ALDERNEY
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: a rock near 50 North
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think its that anyone wants to get rid of Aurigny - what the island of Alderney needs is an air service that works for the island and is reliable. Something we are not getting.
Changing to a 'ticket-office' is not going to work in the long term.
Changing to a 'ticket-office' is not going to work in the long term.
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Dorchester
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just how restricted is Alderney's runway? Could a Fokker 50 operate (with no or limited weight restrictions) from there? Or is that already too big?
Full details on NATS - NATS | AIS - Home
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Regrettably far from 50°N
Posts: 917
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here's the link.
Alderney-based airline won't compete with Aurigny | Channel - ITV News
Citywing want sole operator rights to operate a subsidised service out of Alderney. Cynics would say that is exactly the position Aurigny finds itself in at the moment, but a de facto subsidy for the latter is to a States-owned company - not to a private entity based in another jurisdiction. The fact remains that subsidising both would be an egregious waste of taxpayers' money given the size of the market.
Aside from its flaws which I did to death in an earlier post on the previous page, if this plan did come to fruition it would be on the basis that Aurigny phased out its Trislander fleet, saved considerable cost to its bottom line by not having to consider their replacements and the States of Alderney (we assume) funded one subsidised operator of air services to its own island. One might speculate that there are some in Guernsey's Treasury and at Aurigny who would be greatful for the opportunity to hang up what they might see as their moaning millstone. Mark Darby's letter to the so-called 'Alderney Pressure Group' last year, published on this forum, displayed more than a little of this temperament, with the differerence that the CAA would never have given its assent to their plans, whereas Citywing's are at least not illegal.
Alderney-based airline won't compete with Aurigny | Channel - ITV News
Citywing want sole operator rights to operate a subsidised service out of Alderney. Cynics would say that is exactly the position Aurigny finds itself in at the moment, but a de facto subsidy for the latter is to a States-owned company - not to a private entity based in another jurisdiction. The fact remains that subsidising both would be an egregious waste of taxpayers' money given the size of the market.
Aside from its flaws which I did to death in an earlier post on the previous page, if this plan did come to fruition it would be on the basis that Aurigny phased out its Trislander fleet, saved considerable cost to its bottom line by not having to consider their replacements and the States of Alderney (we assume) funded one subsidised operator of air services to its own island. One might speculate that there are some in Guernsey's Treasury and at Aurigny who would be greatful for the opportunity to hang up what they might see as their moaning millstone. Mark Darby's letter to the so-called 'Alderney Pressure Group' last year, published on this forum, displayed more than a little of this temperament, with the differerence that the CAA would never have given its assent to their plans, whereas Citywing's are at least not illegal.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,621
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BBC reports Citywing airline asked to run Alderney-Jersey route:
Citywing has been asked to fly between Alderney and Jersey under proposals from the States of Alderney.
...
The Policy and Finance Committee agreed to invite Citywing to operate a seasonal service as it discussed four transport proposals.
A spokesman said reopening the part-time route could generate summer trade without conflicting with services.
...
...
The Policy and Finance Committee agreed to invite Citywing to operate a seasonal service as it discussed four transport proposals.
A spokesman said reopening the part-time route could generate summer trade without conflicting with services.
...
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: on my boat in the Caribbean
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having previously flown aircraft on that route I would say that it would be totally unprofitable. By the by, what's the PCN for ACI? Last time I looked it didn't have one, which would rule out such aircraft as a DH8-100.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: East Atlantic
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A trislander was chartered by the States of Alderney to do the ACI-JCI route for five weeks a while back, it showed a profit.
Bear in mind that Alderney people pay a similar fare to get to Jersey as they do Southampton (70-90 each way), if an operator cannot make a profit at that for a 20 minute flight I would be shocked.
Bear in mind that Alderney people pay a similar fare to get to Jersey as they do Southampton (70-90 each way), if an operator cannot make a profit at that for a 20 minute flight I would be shocked.
Point we'll made, & accepted. But, both AUR & BCI abandoned the route prior to that; which says something about the profitability !
Perhaps it is one thing to operate a locally based BN3 & quite another to operate a more sophisticated aircraft which has to be flown in to 'JA from quite a long way away (& then flown back to base).
This is what would have to happen if Citywing were to be the operator of this service; which, I presume, would not be daily but, even if it was, the aircraft would either be left doing nothing for the rest of the day or have to be flown back to the UK to be utilized elsewhere. Because, I cannot imagine that there would be more than 2 services per day on this route (even 1 per day would be pushing it, in my opinion).
