SOUTHEND - 2
Join Date: Apr 2006
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EZY would never consider SEN unless they are hoping mad. If they do, it's good news for the likes of us (Ryanair) but i'm pretty certain there is more chance of Monica Lewinski running for president.
ryanair 1
The tone of your post makes me even more confident that EZY will be looking hard at SEN for 2012. At least there's no chance of your mob spoiling the party I'm very glad to say.
I flew with your 'airline' twice in the past couple of weeks - if only I had a decent choice to do otherwise from here I'd jump at it.
The tone of your post makes me even more confident that EZY will be looking hard at SEN for 2012. At least there's no chance of your mob spoiling the party I'm very glad to say.
I flew with your 'airline' twice in the past couple of weeks - if only I had a decent choice to do otherwise from here I'd jump at it.
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Personally I think that one of the MODS should consider deleting daz211 insulting reply.
There are a handful of very knowledgeable SEN followers in this section, that like everyone else, deserve some respect.
There are a handful of very knowledgeable SEN followers in this section, that like everyone else, deserve some respect.
Meanwhile back at the airport .......
Commercially I would offer a few comments. Firstly, about Olympic traffic. Do bear in mind that the Olympics are for two weeks. Making significant capital investments on the basis of traffic in this period is just inappropriate. You are OK if you are the Olympic Delivery Authority and can reach into public funds for whatever you want, and don't have to care whether it is wasted afterwards, but that doesn't apply to commercial investment.
Secondly, regarding the train service, it wil be 55 minutes to Liverpool Street, eight stops along the way, in a suburban-standard train which usually has many standing passengers in the morning approaching London, and leaving there in the evening. That's a long journey in such a train. It's not even the main railway from Southend to London (that goes to Fenchurch Street). Another 15 minutes is what it takes by train from London Euston to Birmingham Airport station, at the same frequency and in a proper long-distance train. Despite this, Birmingham airport has never made any headway at all in attracting passengers from Greater London.
Lastly Southend is in a poor geographical position, as it has no catchment area to the south or east, and because of inadequate access very little to the north as well. There is not a lot of commercial or industral activity in the town, which really functions as an extended commuter suburb for Greater London. The only way it got any traffic in times past was by handling overflow traffic from London, traffic which has now diverted for the business world to London City, and for low cost to Stansted.
This is why the once substantial traffic (well, in summer, it always fell right away in winter, and it was long, long ago) has been lost. Think Manston, in a very similar geographic position, they have had similar success, or lack of it, in attracting traffic.
Yes, it's OK for a jolly in my PA28, which gives a fine view of all the uninhabited Essex marshland that surrounds the town, and as a storage area for unwanted jets. But as a base for a significant commercial operation at adequate frequencies, I can't see where they will get the passengers from.
Commercially I would offer a few comments. Firstly, about Olympic traffic. Do bear in mind that the Olympics are for two weeks. Making significant capital investments on the basis of traffic in this period is just inappropriate. You are OK if you are the Olympic Delivery Authority and can reach into public funds for whatever you want, and don't have to care whether it is wasted afterwards, but that doesn't apply to commercial investment.
Secondly, regarding the train service, it wil be 55 minutes to Liverpool Street, eight stops along the way, in a suburban-standard train which usually has many standing passengers in the morning approaching London, and leaving there in the evening. That's a long journey in such a train. It's not even the main railway from Southend to London (that goes to Fenchurch Street). Another 15 minutes is what it takes by train from London Euston to Birmingham Airport station, at the same frequency and in a proper long-distance train. Despite this, Birmingham airport has never made any headway at all in attracting passengers from Greater London.
Lastly Southend is in a poor geographical position, as it has no catchment area to the south or east, and because of inadequate access very little to the north as well. There is not a lot of commercial or industral activity in the town, which really functions as an extended commuter suburb for Greater London. The only way it got any traffic in times past was by handling overflow traffic from London, traffic which has now diverted for the business world to London City, and for low cost to Stansted.
This is why the once substantial traffic (well, in summer, it always fell right away in winter, and it was long, long ago) has been lost. Think Manston, in a very similar geographic position, they have had similar success, or lack of it, in attracting traffic.
