MANCHESTER - 2

[Curious Pax]

Originally Posted by Railgun

But a full aircraft does not always mean the route makes a lot of money .

You aren't seriously suggesting that Emirates introduced a second service as a charitable gesture are you? Fact of the matter is that BA's overheads are much higher than many of the Middle and Far Eastern long haul carriers (certainly in the way they calculate the way costs are distributed around the company) and therefore the revenue that they need to generate on a particular flight to make it profitable is likely to be higher than say Emirates or Qatar.

BA's problem was compounded by the fact that their business class seats were much more likely to be filled by travellers on a point-to-point itinerary, rather than flying from MAN via places such as AMS or FRA onwards.

I often return to the example of Lufthansa - years ago they seemed to treat Munich in a similar way to how BA treat Manchester. However in recent times they have changed it into a significant long haul hub in its own right, with the following on today's departure board, mainly with A340s: Newark, LAX, Chicago, Boston, Charlotte, Washington, JFK, Tokyo, San Francisco, Beijing, Tehran, Delhi, Shanghai, Hong Kong, plus a much wider range of feeder flights from around Europe. Interestingly their mix of foreign airlines is very similar to MAN - several US carriers, Emirates, Qatar and Etihad from the Middle East, etc, plus the mix of charter flights.

However in pax numbers Munich are ahead - 15.69 million in 1996, 23.13 in 2000, a drop back in 2001-2 like everywhere else, up to 28.62 million in 2005. In comparison, Manchester had 22.4 million in 2005 up from 14.65 million in 2005 - the difference in growth over the period where Lufthansa ramped things up is stark.

My take, although there are many others here far more qualified to comment, is that Lufthansa are succeeding at Munich for 3 main reasons - they have built a large number of feeder routes up with CRJs (50 and 70 seats), which have then progressed to larger aircraft allowing the smaller ones to be used on new destinations. These feeder routes have been used to build a significant long haul portfolio to the extent that they have got into a virtuous circle - growing short haul feeding into growing long haul. The second reason is that they have used their Star Alliance partners to build the range of services. This is in stark contrast to the way in which BA have used their One World partners at Manchester - if rumour is to be believed they have been more interested in getting them out of the way so as to allow more feed into Heathrow. Thirdly, Germany is a lot less focussed on one city generally, compared to the London focus in the UK.

Whether things have now gone too far for BA ever to consider trying the Munich model at MAN is debatable - I would say probably. It would certainly take several years patience and a large investment to turn things round, and BA (like many UK companies these days) seems to focussed on short term gain to ever consider such a plan.

[Porky Speedpig]

BA and Manchester

I need to try and add some balance to this debate following Railgun's assertion. As a Mancunian who has worked at MAN, LHR and LGW and a regular traveller through all 3 airports I do feel qualified to comment...
Even prior to T5, with the exception of Pier 3 the terminal facilities offered at LHR to all BA passengers range from very good to excellent - how long since you have been airside in LHR T1 International? The Premium lounges have had huge investment and are unrecognisable from previous years. LGW NT is now almost 20 years old but still looks fresher, more spacious and more appealing than any of the MAN terminals including T3 which is much newer.
You say that BA prefers to fly its passengers through LHR - this Sunday it offers a total capacity of 965 seats, effectively unchanged since the days of 10 x 99 seat BAC1-11s 25 years or more ago when there was also a full range of European 2 class services so I do not buy the "diversion over London" argument. Finally consider which of the airlines serving MAN makes the most money for its owners (which includes me!). If that is its business judgement, it is fine by me (and them!).

[Railgun]

So would you rather fly BA via LHR to get to AMS or take a direct KLM flight?

[Porky Speedpig]

Railgun, just tried it on BA website - Nonstop flights offered first, connect over LHR not even on the front screen.

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Fri 19 May 2006 from Manchester to John F Kennedy (New York)
Price Time Airport Flight Operated By
£175 10:00 Manchester John F Kennedy (New York) BA1503 BritishAirways

[Railgun]

Porky Speedpig

That comes as a shock to be honest and i take back my incorrect comments on it.

[ManchesterMan]

Railgun.....

So why would you go double-daily
If you couldnt get the yield??????

Earth to Planet Railgun come-in....


MM

[Railgun]

ManchesterMan

Because if BA sold MAN-JFK more for throught traffic they could go double daily.

