Air France

[Me Myself]

As an Air France pilot I really couldn't care less for Alitalia. I need them like a hole in my head and as far as I'm concerned Berlusconi can have the whole lot.
You won't find many AF employees who were happy with the deal going through.
Frankly tough luck for Alitalia as you couldn't find a more decent boss. Mr Spinetta is the best chairman this airline ever had.
I find the french way of dealing really difficult at times but I certainly wasn't ready for the italians.
Berlusconi is going to burry Alitalia into the ground, cockyness is sweet when campaining, different ball game when actually running the country.
Speaking of adds in Flight Intl', don't hold your breath, unless you speak fluent french you don' t stand a chance. As to DEC............put that bottle of malt back on the table.

[captplaystation]

I can see all the Air France pilots now, busy buying holiday homes in Italy, hoping they can register early enough to vote Silvio in.
So what will be the new callsign of Air Mafia then ? ( " I have the backing of some very important banks" Hmmn. . . .) we already have "Frankie" what next ?

[PAXboy]

It does not matter who wields the sword at AZ - someone is going to have to. It might be AF/KLM; it might Air One; it might the official Receiver when they go bankrupt;

Or ... Berlusconi gets in and changes all the laws in his favour (done it before) and saves them to enable the state to continuing employing people in a non-commercial way. That has happened before in countries all around the globe, not just Italy.

AZ is a basket case and if the state want to pay people to do non-jobs, then they are entitled to do so.

[172driver]

AZ is a basket case and if the state want to pay people to do non-jobs, then they are entitled to do so.

As long as they don't use OUR tax money (via the EU) for it.

[testpanel]

Do any you guys know that Alitalia has an office, 13-15 people working there; only to think of names for new/future airplanes?
And why are they loosing money everyday..........

I am very sorry for the people involved but aviation today is not anymore what the italian make you and me (and esp. themselves) think it is.

Sell it and get your stuff together!

[MPH]

And an other office that decides what music should be heard O/B!!!
I think that it´s also something like 10 people!!

[toomuchradiations]

air frogs

me myself, you are just despicable, your nationalistic comments are pointless and if i were you i'd concentrate on improving your english on the R/T before commenting any further.

[captplaystation]

Don't have a problem with your comments Me Myself.
Quite obviously you don't want your employers current profits drained by a bunch of no-hopers.
Your operating language in the cockpit is French, so that French fluency is taken as an essential.
No legacy carrier takes DEC, so nothing unusual there.
I am impressed with the amount of cash AF are spending on advertising in "Flight International", 1, sometimes 2 half page ads a week for the last , what, 6 or more weeks ?
If French is a must it's a big campaign for an English language magazine, are they really that short, or is a Berlitz course included now in the induction training.Or perhaps you are allocated a nice hostess during your 9 month induction to learn " on the pillow" ? well it's a nice idea, non ?
Don't know how you upset the previous poster so much. . . and to think I am the one normally accused of being Francophobic. . . . Phah.

[planeenglish]

As the propeller turns...

Metaphorically,

AZ Unions are throwing fits in the toy aisle but mommy is already at the check-out. So now the Unions are throwing the women, children and old folks off the bow of the Titanic.



PE

[Me Myself]

too much radiation. nothing to do with nationalistic pride but plain good sense. I'm working for a money making airline where, by and large, people know the job.
Why should I relish the prospect of working with a bunch of clowns. I've had to deal with Alitalia ground engineers while on short haul and I got to be afraid, very afraid.
It's taken us time and hurdles to get where we are and I am not in the mood to to live in a mad house ever again.
My R/T is just fine mate, Mum is english and it actually was the first language I got to hear as a toddler. So, does " take a hike " sound like a reasonable suggestion ??
Captainpalystation. As far as I'm concerned, the Yorhshire Dales are where I would buy a home. Don't like pasta. My right isn't it ? As to Flight Intl add, who knows, maybe there are pilots out there who speak french. We are a little bit over 4000, a handfull of non native among us who, for one reason or another, managed to learn french and then join. No problem with that.
Should anyone want to join KLM, Lufthansa, SAS, they'd have to speak the language. Swiss take over by Lufthansa ? Everyone speaks german. Just the way it is and rightly so. Call that despicably nationalistic, coming from a Pom sitting on his toush in Brighton ( too much radiation )is a real treat !! It's just the way it is and is going to be, cuz, sure as egg, we ain't learning italian.
That joining AF might be part of the deal for some AZ pilots is the best joke I ever heard.
I think it's more like " They're welcome to go for the interview " and probably get axed because of language problems.
It's one thing not many people seem to understand on this site. Not very many AF employees are happy about the deal even being talked about. I think mainly because it reminds us of what we were 15 years ago and that we came inches from meeting AZ's fate. Just like AZ we were given a lot of money by the government bending EEC rules a notch, BUT unlike AZ we didn't blow it and WE staff , turned this airline around knowing very well we wouldn't get lucky twice. This is still very much in everyone's mind and we don't want to go through that again.
This is management wet dream and maybe, from the business point of view, it's a good one, at least on paper. Our experience as flight crews is altogether very different in our dealings in various italian ports.
I totally respect AZ employee's wish to stay all italian and I support them with all my heart.
To finish. Not very many people seem to remember that AF/KLM merger got stalled for a short while because of Commandatore Berlusnoni's pressure on the french government to be part of the deal. Chairman Spinetta wasn't at all in favour and said AZ would have to get its act together before any talk of merging could take place. That was only 4 years ago. Now he wants the exact opposite, most probably because AZ is such a success.
Berlusconi is only using AZ as a step to Prime ministership and he'll drop them like a hot potatoe the minute he is appointed.
Make no mistake, someone, wether british, german or french will come to scoop the remains once the party is over.