Yes, it's OK for a jolly in my PA28, which gives a fine view of all the uninhabited Essex marshland that surrounds the town, and as a storage area for unwanted jets. But as a base for a significant commercial operation at adequate frequencies, I can't see where they will get the passengers from.
WHBM
Regarding the Olympics, it's actually more like a 5 week period including the Paralympics but that's not really the point. The Olympic 'boost' is, I believe, seen more as the catalyst for airlines commencing services to/from SEN, particularly in the case of Continental operators. There would be no capital investment needed just to service the Games themselves, but it would give any new service a good start.
As far as the train service is concerned there is no prospect of SEN users not having seats to London and that prospect only exists for a very limited late afternoon period from London. They may encounter standing passengers en route, but I suspect that LTN users suffer likewise. The trains themselves are also likely to be of very similar standard to those serving STN and LTN. I don't see how the Euston to Birmingham International station comparison is valid, not least because you have to board another 'train' to BHX itself after your 70 minute journey from Euston. The Southend to Fenchurch Street line is complementary to that to Liverpool Street; there's no question of one or the orther being the "main railway" while that to Liverpool Street is marginally faster in fact.
SEN may not have a catchment to its East or South, but it has a very good one to its West and that from the North has much easier access nowadays with Chelmsford to SEN being a shorter drive than to STN. The total catchment is what counts surely. Its 'local' catchment (that giving a saving of 20 minutes in driving time from any other airport) is 608,000, while its equal distance catchment is a further 410,000. Its catchment for an equal train travel time from a mainline station is 1,583,000. Its Continental catchment for inbound traffic has to be added to this and that is virtually limitless and is an element often forgotten by critics of SEN.
The main reason that SEN lost its previous traffic levels of 700,000 p.a. is simply because the runway became too short for jet traffic and it was further shortened in 2003 when RESAs became mandatory. Any comparison with MSE once the SEN development plan is completed is way wide of the mark in my view.
One advantage that you don't mention is the reduced flight times from Western Europe which SEN will offer. An inbound from AMS or CGN is likely to arrive SEN much earlier than any departures from the same points to STN, LTN or LCY. Likewise, airport transit times will be speedier with 10 minutes looking possible from touchdown to station platform or car park with hand baggage, while the fastest I have done that at STN is 20 minutes. If an airline can offer its customers a quicker overall journey time into London by using SEN than does LTN or STN, then SEN comes into consideration. If it can also offer shorter flight times within that then it becomes an even more interesting proposition.
I'm not saying attracting airlines quickly will be easy, particularly in the current economic climate, but if the offering is right I believe they will succeed - not least because incoming airlines will be immune from the predations of RYR, which is not an insubstantial consideration in my view. Stobart's are the last people that one would label as being naive and I cannot recall any other UK airport where so much has been invested in such a short time with a runway extension, completely new terminal, new control tower and on-airport railway station. They at least must be convinced it will all produce substantial results.
Regarding the Olympics, it's actually more like a 5 week period including the Paralympics but that's not really the point. The Olympic 'boost' is, I believe, seen more as the catalyst for airlines commencing services to/from SEN, particularly in the case of Continental operators. There would be no capital investment needed just to service the Games themselves, but it would give any new service a good start.
As far as the train service is concerned there is no prospect of SEN users not having seats to London and that prospect only exists for a very limited late afternoon period from London. They may encounter standing passengers en route, but I suspect that LTN users suffer likewise. The trains themselves are also likely to be of very similar standard to those serving STN and LTN. I don't see how the Euston to Birmingham International station comparison is valid, not least because you have to board another 'train' to BHX itself after your 70 minute journey from Euston. The Southend to Fenchurch Street line is complementary to that to Liverpool Street; there's no question of one or the orther being the "main railway" while that to Liverpool Street is marginally faster in fact.
SEN may not have a catchment to its East or South, but it has a very good one to its West and that from the North has much easier access nowadays with Chelmsford to SEN being a shorter drive than to STN. The total catchment is what counts surely. Its 'local' catchment (that giving a saving of 20 minutes in driving time from any other airport) is 608,000, while its equal distance catchment is a further 410,000. Its catchment for an equal train travel time from a mainline station is 1,583,000. Its Continental catchment for inbound traffic has to be added to this and that is virtually limitless and is an element often forgotten by critics of SEN.
