Loganair
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bit of a narrow view don't you think virginblue?
Why use a Q400 at all when a franchise would allow you to use smaller 30 seaters on routes that are not viable for the current 70 seater in use? So Loganair's aircraft are a bunch of knackered 30 seaters are they? Are you for real? Have you seen how many of Eastern's flights go tech everyday? Bear in mind that the Saab 2000 and the 340 finished production at exactly the same time. That makes them the same age with the same problems. I've flown Boeings that go tech just as often (Also the same age!). That's the problem with high cycle, short sector networks. And do you really think that all Loganair do is Kirkwall, Benbecula & Sumburgh?! Going to be an interesting year methinks!
Why use a Q400 at all when a franchise would allow you to use smaller 30 seaters on routes that are not viable for the current 70 seater in use? So Loganair's aircraft are a bunch of knackered 30 seaters are they? Are you for real? Have you seen how many of Eastern's flights go tech everyday? Bear in mind that the Saab 2000 and the 340 finished production at exactly the same time. That makes them the same age with the same problems. I've flown Boeings that go tech just as often (Also the same age!). That's the problem with high cycle, short sector networks. And do you really think that all Loganair do is Kirkwall, Benbecula & Sumburgh?! Going to be an interesting year methinks!
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: East Yorkshire
Posts: 453
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
seven fifty seven
I beg to differ on the Eastern tech front, Just look at the figures at the majority of Eastern destinations and you will find that Eastern are the most punctual.
I beg to differ on the Eastern tech front, Just look at the figures at the majority of Eastern destinations and you will find that Eastern are the most punctual.
Fit like min?
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ...
Posts: 2,126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With the Bomber on this one - not aware of widespread T3 tech problems, whatever other issues they may have (if you believe what is being written elsewhere!! 
)
Will be interesting to see if anything transpires on the LOG/BEE front though.
)Will be interesting to see if anything transpires on the LOG/BEE front though.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was not having a go at Loganair's fleet but merely highlighting the fact that Flybe is totally focused on the 78seat Q400 which is large enough to let Flybe play in the LCC league and not too large to get into the line of fire of the big boys (with a few larger E195s added to the fleet). I do not think that Flybe would consider operating anything smaller than the Q400 again given their low-cost-model (which was the reason why I mentioned thinner routes such as GLA-BEB or KOI-LSI - if you think about a possible fleet you need to look at the lower end because if there is not suitable aircraft to serve such routes, the routes would need to be axed).
That said, indeed the only option would be a franchise operation. However, what would be the purpose of a franchise from Loganair's point of view? It would cost Loganair a ton of money because that is the whole concept of franchising. What would Loganair gain? Other than a brand that is not particularly well recognized in the Highlands and Islands - in contrast to British Airways - and does not offer interlining, through-check-in, a useful FFP, free luggage, pay-for-food etc. etc. (and Flybe could not allow Loganair to do things differently in order to avoid dilution of its own brand).
Or maybe an outright purchase with Loganair remaining independent under its own brand as a subsidiary? Why would Flybe be interested in that? I have no idea, to be honest, but open to suggestions.
That said, indeed the only option would be a franchise operation. However, what would be the purpose of a franchise from Loganair's point of view? It would cost Loganair a ton of money because that is the whole concept of franchising. What would Loganair gain? Other than a brand that is not particularly well recognized in the Highlands and Islands - in contrast to British Airways - and does not offer interlining, through-check-in, a useful FFP, free luggage, pay-for-food etc. etc. (and Flybe could not allow Loganair to do things differently in order to avoid dilution of its own brand).
Or maybe an outright purchase with Loganair remaining independent under its own brand as a subsidiary? Why would Flybe be interested in that? I have no idea, to be honest, but open to suggestions.
Fit like min?
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ...
Posts: 2,126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've heard nothing to suggest further ABZ (be delighted to be proved wrong! 
)
I think INV is in line for growth, likes of AMS, CDG, MAN if I remember rightly, although they were maybe announced already?
)I think INV is in line for growth, likes of AMS, CDG, MAN if I remember rightly, although they were maybe announced already?