[PAXboy]

172driver

As long as they don't use OUR tax money (via the EU) for it.

Oh for sure, yes. If they can find ways around to use 'local' cash then fine.

planeenglish Your post is magnificent and, given your location, may have seen things close up. For the hope of saving some jobs, I trust that the take over occurs. AZ have managed to last longer than expected (likewise OA) but it shows how powerful was the 1950s~70s era of the airline as representing the country. The USA has the same problem in allowing Chapter 11 to be used to 'save' the carriers. Now, at long last, it looks as if they are going to be sensible and start merging before they start folding.

Around the globe, in mergers and failures, there is a lot more pain to come. Particularly in the recession that is now affecting the US and UK (not yet official but read the financials) and other countries may also be affected as the US economy slides down the scale. Airlines are going to be in trouble and AZ had better take this offer whilst it can.

[Me Myself]

Do I remember mate !! It wasn't a good time.There were hoodles of french pilots looking for jobs and you guys were brought in to g " grab " expansion as the then chairman said. They were so short sighted that they had not forseen expansion. As to the french test ))) Give me a break, the whole thing was a farce and at any rate it was a short scheme for training purpose. They all went home to everyone's satisfaction.
But what am I fretting about, you're saying no anyway. Where can I register to vote for Berlu ?

[Me Myself]

Acrid attitude ??? Frankly, I wish you all the luck in the world...........in Italy. I do not take pleasure in seeing people lose their jobs
I just do not fancy or trust your ways. We've had that too long and we seem to be heading in the right direction now. KLM is far more toward my natural leanings when it comes to work.
Even the few italians who work for us don't want to see this happen. What does that tell you ?
Nothing personal mate, just don't want to see a repeat of 93 and there are enough able young men in France to drive airplanes. The thing is not to pretend " Dear me !! We didn't see expansion coming " just to shop outside.

[main_dog]

Why should I relish the prospect of working with a bunch of clowns.

I just do not fancy or trust your ways.

How endearing, Me Myself: sorry but you are coming across a tad bigoted (an unfortunate combination of your two nations' worst characteristics?)

As you said yourself, you AF fellow-pilots were in the exact same boat not so long ago... you were fortunate enough to have a government/management smart enough to bail you out and set you on the straight and narrow; AZ on the other hand have had a succession of governments/CEOs who made monumentally disastrous decisions, piled damage upon damage and then waltzed all the way to the bank.

As a case in point compare Spinetta's retribution with that of AZ's last 3/4 CEOs. Yep, they were making well over TWICE AS MUCH as the CEO of your very profitable and much bigger airline... as a matter of fact they were pocketing almost as much as Willie Walsh, Wolfgang Mayrhuber and Jean-Cyril PUT TOGETHER ! Now the employees, as always, will pay the price.

By the way I worked for those "clowns" for a number of years, and the truth is that they are a very bizarre combination of an extremely professional airline from an operational point of view (up in the sharp end, in the training dept., and frankly most of the ground techs) and a stodgy bureaucratic nightmare of a 1960s ministry in all other aspects... you may recognize this from AF 15 years back, non?

Don't like pasta.

Believe me most AZ employees don't feel like eating baguettes either, it's just that the alternative is... going hungry.

[Me Myself]

" you were fortunate enough to have a government/management smart enough to bail you out and set you on the straight and narrow; AZ on the other hand have had a succession of governments/CEOs who made monumentally disastrous decisions, piled damage upon damage and then waltzed all the way to the bank. "

Main dog, you sound like an old school master of mine. Very refreshing.
The main difference however when we were in.........well, basically the poo, was that we didn't march down the streets to claim jobs elsewhere. I can only imagine the kind of welcome we would have been met with.
We, like all the rest of the staff, just ploughed through very aware that no second chance was around the corner. As you also said, we were also blessed with a CEO name Christian Blanc who was ballsy enough to face the government and get the " political " freedom he absolutly needed.
Spinetta followed in a very different style, none the less efficient.
Your analogy with 60's burocracy is spot on.
As to pilots ?? Well, it ain't like before as the saying goes. My salary has continuously increased, along with my flight hours and I think we kind of find ourselves in the position australian pilots ( aren't you one of those 767's ? ) found themselves after 89, flying more.........making more '( very trendy in France nowadays ).

