SOUTHEND - 2

[Phileas Fogg]

Shamrock,

For anybody living in the Greater London suburbs and/or home counties LCY is a right pain in the butt to travel to/from on public transport ..... an overland train, then the tube, then the docklands light railway or similar.

[NorthSouth]

Expressflight:

the A319 will be able to operate commercially from its 1,799m runway to many worthwhile destinations...Go to the airbus website and look at the performance graphs for yourselves

I'd caution against using that as your guide. For a start they're based on a "typical 2-class passenger payload". That's code for a full-service airline with relatively high yields and a lower break-even load factor than locos or holiday charter airlines. That means they can take off lighter. If Southend intends to go for that market they will be directly head-to-head with LCY. They may get there eventually but I see no evidence that they see that as a key market.

As I've said before, failing having a flight ops person from an A319-equipped airline on this thread, the best guide to the feasibility of A319 ops out of Southend is looking at the airports where A319s currently operate - and where they don't.

NS

[Aero Mad]

NS, here is a good example of a place you mention.

Isle of Man (08/26 runway is 1754m long). easyJet operates the Isle of Man - Liverpool route which takes roughly 50 minutes with an A319. They also operate Liverpool - Jersey (09/27 runway is 1706m long) with A319s.

Southend won't be head-to-head with City for higher tier carriers because whilst City is meant to be a centrally located STOLport, Southend is not and can function as a London airport for people outside London, whereas City only really functions as a London airport for those who live in London - and it is rather a pain to reach from the outside.

However, Southend is much easier to reach if you live in East Anglia, Essex or Sussex/Surrey/Kent. You either train to Euston (or whatever they call it) and then swap or you nip on the M25. Simples

[airferries]

I thought easyjet had aircraft which are equipped with fewer fuel tanks and are subsequently lighter than A319s operated by most other airlines.
Anyway, from what I am aware of, there is greater substance to the easyjet rumour than 'North South' would like to believe. I'm sure an A319 might struggle to get to Larnaca from Southend, but there are far more much closer worthwhile destinations which they may be interested to explore.

[EI-BUD]

easyJet operates the Isle of Man - Liverpool route which takes roughly 50 minutes with an A319

Hey AeroMad; I think you will find that this flight is only 40 mins as per timetable and more like 20 mins flying!!!
It is probably the shortest route on the Easyjet network followed closely by BFS GLA!

EI-BUD

[Phileas Fogg]

Gibraltar, and let us not forget that GIB experiences higher temperatures than Sarfend-on-Sea, has a runway length of 1,628m, a quick peek on airliners.net reveals, operating to/from, Monarch & BA/GB A320's, EZY & Iberia A319's, Air Europe B737-300's and, indeed, Monarch B757's and these guys ain't operating 20/40 minute sectors.

And if proof were needed:



Yep, Sarfend must be doomed to Embraers and Puddle Jumpers!

[Expressflight]

North South

I'm fully aware of the basis on which the Airbus graphs are drawn up and I have applied exactly the correcting factors that you mention, otherwise I would have been crowing that an A319 can operate a sector of over 2,000nm from SEN wouldn't I?
Obviously it cannot, but using the appropriate corrections I don't see why 1,000nm seems over optimistic. Of course obstacles in the climbout area have an affect on RTOW as well and that may become a consideration on runway 24 departures.

As you say, it would be interesting to hear from someone who has access to the relevant SOPs and FM for the A319. Any takers out there?

Its can be rather misleading for others to quote raw runway lengths as examples elsewhere as TODA is generally greater than that. Physically SEN's TODA will be greater than 1,799m but that is the limit set by the CAA for a Code 3C runway so 1,799m is what must go into the RTOW calculation.

[compton3bravo]

Sorry Phileas a bit out of date I am afraid about Gib or to give its correct name RAF North Gibraltar.
Monarch, BA and easy use only the A319 or A320 into Gib, no more B757s after a couple of very near scrapes some years ago. Also it is Captains only on landings with the problems of the winds etc. circulating around the rock. So from that point of view your prognosis with Southend does not really stand up.
It is quite an interesting landing at Gib especially the one when you have to go around the rock and fly over Algerciras Bay!

[Phileas Fogg]

Compton,

One of the first times I flew was Lyneham-Gibraltar-Luqa-Kinloss-Lyneham in a military C-130, certainly wasn't allowed to enter Spanish airspace and a most interesting flight or two around the rock.

OK Sarfend doesn't have a rock, apes perhaps but no rock , but the length of runway is not material to GIB being Captain's only, they put A320/B737's in/out of such places as Chios (1,511m runway in heat) without any such restriction, but GIB to London must be circa 2 hours 45 minutes, in an A320, off a runway shorter than SEN's and in heat, yet these other guys seem brainwashed in to only discussing A319's and, kind of, "no chance" in/out SEN!