What are we talking about ? 1 service per day equals 20 seats in each direction ie 40 pax capacity. 2 per day = 80. With Alderney's population of 2000 & demand from Jersey likely to be very small - less than 10 per day ?, even with sky high fares I don't see a highly profitable enterprise here.
Perhaps it is one thing to operate a locally based BN3 & quite another to operate a more sophisticated aircraft which has to be flown in to 'JA from quite a long way away (& then flown back to base).
This is what would have to happen if Citywing were to be the operator of this service; which, I presume, would not be daily but, even if it was, the aircraft would either be left doing nothing for the rest of the day or have to be flown back to the UK to be utilized elsewhere. Because, I cannot imagine that there would be more than 2 services per day on this route (even 1 per day would be pushing it, in my opinion).
What are we talking about ? 1 service per day equals 20 seats in each direction ie 40 pax capacity. 2 per day = 80. With Alderney's population of 2000 & demand from Jersey likely to be very small - less than 10 per day ?, even with sky high fares I don't see a highly profitable enterprise here.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: East Atlantic
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Alderney - Jersey route is a little more political than it is financial.
The route was operated for many years, by various airlines and incarnations of airlines. Remember Rockhopper, as it was then?
Aurigny pulled out of the route saying, and reiterating to this day, that they would never return to it. How much Guernsey (island of not Bailiwick) government influence that decision by wanting Alderney's travellers to go via GCI, ideally over night, has influenced that position can only be guessed at.
We all know that the Bailiwick's population is shrinking, which does suggest that subsidies are needed for transport. But that is hardly new is it, the amount and accessibility of the subsidy are harder to pin down though.
As far as Alderney tourism, Jersey is a much richer marketing ground than Guernsey. Both in terms of Jersey residents, many of whom have links/fondness/desire for what Alderney has to offer, but also in terms of visitors accessing the islands via the largest island's air links.
Add to that the base of business, with numerous people in Alderney travelling to Jersey regularly and the ones who would but cannot afford to wait three hours in Guernsey.
How many seats a day this equates to is hard to define, but the demand is there for sure and in both directions.
You are quite right of course, flying in an empty aircraft from a distant base of operations is madness. I would rather charter an Aurigny aircraft, but the notional 4 Tris and 3 Dornis are yet to be made real.
The route was operated for many years, by various airlines and incarnations of airlines. Remember Rockhopper, as it was then?
Aurigny pulled out of the route saying, and reiterating to this day, that they would never return to it. How much Guernsey (island of not Bailiwick) government influence that decision by wanting Alderney's travellers to go via GCI, ideally over night, has influenced that position can only be guessed at.
We all know that the Bailiwick's population is shrinking, which does suggest that subsidies are needed for transport. But that is hardly new is it, the amount and accessibility of the subsidy are harder to pin down though.
As far as Alderney tourism, Jersey is a much richer marketing ground than Guernsey. Both in terms of Jersey residents, many of whom have links/fondness/desire for what Alderney has to offer, but also in terms of visitors accessing the islands via the largest island's air links.
Add to that the base of business, with numerous people in Alderney travelling to Jersey regularly and the ones who would but cannot afford to wait three hours in Guernsey.
How many seats a day this equates to is hard to define, but the demand is there for sure and in both directions.
You are quite right of course, flying in an empty aircraft from a distant base of operations is madness. I would rather charter an Aurigny aircraft, but the notional 4 Tris and 3 Dornis are yet to be made real.
Malthouse
I read your views/information with interest. You are perfectly correct when you raise the political dimension; & this is, I believe, a politically motivated idea (Jersey service).
I accept your points as factual, although I feel that they are tinged with a little optimism. I would like to see such a service happen; & survive, &, if the political will is there then it may well do so (with a possible subsidy). I still have doubts on the demand from only a 2000 population & ( as a Jersey resident who worked in Jersey ATC for 30 years, & as someone who loves Alderney) I still don't think that there is enough demand from Jersey to sustain this service.
As a C.I. Resident for 65 years, I am well aware of the sometimes unrealistic aspirations of the local politicians & have seen a number of ideas (most not very well thought out) come to nothing over the years. I hope that this idea is more successful than those others. Time will tell !
I read your views/information with interest. You are perfectly correct when you raise the political dimension; & this is, I believe, a politically motivated idea (Jersey service).
I accept your points as factual, although I feel that they are tinged with a little optimism. I would like to see such a service happen; & survive, &, if the political will is there then it may well do so (with a possible subsidy). I still have doubts on the demand from only a 2000 population & ( as a Jersey resident who worked in Jersey ATC for 30 years, & as someone who loves Alderney) I still don't think that there is enough demand from Jersey to sustain this service.