Why should AZ be part of a deal and fast tracked into AF when AOM/Air Liberté pilots had to go through all the red tape to join ??? Only a handfull did. The others are scattered around.
We've been through 2 french mergers and one of them was a real headache. Don't need another and a cross border one, thank you very much !
We have enough university students to fill all the cadet programs in the world...........provided you start them in time !! And this is the very issue here.
I know only one system and it goes as follows :
- Meet requirements ( language, licence.........whatever the employer sees fit ). Where you come from is totally irrelevant to me as long as the same rule applies to everyone.
- Go through the selection process like everyone does.
- Join at the bottom of the pile, like everyone does when lucky enough to get the job.
This gives us, algerian, belgian ( french and dutch speaking ), italian, english, irish, sprinkle of swiss, and last but not least one japanese ..................pilots.
Cabin crew ?? Austrian, german, dutch, italian, japanese, english, US, and certainly others I haven't met.

Isn't that the way it went for the few Ansett who joined QF.
Isn't that the way it goes for most of the airlines in the world ???
I'd be very curious to see BA making a bid for AZ.

Call me bigot, I take it as a compliment. Where I come from, we look after our own first.

I Ford

Thanks to Google, I did my homework and indeed found an italian article mentioning CEO Spinetta throwing in the rescue of 180 AZ pilots including " fast carreer opportunities ". Do I need to tell you no one here has a clue of what he is promising ?
I don't know what he means by fast and, more important, what you guys make of it but there will be a hoodle of other people who will have a say on what " fast " means.
From what I understand, a little bit over a 1000 union pilots seem to be calling the shots for the rest of the airline, that's a way to win friends.

Odly enough, French ALPA is extremely silent on the matter and this not a good sign, specially before union elections taking place very soon.

[BRE]

MeMyself: "Swiss take over by Lufthansa ? Everyone speaks german."



I don't know if German is the official operating language in the cockpits of LH (probably not), but even so, your arguement is skewed:

- To the best of my knowledge, Swiss is still being operated as a separate airline, and there is no crew mixing.
- Not all Swiss pilots are native speakers of German.
- The differences between Swiss and German are quite substantial, and communication between educated individuals can break down over unexpected points. I would rather not depend on it to work in a safety critical enviroment.

[DBate]

I don't know if German is the official operating language in the cockpits of LH (probably not)

It is.

Concerning your other points:

- To the best of my knowledge, Swiss is still being operated as a separate airline, and there is no crew mixing.
- Not all Swiss pilots are native speakers of German.

That is absolutely correct.

Finally:

- The differences between Swiss and German are quite substantial, and communication between educated individuals can break down over unexpected points. I would rather not depend on it to work in a safety critical enviroment.

As far as I know, there are several Swiss pilots (Swiss nationals i.e., not pilots employed by Swiss International Airlines) working at the different subsidiaries of Lufthansa. Works quite well, no problems so far...

[geriatrix]

I too was lucky enough to work for these "clowns" for many many years, and agree completely with main-dog's comments. An extraordinary mixture of dedicated and technically able people mixed with bureaucratic buffoons, who were just there because they had some connections.

Despite this, I enjoyed it greatly, and also leant a lot about swift damage limitation procedures... I think the BA lot at T5 could have done with some help from AZ..... :-)

And I hope with all my heart that AZ survives somehow...

[Me Myself]

D Bate

I usually fly Swiss when going off skiing and I've witnesed several times F/O's, obviously in training, flying with a " Swiss " training captain.
That they're operated separatly is a fact.

Mr Spinetta once said AF and KLM should be operated as 2 different airlines and that mixing pilots was not only out of the question but a very bad idea. Why shouldn't this apply to AZ ? Cultural differences are huge make no mistake. No common language here either.
Again had management done things in time, we would have cadet programs rollling at full speed. In a country of 60 Million people with a high rate of unemployement among university graduates, don't tell me we need 180 pilots from outside.

Quote:
- The differences between Swiss and German are quite substantial, and communication between educated individuals can break down over unexpected points. I would rather not depend on it to work in a safety critical enviroment.

Precisely my point.

"I think the BA lot at T5 could have done with some help from AZ..... :-) "

Yeah, sure, and Milan and Rome are state of the art hubs !! ))


Trust me, I too wish AZ to survive.

[BRE]

"As far as I know, there are several Swiss pilots (Swiss nationals i.e., not pilots employed by Swiss International Airlines) working at the different subsidiaries of Lufthansa. Works quite well, no problems so far..."


No doubt. It is quite easy for Swiss and Germans to adapt and avoid the pitfalls after some exposure. However, throwing a crew together randomly might in some rare cases result in misunderstandings.