Weather, BAA, LHR, Xmas, BBC, Fog, BA, etc. Rants (merged)

[747-436]

Hopefully the fact that BA have scrapped their entire domestic schedule for Thursday might mean that slot delays in to LHR for the other operators will be less than the average 4 hours recieved today!

Also surpirised to hear while at work there are minimal startup delays at LHR , the last time I did a shift while there was fog all day at LHR there were 2 1/2 hour startup delays at about 1800. I imagine that the cancelations and also huge inbound slot delays have helped reduce the burden on LHR somewhat!!

BA have done the right thing by knocking it on the head now rather than attempting to run the domestic schedule and have crews and aircraft in the wrong place for longer than needed. Hopefully when it clears the back log won't be too much!

[LYKA]

LHR not the only place have problems either!

Check out DEN

TAF AMD KDEN 202050Z 202118 34022G38KT 1/4SM +SN BLSN FZFG VV002
FM0400 35020G28KT 1/2SM SN BLSN FZFG VV003 FM0800 34015G22KT 3/4SM
-SN BLSN OVC005 FM1500 35012G18KT 1SM -SN BR OVC008=

KDEN 202131Z 34028G34KT 1/4SM R35L/1400V1800FT +SN BLSN FZFG VV002
M04/M06 A2984 RMK AO2 P0000 $=
KDEN 202112Z 35032G36KT 1/8SM R35L/0800V1400FT +SN BLSN FZFG VV001
M04/M06 A2983 RMK AO2 TWR VIS 1/4 P0000 $=
KDEN 202104Z 35030G37KT 1/16SM R35L/1000V1400FT +SN BLSN FZFG VV001
M04/M06 A2983 RMK AO2 TWR VIS 1/4 LTG DSNT NW P0000 $=
KDEN 202053Z 34030KT 1/4SM R35L/1000V1600FT +SN BLSN FZFG VV002
M04/M06 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP125 SNINCR 1/6 P0002 60005 T10441056 55014
$=
KDEN 202035Z 36026G48KT 1/4SM R35L/1400V1800FT +SN BLSN FZFG VV002
M04/M06 A2982 RMK AO2 PK WND 35048/2033 P0001 $=
KDEN 202008Z 36027G33KT 1/4SM R35L/1000V1800FT +SN BLSN FZFG VV003
M04/M05 A2981 RMK AO2 PK WND 35033/2004 SFC VIS 1/2 P0000 $=
KDEN 201956Z 36027G35KT 1/8SM R35L/0800V2200FT +SN BLSN FZFG VV001
M04/M05 A2982 RMK AO2 PK WND 36032/1956 TWR VIS 1/4 P0000 $=
KDEN 201953Z 36030G35KT 1/4SM R35L/1400V2200FT SN BLSN FZFG VV002
M04/M06 A2982 RMK AO2 PK WND 36035/1952 SLP122 P0001 T10391056 $=

[Dryce]

Originally Posted by DtyCln

I'd take the domestic cancellation every time. Just about to travel back home for Christmas as I do every December, flight cancelled, tough but other options open to me. Car, train ferry etc. Were I going to New York what options have I got? Swim? Would I rather BA cancelled their entire domestic operation every time, absolutely. And I write as a traveller who previously lived in, and regularly returns to Ulster and is an Exec Club member!

I tend to differ. Family and friends generally avoid transiting through LHR because the airport is a pigsty and BA trash their domestic service as their first contingency. Today just confirms the good sense of this policy.

In days gone by you always felt that BA would use a larger aircraft and consolidate several flights so you'd get home late but you'd get home.

If they had declared that they were doing something like this today then they would have some kudos and gain some customer confidence. It would have demonstrated resilience as opposed to fragility.

[Stoic]

First, I declare an interest. I retired from BA a few years ago after flying BA’s VC10s, then B747s, for many years.

On a similar day to today, several years ago, I recall that I arrived over the UK in a 747 Classic from SEA to find LHR, LGW, STN etc. fogged out with un-forecast fog with 2 hours-plus holding delays for LHR. So we popped into MAN for fuel. [We were so keen to get our pax to LHR that I almost cocked up by putting too much fuel on (so exceeding max landing weight), but was saved by nothing more than pure luck]. We asked BA MAN staff to get us off to LHR asap. They responded: “Wait your turn” - 3 or 4 already delayed MAN-LHR shuttles. We said; “Hang on. If we don’t get away by whatever time, we shall run out of hours and we will have 340 SEA pax stuck in MAN.” BA MAN immediately understood our problem, we went to the top of the priority list, further delaying the short-haul shuttles and set off for LHR as soon as CAT 3 was anticipated so we could land. We landed with no delay in “real” CAT 3 at LHR.

I offer this to show that organising an airline operation at LHR during fog is not an easy matter. Whether or not it is the beloved “pea-souper” of a 1950s childhood is immaterial. Reduced landing/take-off rate due fog will disrupt all major airline operations, when an airport is operating to capacity.

In my opinion giving early warning of cancellation of tomorrow’s domestic services is eminently sensible. Passengers have early warning to make alternative arrangements.

Being aviation, sod’s law will ensure that tomorrow is fog-free.

Of course you can always try some of the low-cost operators when there is disruption.

Happy Christmas to All

Stoic

[747-436]

I am seeing on the news that they are saying it is too dangerous to land for shorthaul aircraft but Longhaul aircraft have more modern equipment so can land in poorer conditions!

Wish the media would use the real reason which is the drastic cut in the flow rate and the subsequent slot delays this causes for European traffic, which means everything runs very late and aircraft and crews are in the wrong place.

Long haulers come from outside of Eurocontrol airspace so no inbound slot delays = less disruption!

Guess the real explanation doesn't make as good a story for the press!