The main reason that SEN lost its previous traffic levels of 700,000 p.a. is simply because the runway became too short for jet traffic and it was further shortened in 2003 when RESAs became mandatory. Any comparison with MSE once the SEN development plan is completed is way wide of the mark in my view.
One advantage that you don't mention is the reduced flight times from Western Europe which SEN will offer. An inbound from AMS or CGN is likely to arrive SEN much earlier than any departures from the same points to STN, LTN or LCY. Likewise, airport transit times will be speedier with 10 minutes looking possible from touchdown to station platform or car park with hand baggage, while the fastest I have done that at STN is 20 minutes. If an airline can offer its customers a quicker overall journey time into London by using SEN than does LTN or STN, then SEN comes into consideration. If it can also offer shorter flight times within that then it becomes an even more interesting proposition.
I'm not saying attracting airlines quickly will be easy, particularly in the current economic climate, but if the offering is right I believe they will succeed - not least because incoming airlines will be immune from the predations of RYR, which is not an insubstantial consideration in my view. Stobart's are the last people that one would label as being naive and I cannot recall any other UK airport where so much has been invested in such a short time with a runway extension, completely new terminal, new control tower and on-airport railway station. They at least must be convinced it will all produce substantial results.
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Both last two posts are interesting prospects or not? I have grave concerns about the surrounding access which cannot be made any better than it is. The A127 is the pits as are road journeys into London or anywhere else if it involves the M25. For much of the rush hour the roads around SEN are gridlocked and then come the summer - when and if we get one day trippers make the situation worse.
Unlike SOU which I can see as a model for SEN, SOU had substantial business around it and quick travel using the M3, look how many years it took to get it viable/likewise LCY.
I have grave concerns that are repeated often here that at the end of this exercise the runway will still be to short to support Loco which it will need to grow. While/or if all this going, STN and LTN will not sit back if SEN starts to take business from them. I hope to be proved wrong but have grave doubts and I see no-one amongst the Stobbart group that has knowledge / experience of such a major detour from their core business.
Unlike SOU which I can see as a model for SEN, SOU had substantial business around it and quick travel using the M3, look how many years it took to get it viable/likewise LCY.
I have grave concerns that are repeated often here that at the end of this exercise the runway will still be to short to support Loco which it will need to grow. While/or if all this going, STN and LTN will not sit back if SEN starts to take business from them. I hope to be proved wrong but have grave doubts and I see no-one amongst the Stobbart group that has knowledge / experience of such a major detour from their core business.
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I DO think SEN could handle a limited sunspots programme, with some focus on those in Golden age, wither by a Palm Air type operation or a FLYBE/Easy operation, with a based aircraft or W pattern operation.
It could also sustain a weekly W operation to one or two ski resorts.
And maybe a twice daily to EDI,GLA or DUB on an ATR or Dash.
If that's what Stobart have in mind backed up by some biz-jet, and GA it might work. Is there an FBO like Harrods at Present -if not it needs one.
Most comments seem to be orientated around two extremes here - gloom and doom or seas of Orange- the latter is not imagineable.
It could also sustain a weekly W operation to one or two ski resorts.
And maybe a twice daily to EDI,GLA or DUB on an ATR or Dash.
If that's what Stobart have in mind backed up by some biz-jet, and GA it might work. Is there an FBO like Harrods at Present -if not it needs one.
Most comments seem to be orientated around two extremes here - gloom and doom or seas of Orange- the latter is not imagineable.
I agree with HZ123 regarding road access, particularly during the rush hour periods, but the new link road from the A127 will help.
What isn't in the public domain is the reaction they have had from prospective airlines, which I understand has been extremely positive. Perhaps 22/04 should add some Continental departure points to his list of potential routes.
I know that I'm a passionate supporter of SEN so my glasses might be slightly rose-tinted, but I'm also by nature something of a pessimist and yet I really believe this will work. A re-developed SEN will always be something of a 'niche' operation with runway length always coming into the equation, but I believe it's a big enough niche to generate the planned 2 mppa. As some will know, I've been close to this expansion project for 18 months so perhaps what I've learned as a result gives some cause for optimism.
