Weather, BAA, LHR, Xmas, BBC, Fog, BA, etc. Rants (merged)
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Weather, BAA, LHR, Xmas, BBC, Fog, BA, etc. Rants (merged)
According to the news BA is cancelling all domestic services today @ LHR.I find this bewildering as the last actual indicates 100'/600m which is of course well in excess of A319/B757 cat3B minima;I smelleth more BA/LHR pre Christmas chaos redolent of cock-up/mismanagement from the world's favourite -Merry Christmas
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According to the news BA is cancelling all domestic services today @ LHR.I find this bewildering as the last actual indicates 100'/600m which is of course well in excess of A319/B757 cat3B minima;I smelleth more BA/LHR pre Christmas chaos redolent of cock-up/mismanagement from the world's favourite -Merry Christmas
Very easy to tilt at BA management (with which I have no connection) but the truth is much more banal: flow rates reduced at Heathrow so somethings got to give and the company have decided to sacrifice domestic services. I understand that quite a few other operators have been forced to take similar action. I operated into LHR this morning and we held for an hour at LAM before landing in 400 m off a CAT 3B approach. Obviously flow rates aren't a problem if you operate into provincial airfields! 
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The slots into Gatwick this morning were in excess of two hours so I have at a guess similar slots must have been in force a Heathrow as well.
At least the out bound punters can see what was causing the delays but when you are an inbound punter two hundered miles down the round in clear blue sunshine the travelling public do not understand the delay.
It looks like the next couple of days will be a similar start each morning.
At least the out bound punters can see what was causing the delays but when you are an inbound punter two hundered miles down the round in clear blue sunshine the travelling public do not understand the delay.
It looks like the next couple of days will be a similar start each morning.
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The B757 nighstop from ARN which should leave at 0910, finally departed for LHR at 1700, awaiting LHR slot.
BA has run out of aircraft because of the freezing fog.
What LHR needs is a system of landing CAT3 aircraft at normal flow rates, and an ILS is not the answer.
Synthetic vision, MLS, GPS. One day one of these will have taken over, but up to then Cat3 means long delays.
BA has run out of aircraft because of the freezing fog.
What LHR needs is a system of landing CAT3 aircraft at normal flow rates, and an ILS is not the answer.
Synthetic vision, MLS, GPS. One day one of these will have taken over, but up to then Cat3 means long delays.
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I think what the OP is getting at is why BA always abandons its entire domestic flying programme during irregular ops while other airlines manage between a 50% and 90% service. Seems all too convenient given the other operational problems faced by staffing issues right now (eg at outstations where redundancy looms).
Midland has managed to operate all but two flights to EDI so far today
Midland has managed to operate all but two flights to EDI so far today
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According to the news BA is canceling all domestic services today @ LHR.I find this bewildering as the last actual indicates 100'/600m which is of course well in excess of A319/B757 cat3B minima;I smelleth more BA/LHR pre Christmas chaos redolent of cock-up/mismanagement from the world's favourite -Merry Christmas
Low visibility procedures reduce landing rates by about 25%, therefore the impact at LHR where we land 42-44 aircraft per hour is significant. The fact that BA has the majority of its operations based there means that it is therefore disproportionately effected.
The reason for the reduced rate despite CAT3 aircraft is basically complexity on the ground. Aircraft landing in fog tend to occupy the runway longer as the flight crew get their bearings and identify their runway exits in reduced visibility. Flight crew also tend to taxi slower in low visibility conditions for safety reasons. Air Traffic cannot issue landing clearance to the next aircraft until the preceeding aircraft has passed the CAT3 holding position. This position is further from the runway than the normal point where the following aircraft can normally be cleared to land. This is all being done in complete blindness in the control tower, with controllers completely reliant on Surface Movement Radar (where fitted).
Whilst not an airline employee I assume BA cancel shorthaul flights in order to prioritise what slots they have left, for higher pax number medium/long haul flights.
You smelleth nothing but your own S***!
Regards- Air Trafficer
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my lack of experience includes 30 years ops at the sharp end including cat 3A/B Airbus/Boeing(mainly command/training) and I should have realised that inevitably given the usual knee jerk over reaction prevalent on pprune that the insults would start flying.I am very aware of lo vis procedures,spacing,slow taxying etc.The intention of the post was to highlight the bizarre decision to cancel all domestic services through LHR -has anyone operated/paxed through LHR/LGW recently?-virtual meltdown has been my experience.And (supposed) air trafficer rather than fling insults why don't you go back to your dark room and shove it.
over and out
over and out
It's as much to do with the options/cost of the disruption which would be far worse for long-haul. Short-haul pax can easily be transferred to bmi or onto an LGW flight whilst cancelling a daily BKK or SIN flight would be a lot more problematic.