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: East Yorkshire
Posts: 453
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HH6702
How do you think that BE are going to compete with T3 on NCL - CWL if they are only offering a once a day service at lunchtime. Yes they may take the £20 return brigade who book months in advance to see Aunt Daffy in the valleys. But T3 traffic is the business brigade who want daily returns to be with their families, not overnighting at the Holiday Inn Express on the Cardiff Ring Road.
Richard Taylor
BE cut their LBA-ABZ flights so I can not see BE expanding vastly at ABZ, yes maybe LGW - ABZ but if I am honest more probably fits in the Orange scheme of things.
BE Loganair join up or expansion at INV
BE have a lot of bridges to repair with INV business traffic after their diabolical LGW disruptions. Again what benefits for Loganair with a BE tieup
How do you think that BE are going to compete with T3 on NCL - CWL if they are only offering a once a day service at lunchtime. Yes they may take the £20 return brigade who book months in advance to see Aunt Daffy in the valleys. But T3 traffic is the business brigade who want daily returns to be with their families, not overnighting at the Holiday Inn Express on the Cardiff Ring Road.
Richard Taylor
BE cut their LBA-ABZ flights so I can not see BE expanding vastly at ABZ, yes maybe LGW - ABZ but if I am honest more probably fits in the Orange scheme of things.
BE Loganair join up or expansion at INV
BE have a lot of bridges to repair with INV business traffic after their diabolical LGW disruptions. Again what benefits for Loganair with a BE tieup
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: BHX
Age: 44
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flybe signs historic franchise deal with Loganair
14 January 2008
Flybe is today announcing a landmark franchise Agreement signed with Loganair, the Scottish regional airline, that will see it take to the skies in Flybe colours on 26th October 2008 at the start of the IATA 2008 Winter Season. As a result of the Agreement - that becomes effective once Loganair’s current Agreement operating as a British Airways franchisee ends on 25th October - 3.2 million seats for flights with Flybe flight numbers will go on sale in June 2008. The Agreement with Loganair – the first of its kind ever for a low cost carrier - is in line with Flybe’s innovative philosophy and strategy of continuing to build a market-leading position as Europe's largest regional airline following last year’s acquisition of BA Connect. It is also further evidence of the airline’s commitment to building a significant presence in the Scottish market and to expanding its route network there, extending Flybe’s low fare model throughout the UK - including the Highlands and Islands - which have not previously benefited from low cost airlines.
`Flybe Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Jim French says: “This landmark agreement, the first time a low cost carrier has entered into such a franchise arrangement, is an exciting development in the evolution of the low cost model and one which Flybe sees as a valid strategic option for the future.”
In further comment, Loganair’s Chairman Scott Grier says: “This is an exciting time for everyone at Loganair and a significant step for the company. The move to become a franchise partner with Flybe provides certainty and removes speculation about the future of the company. We continue to be committed to operating throughout the Highlands and Islands and this will benefit our customers with a greater choice of connections to UK and European destinations.”
Mr French adds: “This is a win-win for both airlines. For Flybe, we will see our presence in the key Scottish market greatly enhanced and will benefit from increased passenger traffic into our existing network. For Loganair, the alliance is a major opportunity to bring the recognised brand of Europe’s largest regional airline and the benefits of the low cost model to over half a million passengers.”
14 January 2008
Flybe is today announcing a landmark franchise Agreement signed with Loganair, the Scottish regional airline, that will see it take to the skies in Flybe colours on 26th October 2008 at the start of the IATA 2008 Winter Season. As a result of the Agreement - that becomes effective once Loganair’s current Agreement operating as a British Airways franchisee ends on 25th October - 3.2 million seats for flights with Flybe flight numbers will go on sale in June 2008. The Agreement with Loganair – the first of its kind ever for a low cost carrier - is in line with Flybe’s innovative philosophy and strategy of continuing to build a market-leading position as Europe's largest regional airline following last year’s acquisition of BA Connect. It is also further evidence of the airline’s commitment to building a significant presence in the Scottish market and to expanding its route network there, extending Flybe’s low fare model throughout the UK - including the Highlands and Islands - which have not previously benefited from low cost airlines.