What isn't in the public domain is the reaction they have had from prospective airlines, which I understand has been extremely positive. Perhaps 22/04 should add some Continental departure points to his list of potential routes.
I know that I'm a passionate supporter of SEN so my glasses might be slightly rose-tinted, but I'm also by nature something of a pessimist and yet I really believe this will work. A re-developed SEN will always be something of a 'niche' operation with runway length always coming into the equation, but I believe it's a big enough niche to generate the planned 2 mppa. As some will know, I've been close to this expansion project for 18 months so perhaps what I've learned as a result gives some cause for optimism.
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Local Business
Dear HZ123
One thing is for sure and that is Southend has substantially more aviation related business on site than Southampton. Last time I was at SOU it had one FBO and one engineering firm. SEN may not have an independant FBO but I am sure it will come as it is on the published plans. Also we 6+ engineering companies and numerous other aviation companies, myself included.
As for the surrounding areas your are correct about the geographical limitations pertaining to catchment area and access. The morning commute for me from the east side of town is not that bad, but one accident on either the A13 or A127 can have serious knock on effects. Not as bad as the M25 though.
As for local enterprise supporting the growth of the airport, I think we have substantial in the A13/127 corridors, especially with the growth of the Thames Gateway Port, which combined with SEN airport expansion will generate new business in the area.
Regards Phil
One thing is for sure and that is Southend has substantially more aviation related business on site than Southampton. Last time I was at SOU it had one FBO and one engineering firm. SEN may not have an independant FBO but I am sure it will come as it is on the published plans. Also we 6+ engineering companies and numerous other aviation companies, myself included.
As for the surrounding areas your are correct about the geographical limitations pertaining to catchment area and access. The morning commute for me from the east side of town is not that bad, but one accident on either the A13 or A127 can have serious knock on effects. Not as bad as the M25 though.
As for local enterprise supporting the growth of the airport, I think we have substantial in the A13/127 corridors, especially with the growth of the Thames Gateway Port, which combined with SEN airport expansion will generate new business in the area.
Regards Phil
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London Thames Estuary Airport
What implications will development & growth at Southend have on the possible new London airport in the Thames Estuary?
I doubt they would ever allow two airports in such close proximity to operate and thats not to mention the overlapping catchments.
I doubt they would ever allow two airports in such close proximity to operate and thats not to mention the overlapping catchments.
There was an interesting story in the Financial Times earlier this week in which they interviewed Andrew Tinkler at SEN. He spoke of his aim in seeking a European airline partner to establish a network of European scheduled services from SEN with the aircraft carrying Stobart colours. Whether he has in mind an ACMI operation with Stobarts doing the sales and marketing under the carrier's AOC, or the carrier operating the services in their own name with just the aircraft in Stobart livery isn't stated.
There is also a slide show of aerial stills alongside the story which show progress on the rail station and control tower etc., taken at the time of the FT's visit to SEN. You need to register at ft.com to read the story, but that is free of charge and simple to do.
There is also a slide show of aerial stills alongside the story which show progress on the rail station and control tower etc., taken at the time of the FT's visit to SEN. You need to register at ft.com to read the story, but that is free of charge and simple to do.
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Low flying north of SEN
Hi
Not sure if this is the right forum but.....can anyone assist with the same low flying passenger/cargo (?) plane which frequently, ie hourly on some days, can be seen heading from the direction of SEN over towards Rayleigh then Basildon and onwards? Re-appears during the day. Convinced I am not imagining it.
Thanks
Not sure if this is the right forum but.....can anyone assist with the same low flying passenger/cargo (?) plane which frequently, ie hourly on some days, can be seen heading from the direction of SEN over towards Rayleigh then Basildon and onwards? Re-appears during the day. Convinced I am not imagining it.
Thanks
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Maybe viable on point-point Euro-haul
' “Eighty-five per cent of freight is usually carried on a passenger plane. By putting freight under the seats we can offer that service and help operators fill freight space. It’s better coming under seats than separate planes. '
Can't see it work on a 20 min turn LoCo................
better to stick to freighters for freight ex SEN IMHO, worked very well in the 80's
Bored
Can't see it work on a 20 min turn LoCo................
better to stick to freighters for freight ex SEN IMHO, worked very well in the 80's
Bored