have someone signed up by now. in chasing aer lingus they're going after a horse that has long bolted. but this is snn, snn believe they are entitled to heathrow and not any old european hub. and they believe they're entitled to be brought to london by the former national carrier, not any old airline.