`Flybe Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Jim French says: “This landmark agreement, the first time a low cost carrier has entered into such a franchise arrangement, is an exciting development in the evolution of the low cost model and one which Flybe sees as a valid strategic option for the future.”
In further comment, Loganair’s Chairman Scott Grier says: “This is an exciting time for everyone at Loganair and a significant step for the company. The move to become a franchise partner with Flybe provides certainty and removes speculation about the future of the company. We continue to be committed to operating throughout the Highlands and Islands and this will benefit our customers with a greater choice of connections to UK and European destinations.”
Mr French adds: “This is a win-win for both airlines. For Flybe, we will see our presence in the key Scottish market greatly enhanced and will benefit from increased passenger traffic into our existing network. For Loganair, the alliance is a major opportunity to bring the recognised brand of Europe’s largest regional airline and the benefits of the low cost model to over half a million passengers.”
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, if you read carefully, you will see that I did not say it would not happen, I was saying that I do not see the point of a franchise.
A true franchise agreement costs money, and quite a bit of it. In the past the point for Loganair was to allow through-connections via GLA, ABZ or EDI on British Airways plus access to their FFP etc. pp. none of it will be involved with Flybe unless Flybe changes its model. And because a franchise costs money, Loganair withdrew their Islander operation a while ago from the BA franchise.
I would like to see some explanations what exactly the advantages for Loganair are Mr. French is mentioning. I do not see the low cost model work in a 20 seat Twin Otter, let alone in an Islander.
Probably the main reason for Loganair was to get access to a distribution system. For that purpose, a simple code-share would have been less expensive than a more expensive franchise. Particularly as Flybe does connections, but not when sold through their LCC platform to which the brand is linked.
A true franchise agreement costs money, and quite a bit of it. In the past the point for Loganair was to allow through-connections via GLA, ABZ or EDI on British Airways plus access to their FFP etc. pp. none of it will be involved with Flybe unless Flybe changes its model. And because a franchise costs money, Loganair withdrew their Islander operation a while ago from the BA franchise.
For Loganair, the alliance is a major opportunity to bring the recognised brand of Europe’s largest regional airline and the benefits of the low cost model to over half a million passengers
Probably the main reason for Loganair was to get access to a distribution system. For that purpose, a simple code-share would have been less expensive than a more expensive franchise. Particularly as Flybe does connections, but not when sold through their LCC platform to which the brand is linked.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
virginblue.
To correct you. FFP will still stand as flights connecting through GLA,EDI & ABZ with onward BA connections will come under a continuing codeshare agreement with BA. Thus these flights will still be booked via BA on their website. Baggage can be checked all the way through on these connecting flights aswell.
It is a franchise not a take-over. Loganair will still offer complimentary services onboard their flights. It will still be loganair with Flybe representation and BA codeshare. Flybe doesn't have to change their business model to allow Loganair to operate this way. I think it's a very clever move. It gives Flybe full representation in the Highlands & Islands without having to alter the mainline business model to fit this niche market, and causes very little disruption to the passengers at the same time.
To correct you. FFP will still stand as flights connecting through GLA,EDI & ABZ with onward BA connections will come under a continuing codeshare agreement with BA. Thus these flights will still be booked via BA on their website. Baggage can be checked all the way through on these connecting flights aswell.
It is a franchise not a take-over. Loganair will still offer complimentary services onboard their flights. It will still be loganair with Flybe representation and BA codeshare. Flybe doesn't have to change their business model to allow Loganair to operate this way. I think it's a very clever move. It gives Flybe full representation in the Highlands & Islands without having to alter the mainline business model to fit this niche market, and causes very little disruption to the passengers at the same time.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To correct you. FFP will still stand as flights connecting through GLA,EDI & ABZ with onward BA connections will come under a continuing codeshare agreement with BA. Thus these flights will still be booked via BA on their website. Baggage can be checked all the way through on these connecting flights aswell.
All in all, these points nicely demonstrate that the franchise obviously does not give Loganair what they feel they need as otherwise there is little point in having a franchise with one airline and a code-share with the other airline that used to be the old franchiser.