Search on BA.com for flights to JFK from EDI, GLA, ABZ even the IOM the first fair on the IOM-JFK return is one trying to get you to return to LHR then go to LTN for your IOM flight!

[spannersatcx]

You aren't seriously suggesting that Emirates introduced a second service as a charitable gesture are you?

Airlines do, when CX introduced the 3rd daily flt to LHR, the airline was quite happy to make a loss on it as it was deemed more marketable/presdigious or whatever to have 3 daily flts to LHR than 2. It is now the case with the 4th flt, quite happy to make a loss etc etc.

I guess they must be happy because they are certainly making a loss on it, that's for sure.(must be where my profit share went)

Far East and other LH carriers won't fly to MAN because their pax want to fly to London, not a regional airport

The last time I flew home from HKG I would guess that at least 75% of the pax on the LHR-MAN flt had just got off the CX flt (and it happens more often than not). When CX had a pax flt at Man, a lot went out via LHR and back in to MAN, this was due to the poor slot time that CX insisted on out of MAN.

Unfortunately with airlines like CX they only see the UK as London and nothing more, as I believe the largest Chineese community in the UK is Manchester region you'd think they (CX) would make more of a go of it and not just fly to London!

We live in hope I guess.

[Mr A Tis]

Yes, I flew on the 3rd daily CX service from HKG-LHR, not long after it was introduced. Every pax had 3 seats & loads more to spare. In fact most of the pax were MAN/AMS bound as a late departure out of SYD caused us to miss our (then) direct AMS/MAN flt. In fact without the MAN pax on board the LHR flt, the crew would have outnumbered the passengers.

[Vuelo]

AA @ MAN

From the rumours I have heard, AA are looking at starting Manchester to Dallas three times a week and Manchester to Los Angeles three times a week.

Does anyone know anymore? They seem to be up to something as they are recruitng more ground staff.

[spanishflea]

Would make a lot of sense. A true west coast link has been missing for ages as everyone is too aware, and the connections offered through Dallas are nothing short of immense.

[toledoashley]

EZY

On the easyJet front - there are some routes that they could operate from current bases. Namely Basle, Berlin and Milan. Could also open new markets namely Morocco/Croatia/Baltics and maybe the Italian Islands in the Summer (Sicily/Sardinia). - Just a thought!

[peakp]

Air Taxes at Manchester

Anybody know why airlines charge different tax rates out of MAN.

Example:-
Man - PMI Sunday 2 July
BMIBABY £13.95
Jet2 £16.00
Monarch £25.03

LPL - Pmi Same date
E.J. £5.00
As every passenger has to pay the goverment £5.0 to fly,do liverpool airport
not charge E.J. for using the airport,or are there taxes hidden in the air fare.
In reply to TOLEDOASHLEY, note BA fly to Berlin, and BA & Alitalia fly to Milan

Regards PeakP

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

Thomsonfly are due to start scheduled flights to Marakesh this winter ex Manchester and GB Airways I think start at end of October

Whilst I am on can anybody give a reason as to why the Bangladesh now operates via Heathow and not on to New York as I am hearing several different stories

G-I-B

[spanishflea]

Originally Posted by peakp

Anybody know why airlines charge different tax rates out of MAN.
Example:-
Man - PMI Sunday 2 July
BMIBABY £13.95
Jet2 £16.00
Monarch £25.03
LPL - Pmi Same date
E.J. £5.00
As every passenger has to pay the goverment £5.0 to fly,do liverpool airport
not charge E.J. for using the airport,or are there taxes hidden in the air fare.
In reply to TOLEDOASHLEY, note BA fly to Berlin, and BA & Alitalia fly to Milan
Regards PeakP

"Taxes and Charges" emphasis on the charges bit. Airlines can throw pretty much anything they like in there.

[peakp]

Bangladesh Flights

To G.I.B.

FAA refused bangladash permission to fly from Man due to security issue.
Flights had to go via Brussels. May return in June to Man.
This is only what I heard.

[toledoashley]

Theres nothing wrong with competition

[peakp]

toledoashley

I agree, but tell that to BA. Time to go and watch the cup final

[toledoashley]

There is no future for BA @ MAN

[Railgun]

toledoashley

There is no future for BA anywhere in the UK but London Heathrow come 2008.