As a C.I. Resident for 65 years, I am well aware of the sometimes unrealistic aspirations of the local politicians & have seen a number of ideas (most not very well thought out) come to nothing over the years. I hope that this idea is more successful than those others. Time will tell !
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: a rock near 50 North
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Back in my days at Aurigny, the ACI-JER route was very successful, twice a day service, and carried about 60% of ACI-GCI pax numbers. Sorry can't remember the numbers.
There was then a change in management and AUR went regional from GCI. What followed was, in my opinion, a deliberate move to get pax to/from ACI to go via GCI and use their regional UK services. The JER route was cut to one a day, and at a time (late morning) that was of no use to anyone, pax numbers collapsed overnight, and then the route was quickly dropped.
Rockhopper/Blue Islands came along and thought they could do better. They did fairly well in the first year but their eyes were really on the ACI-GCI cream.
The States of Alderney then made a massive mistake by granting BCI the ACI-GCI licence in competition with AUR without linking it to a condition of maintaining the JER route. No guesses what happened next.
BCI then did a period of ACI-JER fares but routing via GCI, which was better than nothing. The transfer in GCI was only 15 minutes, so no big deal. A bit different to AUR's 5 hour wait now !!
So yes, there is a market for ACI-JER provided the timings are suitable for business people, connecting to UK services ex JER, and shoppers.
There was then a change in management and AUR went regional from GCI. What followed was, in my opinion, a deliberate move to get pax to/from ACI to go via GCI and use their regional UK services. The JER route was cut to one a day, and at a time (late morning) that was of no use to anyone, pax numbers collapsed overnight, and then the route was quickly dropped.
Rockhopper/Blue Islands came along and thought they could do better. They did fairly well in the first year but their eyes were really on the ACI-GCI cream.
The States of Alderney then made a massive mistake by granting BCI the ACI-GCI licence in competition with AUR without linking it to a condition of maintaining the JER route. No guesses what happened next.
BCI then did a period of ACI-JER fares but routing via GCI, which was better than nothing. The transfer in GCI was only 15 minutes, so no big deal. A bit different to AUR's 5 hour wait now !!
So yes, there is a market for ACI-JER provided the timings are suitable for business people, connecting to UK services ex JER, and shoppers.
Five zero by ortac
We'll, you live there & have plenty of knowledge & experience of Alderney air services, so I accept what you say (& agree with pretty much all of it).
As I say, I would like to see this route opened again, & maintained. So,let's hope that you're right.
We'll, you live there & have plenty of knowledge & experience of Alderney air services, so I accept what you say (& agree with pretty much all of it).
As I say, I would like to see this route opened again, & maintained. So,let's hope that you're right.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Regrettably far from 50°N
Posts: 917
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
five zero by ortac, just curious but now GR has a substantially higher avg load factor on its GCI-UK regional services than it once did, given the substantially reduced yield available from ACI passengers tranferring (evident from the breakdown of any such booking) would it really be in GR's commercial interest to try and shoe-horn them through GCI? There have been many occasions when I've travelled ACI-LGW and noted that I'm paying upwards of 50 per cent less booking on that route rather than on a comparable GCI-LGW direct booking made on the same day.
Re the demise of ACI-JER, you suggest that GR sought to end it on purpose. The following was my own reading of the demise of ACI-JER - is this not correct? Rockhopper was granted a license to commence operations on the route in late 2003 and Aurigny terminated its flights from Alderney to Jersey in early October 2004, citing the shrinking of the market from 9,356 passengers in 2003 to 4,687 passengers in 2004 and what it saw as unsustainable competition which would not have been incurred had it been the sole operator. Rockhopper cut the route in early 2005; only 54 passengers were carried between the two islands that year. Under new management, Blue Islands made seasonal returns for some of the summer months to the route from 2006 until 2009, when it stopped.
Re the demise of ACI-JER, you suggest that GR sought to end it on purpose. The following was my own reading of the demise of ACI-JER - is this not correct? Rockhopper was granted a license to commence operations on the route in late 2003 and Aurigny terminated its flights from Alderney to Jersey in early October 2004, citing the shrinking of the market from 9,356 passengers in 2003 to 4,687 passengers in 2004 and what it saw as unsustainable competition which would not have been incurred had it been the sole operator. Rockhopper cut the route in early 2005; only 54 passengers were carried between the two islands that year. Under new management, Blue Islands made seasonal returns for some of the summer months to the route from 2006 until 2009, when it stopped.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: East Atlantic
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The local paper has run a small piece about the prospect of Citiwings running a Alderney-Jersey route, they report that there are already running a Gloucester route into Jersey.