It is a franchise not a take-over. Loganair will still offer complimentary services onboard their flights. It will still be loganair with Flybe representation and BA codeshare. Flybe doesn't have to change their business model to allow Loganair to operate this way. I think it's a very clever move. It gives Flybe full representation in the Highlands & Islands without having to alter the mainline business model to fit this niche market, and causes very little disruption to the passengers at the same time.
All in all it is a rather bizarre franchise. A bit like a McDonald's franchise where the new outlet says. "But we will sell a Whopper instead of a BigMac and will also throw in some onion rings." What is going on with Flybe and Loganair certainly is not a textbook franchise. For a franchiser, one of the core principles of franchising is that the product is the same whereever it is sold undr the brand. Everything else confuses customer who flies Flybe on the first leg, gets a nice drink, free luggage and an assigned seat and on the next is expected to pay for the same kind of service.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Midlands, UK
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It'll all come out in the wash!
I would expect Loganair to completely disappear within say, 5 years as it's absorbed 100% into FlyBe...Isn't Grier 67 this year!?!
I met Jim French last year, he said "the future is in acquisitions"
I would expect Loganair to completely disappear within say, 5 years as it's absorbed 100% into FlyBe...Isn't Grier 67 this year!?!
I met Jim French last year, he said "the future is in acquisitions"
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Virginblue,
Those are all good questions of which I'm afraid I can't answer. I don't profess to know much about the intricate business side of this deal, although the buzz from the management is that LC will gain a lot from this tie up aswell. I think the 'on-line' aspects and the synergies in ground handling etc all play a part. The BN2s operating the Orkney inter-island services will not be included in the franchise. They are now and will remain as pure Loganair services. What it means for the future? Who knows? I'm sure Loganair will take it all in it's stride and just continue to do what it does best everyday for the Scottish communities.
Good to have some decent debate with you though VB. Cheers.
Those are all good questions of which I'm afraid I can't answer. I don't profess to know much about the intricate business side of this deal, although the buzz from the management is that LC will gain a lot from this tie up aswell. I think the 'on-line' aspects and the synergies in ground handling etc all play a part. The BN2s operating the Orkney inter-island services will not be included in the franchise. They are now and will remain as pure Loganair services. What it means for the future? Who knows? I'm sure Loganair will take it all in it's stride and just continue to do what it does best everyday for the Scottish communities.
Good to have some decent debate with you though VB. Cheers.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wellie Bomber, you said BE have a lot of bridges to repair with INV business traffic after their diabolical LGW disruptions. Again what benefits for Loganair with a BE tieup
Its my understanding that BE have cancelled one flight out of INV since Sept - hardly diabolical. And they're bringing in the E195 which I can highly recommend having flown in one last week. It could be argued that Flybe are looking after INV far better than the Waterside mob ever did.
And you also said Again what benefits for Loganair with a BE tieup
Other than Flybe's marketing spend, better UK connections, an online booking engine that works and franchising with an airline that gives a monkey about the regions, bugger all I suppose......
Its my understanding that BE have cancelled one flight out of INV since Sept - hardly diabolical. And they're bringing in the E195 which I can highly recommend having flown in one last week. It could be argued that Flybe are looking after INV far better than the Waterside mob ever did.
And you also said Again what benefits for Loganair with a BE tieup
Other than Flybe's marketing spend, better UK connections, an online booking engine that works and franchising with an airline that gives a monkey about the regions, bugger all I suppose......
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Black Isle
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wellie Bomber, you said BE have a lot of bridges to repair with INV business traffic after their diabolical LGW disruptions. Again what benefits for Loganair with a BE tieup
Its my understanding that BE have cancelled one flight out of INV since Sept - hardly diabolical. And they're bringing in the E195 which I can highly recommend having flown in one last week. It could be argued that Flybe are looking after INV far better than the Waterside mob ever did.
Its my understanding that BE have cancelled one flight out of INV since Sept - hardly diabolical. And they're bringing in the E195 which I can highly recommend having flown in one last week. It could be argued that Flybe are looking after INV far better than the Waterside mob ever did.
So I'm still avoiding Flybe where there is any half-reasonable alternative; of course the abject service standards and LGW S have something to do with it too