[BEagle]

Fingers crossed that my policy of never using ba and avoiding LHR like the plague will pay off tomorrow as I try to get back to the UK to a regional airport with another carrier.

Interesting that ba should be so badly affected by fog. Historians may correct me, but I seem to recall that, forty years ago, it was a BEA Trident which made the first commercial landing at LHR in 50m of fog when no other aircraft could land?

Come a long way since then, haven't you Nigel?

[747-436]

It is not the inability to land in the fog that is affecting BA, it is the drop in the flow rate and subsequent inbound delays that are causing the cancelations!!!!!

[BEagle]

Yes, sorry - my point was that once upon a time it was only the pioneering BEA Trident which could keep going - whereas now ba short haul domestic has ground to a halt.

For whatever reason, progress that ain't!

"Eight-Thirty Trident!"

Airport movements rates, airline manning levels and crew duty limits have all played a part in this current situation. Operating too close to the surge margin, as it were.

[Leezyjet]

I think that what the original poster was getting at is that other airlines are able to operate their s/haul flights albeit by combining flights and more than likely with heavy delays, but at least they try and maintain some sort of operation rather than just cancelling outright as BA seemed to have done.

[woodpecker]

Bealine 456 are you Cat3?

Affirmative!

Cleared to start!



Those were the days, "Prime Land" and all that the Trident had to offer.

[Stoic]

Beagle: Surely the point is that when an airport is used to capacity, and the movement rate is degraded due weather, delays are inevitable.

When the Wx-affected airport is your main base, as LHR is for BA, the disruption has to be managed as well as possible. What makes you think that any other airline would manage the LHR disruptions better than BA if it were their main base?

Regards

Stoic (long-retired BA)

[smith]

They have cancelled all domestic services and Paris and Brussels.

The clue is there, they can get most of the pax home via Train(UK) and Eurostar (Paris and Brussels) at least in the same day.

Try getting someone to Warsaw for example via boat, train or automobile etc and it will be far more trouble.

They are trying to reduce disruption to a minimum, so us brits will have to take the train but at least we'll get home on the same night. Good policy as AFAICS.

[mocoman]

Hopefully the fact that BA have scrapped their entire domestic schedule for Thursday might mean that slot delays in to LHR for the other operators will be less than the average 4 hours recieved today!

Is that not the major part of the reason that BA have cancelled Thursday?

I would hope so; weather is marginal and they know it. Why risk long/medium-haul delays by catering for their domestic ops. Heathrow deals in transit passengers as much as end-point traffic; Long-Haul takes priority..

Traffic on the ground can be massaged; traffic in the air is a given.

[ajamieson]

Originally Posted by Stoic

What makes you think that any other airline would manage the LHR disruptions better than BA if it were their main base?

Possibly the fact that LHR-based Midland has. Cancellations, yes...but they were still flying tonight.

[sat1]

hey gertrude with common sense in abundance(as you clearly have) what are you doing in this business???

[Dryce]

Originally Posted by mocoman

Heathrow deals in transit passengers as much as end-point traffic; Long-Haul takes priority..
Traffic on the ground can be massaged; traffic in the air is a given.

Not much use transiting through LHR if your inbound or outbound
domestic has been scratched.

[mocoman]

Point being that International Transit is a major part of BAA, oops BA.. , business and that it is far more worthwhile sacrificing UK Domestic to Euro-Worldwide or Transit customers...

Aircraft will continue to arrive and depart; only the rate will decrease and domestic/short-haul will take second-place.

Remember that there is no landing or departure block; purely a lowered arrival and departure rate due to LVP's.

[PAXboy]

Well, here I go again: I certainly agree with stoic

... when an airport is used to capacity ...

One of the problems that we have in the UK is that almost all organisations/companies/institutions/government departments now plan to operate at capacity with no reserve.

One can understand why: It is cheaper. The accountants have proved to the boards/shareholders/owners that the occasional problem like four days of fog, can be dealt with in three ways.

1. Everyone provides extra capacity - wider motorways or ALL aircraft having the latest autoland gizmo.
2. The big boys provide extra capacity but gain no benefit because the little boys won't pay. So there is no benefit from paying for the extra capacity.
3. No one pasys for extra capacity and so everyone 'gains'. When the fog hits the fan just bunker down and pay compensation - it will be cheaper than trying to fit MLS all round AND to get the rest of the EGLL users to do it.

Of course, HMG (via CAA) could specify MLS for all but everyone loves 'light touch' regulation because you need less regulators being paid by the Gov and you can 'sell' the idea that we are keen to let comemrcial companies 'do what they do best'. What they do best is make money for their shareholders and for that - don't bother to make MLS compulsory.

EGLL was out of capacity years and years ago and we are now building T5. Even the new short runway (Ten years from now?? Probably more like 15) will make no differance because no one will stop booking yet more flights into slots which mainly exist on paper. The time and money wasted in the stacks really is disgraceful. But the Gov ar lucky that that price is paid indivudally by each pax and the carriers and thus back to the pax, of course. If the sum of money were put in one place it would be very large.

I am not in favour of nationalised airlines but I am in favour of the main airports not being owned by a company (BAA, not their owners) that specialises in selling duty free and hamburgers.

[clicker]

While the main conversations have been around Heathrow, has everyone taken into account the WX at other airports?

If you only have a problem at one end of all your sectors it maybe worth it to keep running but what if both ends have problems as appears was the case yesterday.

I myself agree with many other posters. Better to be able to use coaches, trains etc than SFA

[BMEDbus]

Yes Fog does reduce the landing rate at LHR. But rumour has it this has come as a blessing to BA as the baggage handlers are on a go slow due to new working conditions. The union reps where escorted out of the compass center a few days ago.

Willie must have some powerful friends in the heavens. " BA STRIKE CHAOS" doesn't look good on the sun any more!