[AirLCY]

SEN needs Flybe with a base of 3 or 4 Q4's, good brand and no conflict as they don't fly LCY or STN. In addition they need charter carriers to W into SEN on peak leisure routes, TCX and TOM won't want a base so close to STN

[NorthSouth]

Aero Mad:

Isle of Man (08/26 runway is 1754m long). easyJet operates the Isle of Man - Liverpool route which takes roughly 50 minutes with an A319

Actually the IoM runway 08/26 is 1837m long, but it has a TODA of 2815m on 08 and 2057m on 26.

They also operate Liverpool - Jersey (09/27 runway is 1706m long) with A319s

But Jersey TODA is 1889m on rwy 09 and 2469m on 27.

Phileas Fogg: Gib runway is 1829m with civil TODAs of 2518m in both directions (source: UK Mil AIP)

Expressflight:

Physically SEN's TODA will be greater than 1,799m but that is the limit set by the CAA for a Code 3C runway so 1,799m is what must go into the RTOW calculation

As I understand it Southend's TODA is limited by the Runway End Safety Areas, not by some arbitrary limit placed on it because it has to remain a Code 3C. And since the recommended RESAs for Code 3 are the same as Code 4 it would make no difference to the declared distances if they went for Code 4. But in any case, whatever the reasons, the planning application for the Southend runway extension gives the following declared distances for the extended runway:
06 24
TODA 1739 1739
TORA 1799 1799
LDA 1604 1604
ASDA 1658 1739

Now, you'll probably spot that having TORA>TODA looks a bit odd, so it's my guess they got those transposed when compiling the Environmental Statement. But the upshot is, extended Southend's TODA in both directions will be less than IoM, Jersey, Gib etc. Its LDA of 1604m will be similar to IoM and Jersey but 75m longer than Gibraltar. But LDA is usually less critical because you can plan to land with little fuel, especially if the alternates are close at hand.

NS

[Phileas Fogg]

NorthSouth,

To be honest I'm not going to lose any sleep whether SEN makes it into the big time or not, from my past I just know SEN to be an under-rated airport in a reasonable location and with a good weather record, i.e. in my past life(s) I've put Brymon DHC7's and large volumes of Air UK fleet(s) into SEN when other airports, LHR, STN, NWI, have been weather closed.

I watched and watched this thread and only posted when I realised the continued naivity being posted, these guys keep on about A319's because that is what an orange (supposed but not really) 'loco' operates, to hell with the loco's, these modern day loco's lower the tone of a place, and I say this having previously, and very proudly, worked for the UK's first loco (Sir FAL) back in the 1970's.

These guys also keep on about Embraers, no doubt a reference to FlyBE or whatever they call themselves this week, what about Fokker's, what about CRJ's, what about BAe146's, what about MD87's and so on, these types being operated by KLM, Air France, Lufthansa, SAS, Swiss etc!

Until recently my local airport was BHX, having worked at airports most of my life I hate airports but I loved the smaller terminal at BHX, until they let the loco (cheapskates) into the terminal that was, travelling on Air France, KLM, SAS, Swiss, Lufthansa etc. regional (up to B737 size) aircraft from a business type terminal was just perfect ..... until they let the loco's in that was!

Model SEN on BHX's smaller terminal, minus any loco's, and it'll be a step in the right direction.

[Nakata77]

Look ahead not back

Embrace change Phileas Fogg - sounds like you're afraid to leave the past. All this talk about Dash 7's and MD-87's. LOL!

I'm afraid the judgement on loco's is not very politically correct either. They don't just cater for cheapskates you know. Loco's have been great at proving you can cut out a lot of bull**** in business.

I think the reason it was so wonderful to fly through BHX terminals before loco's arrived was because all the airlines were operating at 50-60% loads and charging an arm and a leg to get anywhere.

Loco's also responsible for adding competition, therefore kicking the traditional carriers into improving their own operations and becoming more efficient.

SEN, i agree with AirLCY, should be targeting (as im sure they are) Flybe for 3 or 4 based aircraft. Whether that is Dash 8, ERJ-175 or ERJ-190 is open to debate.

[Expressflight]

North South

You're correct about the TORA and TODA figures having been transposed in the planning document but not, unfortunately, about the reason for SEN having a TODA limited to 1,799m.

SEN is a Code 3C aerodrome because its runway width is 37m. To attain Code 4 status it would need a runway width of 45m and this is impossible to achieve due to runway strip width requirements. CAP 168 states that for a Code 3C aerodrome 'the greater of TODA or ASDA can be be from 1,200m up to but not including 1,800m'.
Hence the declared limit of 1,799m for SEN's extended runway: nothing to do with RESA limitations.

I agree with others that Flybe is a likely candidate for SEN operations. In fact, they were on the point of basing two Q400s there a few years ago and a four year agreement was drawn up. They had planned to operate 146 W-patterns as well but, unfortunately, they were just replacing them with the E195 and it was discovered than SEN's LDA on 06 of 1,285m was too short for that new type in 'Wet' runway conditions so the plan was abandoned. The new LDA's of 1,604m will obviously eliminate this problem for both the E195 and larger types such as the A319.

Edit: I should also have mentioned that the ASDA on both 06 & 24 will be 1,739m, not the lower figure for 06 as mentioned by North South.