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"BA/LHR pre Christmas chaos redolent of cock-up/mismanagement" -Olster
"over reaction prevalent on pprune that the insults would start flying" -Olster
"Pot-Kettle-Black" springs to mind.
Regards DTY/CLN
30 years UK Air Traffic Controller
"over reaction prevalent on pprune that the insults would start flying" -Olster
"Pot-Kettle-Black" springs to mind.
Regards DTY/CLN
30 years UK Air Traffic Controller
Entirely agree - this seems to be BA's standard response to this sort of disruption. If you're paying £300 or 400 to get you home to NCL, EDI, GLA, surely you should be able to expect BA to make a bit more of an effort.
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BA knocks the shorthaul programme to keep the longhaul programme going. It is much easier to redistribute domestic pax, crew and aircraft and get them back on schedule than it is the WW fleet. That is why it is always the shorthaul programme that gets hit.
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If you're paying £300 or 400 to get you home to NCL, EDI, GLA, surely you should be able to expect BA to make a bit more of an effort.
Depending on the type of ticket purchased, BA will hotac you, and re-book you on the next available flight. Which is the best you can expect....mayby perhaps you should book Easy next time? I wonder if they will hotac you? somehow I doubt it.
I can't believe that any of you believe that much more could be done...this whinging comes across as very very petty minded, without any real appreciation of the logistics involved.
(I say this as a non employee of BA, but as someone that has a much better idea of the problems caused when a base is weather restricted)
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DTYCLN -my last post on this -I originally started this post because I do feel that it is a bizarre decision to cancel all domestic services(why not CDG/AMS/FRA) and as one who lives in the regions I can emphasise very much with the poor sods who will be spectacularly inconvenienced by this so close to Christmas(been there).I cannot for the life of me feel that it is insulting to imply that BA or God forbid the BAA could possibly mismanage a deteriorating weather scenario(or anything).I would not ever imply that ATC @ LHR/LATCC were in anyway complicit in this.If you are of the same vintage as me I do believe that a certain level of mutual respect was traditional between pilots/ATC.Finally,as probably you and I have spoken frequently on the radio including cat 3b ops @LHR it is disappointing to think that you would feel it appropriate to call me or anyone ignorant of all things aeronautical and to imply I smell of **** which call me a bluff old traditionalist I interpreted as insulting(unsurprisingly).If you've had a tough day @LHR go and have a drink.
rgds
rgds
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Could also have something to do with short haul rostering agreements and the minimum turnaround times required by cabin crew in particular at LHR which means that the aircraft, pilots and cabin crew are normally rostered separately, so when inbound flights are disrupted it is very difficult to get all 3 components together for the outbound again. Pilots may be going out again on one flight and cabin crew on another and neither is often staying with the aircraft. Hence BA shorthaul is much worse affected than any other airline on days of disruption at LHR and domestics in particular end up getting cannibalised to protect international, the theory being that there is alternative transport, even if only by rail or even coach. At this time of year, with everything that moves being pretty well fully booked , several days of disruption on the trot takes a long time to unravel as passengers off cancelled flights go to the back of the queue for new bookings.To do otherwise would result in complete chaos. The deadline of Christmas makes the whole thing worse, and unlike normal periods of disruption there are few willing to just delay their travel plans. The next few days could be very difficult , with some high emotions.
I'm looking at this from the customers point of view, and it looks like BA take the easy option and just shut down domestic operations rather than make the effort and try to offer some sort of service to those who pay the wages.
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How about moving whatever's left of the long haul fleet across to LGW, and starting operating B744's or B772's on the domestic routes from there? Move the pax across to LGW on coaches and soon you'll have them all out of your way.
Do-able or not?
Do-able or not?
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Er, if they have to cancel something, then surely it makes sense to cancel domestic routes where there is the alternative of taking the train??
Particularly as the train will get there quicker anyway, once you've added the delays to the normal check-in times and security nonsense and travel-to-the-airport time.
So this sounds like a perfectly sensible way to run a business - piss off as few punters as possible as little as possible. Duh
Particularly as the train will get there quicker anyway, once you've added the delays to the normal check-in times and security nonsense and travel-to-the-airport time.
So this sounds like a perfectly sensible way to run a business - piss off as few punters as possible as little as possible. Duh