[Phileas Fogg]

Nakata77,

You are very much mistaken, I am a business traveller, whether I'm paying for my own travel or not I do endeavour to keep the budget to a minimum however.

You talk 'sh1t' that ALL the airlines, except loco's, operate at 50/60% load factors whilst charging an arm and a leg, so often loco's are unable to provide me with the schedule I require and indeed, so often, it is these loco's that, often by deception, charge an arm and a leg.

Some examples:

I would occasionally be required to travel BHX/MXP/BHX, no loco operates the route, loco's operate to/from BGY which, to me, is as much use as a chocolate tea pot.

BHX/FCO/BHX, a loco operated this route but it was cheaper to fly with Swiss, with quick connections in ZRH, 3 flights daily and a beer and a snack on each and every sector, likewise Swiss were cheaper to MXP than the loco to BGY.

BHX/DUS/BHX, no loco operated the route, Lufty can be reasonably priced and the one time Lufty were too expensive I routed via AMS to DUS with KLM.

BHX/KBP/BHX, no loco operates this route, often I would KLM it via AMS or Lufty it via DUS, 50 seater CRJ's all the way to Ukraine and back!

BHX/CDG/BHX, no loco operates the route, AF (CityJet) have some very good fares!

BHX/RIX/BHX, no loco operated the route, SAS via CPH and/or KLM via AMS served this purpose!

BHX/MNL/BHX, yes this must be a prime loco route, I must be living in the past because I'm of the impression that, optimumly, to fly this route I should think about KLM or Emirates but what do I know, I'm living in the past!

And just what is so "LOL" about MD87's? SAS are operating them , a nicely sized aircraft, and with functioning undercarriages unlike another aircraft type I could mention!

I stand by my words, "To hell with loco's"!

"Dash 8" Nakata77? Are you sure you're not afraid to leave the past?

[NorthSouth]

Expressflight:

SEN is a Code 3C aerodrome because its runway width is 37m. To attain Code 4 status it would need a runway width of 45m and this is impossible to achieve due to runway strip width requirements. CAP 168 states that for a Code 3C aerodrome 'the greater of TODA or ASDA can be be from 1,200m up to but not including 1,800m'.
Hence the declared limit of 1,799m for SEN's extended runway: nothing to do with RESA limitations

Thanks for that, interesting, and I don't disagree with you that any airfield with a TODA or ASDA of 1800 or more *ought* to be a Code 4, and then, according to CAP 168, *ought* to have a runway width of at least 45m, which then *ought* to mean that no airfield with a runway width <45m can have a TODA >1799. But how then do you explain the following:

Southampton TODA 02 1805m, TODA 20 1831m, runway width 37m
Carlisle TODA 25 1824m, runway width 30m
Lydd TODA 03 1979m, runway width 32m

NS

[Expressflight]

North South

I think I read somewhere that an allowance of 10% above the 1,799m figure could be allowed at the discretion of the CAA, which fits the Lydd case. Perhaps it applied only to aerodromes which had TODAs greater than 1,800m when the rule came into being, I really don't know.

I long since gave up trying to explain or understand some of the decisions made by the CAA over the years.

[TCAS FAN]

The + 10% methodology appears to be no longer in use. I've tried over the past few years to get the Aerodrome Standards Department, SRG to permit its adoption for an 1199 M (Code 2) runway with a considerably longer ASDA and TODA but have repeatedly received "No" from ASD. Their attitude has been that ICAO Annex 14 does not provide for it, so as its a Code 2 runway, 1199 metres is all you get unless you want to widen the runway to 30 metres and qualify for Code 3.

Any deviation from Annex 14 Standards would require the UK to file a "Difference", which UK policy now appears to dictate that this will not be done unless absolutely essential (to the CAA).

May be SOU and LYD have some form of "grandfather rights", may be for not much longer. Best of luck SEN, if you get it I'll be on the phone to ASD as soon as I see the AIP amendment.

[TCAS FAN]

The + 10% methodology appears to be no longer in use. I've tried over the past few years to get the Aerodrome Standards Department, SRG to permit its adoption for an 1199 M (Code 2) runway with a considerably longer ASDA and TODA but have repeatedly received "No" from ASD. Their attitude has been that ICAO Annex 14 does not provide for it, so as its a Code 2 runway, 1199 metres is all you get unless you want to widen the runway to 30 metres and qualify for Code 3.

Any deviation from Annex 14 Standards would require the UK to file a "Difference", which UK policy now appears to dictate that this will not be done unless absolutely essential (to the CAA).

May be SOU, LYD, Carlisle have some form of "grandfather rights", may be for not much longer. Best of luck SEN, if you get it I'll be on the phone to ASD as soon as I see the AIP amendment.

[student88]

EZY through SEN

Heads up to Southend spotters!

Tomorrow (14th December) 2 EZY A319s will be passing through SEN

1) G-EZDC STN-SEN DEP 1200 ARR 1245
2) G-EZAM SEN-STN DEP 1320 ARR 1405

Have fun!