BACitiExpress The final solution!
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Re: BACitiExpress The final solution!
None of this inspires me.
I just wonder why no-one ever thinks of consulting mere passengers.
After all it is ultimately us and us alone that can ever make this a success. Think about it.
Are we likely to go back to BACX with these cosmetic changes?
NO.
In fact it may even disenfranchise those loyal customers that remain - the message I read from BACON is that regional passengers aren't quite worthy enough of a proper BA service.
To solve a problem - whatever it is - you need to understand the nature of it and I truely believe that no-one from Willie Walsh downwards has ever bothered to find out why people have been deserting BACX in their droves.
'After all what do the punters know?' seems to be an attitude that pervades the industry. The only possible answer from the punters to this kind of attitude will be 'sod 'em what do we care - let's just buy the cheapest thing on offer'. And they usually do nowadays.
Just to look at PPRUNE for instance - the expression 'self loading freight' just about sums it up. The impression one is left with is that passengers are a troublesome burden to the people that work in the industry.
There are many reasons why there are and, from this I can see, will continue to be, problems and I haven't got the time but as many on this thread have identified, a major issue for punters from the regions is the puny claustrophobic aircraft usually parked out on the taxiway away from the proper planes - the message being - you're not a proper customer.
EMB145s are awful and to be avoided and the RJ similarly bad - designed so that barely anyone can see out of the window and with a hydraulic system that sounds like you're in a death dive when the flaps are lowered.
Ultimately can you imagine BA flying a full size aircraft between Manchester and Gdansk? Well Ryanair are about to do that from Liverpool with its much smaller catchment area (no doubt successfully) - something wrong eh?
I just wonder why no-one ever thinks of consulting mere passengers.
After all it is ultimately us and us alone that can ever make this a success. Think about it.
Are we likely to go back to BACX with these cosmetic changes?
NO.
In fact it may even disenfranchise those loyal customers that remain - the message I read from BACON is that regional passengers aren't quite worthy enough of a proper BA service.
To solve a problem - whatever it is - you need to understand the nature of it and I truely believe that no-one from Willie Walsh downwards has ever bothered to find out why people have been deserting BACX in their droves.
'After all what do the punters know?' seems to be an attitude that pervades the industry. The only possible answer from the punters to this kind of attitude will be 'sod 'em what do we care - let's just buy the cheapest thing on offer'. And they usually do nowadays.
Just to look at PPRUNE for instance - the expression 'self loading freight' just about sums it up. The impression one is left with is that passengers are a troublesome burden to the people that work in the industry.
There are many reasons why there are and, from this I can see, will continue to be, problems and I haven't got the time but as many on this thread have identified, a major issue for punters from the regions is the puny claustrophobic aircraft usually parked out on the taxiway away from the proper planes - the message being - you're not a proper customer.
EMB145s are awful and to be avoided and the RJ similarly bad - designed so that barely anyone can see out of the window and with a hydraulic system that sounds like you're in a death dive when the flaps are lowered.
Ultimately can you imagine BA flying a full size aircraft between Manchester and Gdansk? Well Ryanair are about to do that from Liverpool with its much smaller catchment area (no doubt successfully) - something wrong eh?
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Re: BACitiExpress The final solution!
Surprised no one has mentioned this but considering todays announcement would I be correct in saying that for once bmi beat ba to it. Model sounds suspiciously similiar to the much maligned (on pprune anyway) mixed modal that bmi launched last year?
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Re: BACitiExpress The final solution!
BACitiexpress The final countdown!
Wrong fleet
wrong management
wrong culture
wrong parent
set in it's ways
unionised in part
divided
Fat infrastructure
& more interested in "Flight monitoring" than making the business work
It can not change enough to make money - I fear bloodshed within a year
Wrong fleet
wrong management
wrong culture
wrong parent
set in it's ways
unionised in part
divided
Fat infrastructure
& more interested in "Flight monitoring" than making the business work
It can not change enough to make money - I fear bloodshed within a year
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Re: BACitiExpress The final solution!
I think the problems stem from 1997 when BA underestimated the arrival of easyJet at Liverpool. The problem is that if BA/BACON give up anymore slots or routes up at Manchester then that would give "the big orange" a possible entrance into Manchester.
Wizz Air will be operating to Gdansk from Liverpool and a catchment area isn't really based on population but based on the routes served from a given airport. With regards to Gdansk, the catchment area from Liverpool is larger, than say the catchment for Malaga, because it is the only service to that city from the North of England/Midlands.
Wizz Air will be operating to Gdansk from Liverpool and a catchment area isn't really based on population but based on the routes served from a given airport. With regards to Gdansk, the catchment area from Liverpool is larger, than say the catchment for Malaga, because it is the only service to that city from the North of England/Midlands.
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Re: BACitiExpress The final solution!
I can see the logic of what they are doing, and the service they are trying to provide - but the fleet mix is definitely something which they need to address. It seems way too muddled and the 45 seaters are just wrong for this sort of operation.
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Re: BACitiExpress The final solution!
A few of you have said that no one has asked the passenger.However,more often than is needed,Global Performance Monitor surveys are carried out on our flights,approximately 5 days out of a month.They are handed out to the passengers who fill them in.Comments i have seen a lot:
-a better meal needed rather than petty sandwich/croissant
-cheaper fares
and THIS is exactly what they are doing.offering people hot and cold food on flights.reducing the fares.YES i admit,they should keep club,because there are frequent flyers who use it.and these are the people we will lose.theyve already been telling the crew they'll fly with other carriers now BACX are dropping the business class.but theyve listened to the majority.to be honest they should have gone towards the Duo sort of service.Full works,all one class,BUSINESS CLASS,at reasonable prices.
but who am i to say what they should have done?im just the person who has to look after the passengers.
-a better meal needed rather than petty sandwich/croissant
-cheaper fares
and THIS is exactly what they are doing.offering people hot and cold food on flights.reducing the fares.YES i admit,they should keep club,because there are frequent flyers who use it.and these are the people we will lose.theyve already been telling the crew they'll fly with other carriers now BACX are dropping the business class.but theyve listened to the majority.to be honest they should have gone towards the Duo sort of service.Full works,all one class,BUSINESS CLASS,at reasonable prices.
but who am i to say what they should have done?im just the person who has to look after the passengers.
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Re: BACitiExpress The final solution!
tiggerific - Surely going all Duo-style is the LAST thing they should have done. It was a nice idea, but it didn't work, it didn't get the punters, it didn't make money and ultimately it fell on its own arse. QED.
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Re: BACitiExpress The final solution!
Originally Posted by blahblahblah
Surprised no one has mentioned this but considering todays announcement would I be correct in saying that for once bmi beat ba to it. Model sounds suspiciously similiar to the much maligned (on pprune anyway) mixed modal that bmi launched last year?
Not really. The BMi one a gold card holder on a baby ticket gets no miles, gold card holder ona baby ticket gets no lounge access.
I would say it has moved the european routes closer to a shuttle style service. All one class, some people with Lounge access in the same cabin as people that do not have access. Only difference is all fairs are changable and you have to pay for food.
To be honest as well Business class is not worth keeping on a Emb as the only difference between that and economy is the fact that you get a different meal. Seat is exactly the same as the economy one.
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Re: BACitiExpress The final solution!
If the 145 is to small for this model perhaps they should have retained the RJ100 that are just off to Swiss. Ah well a little late now.
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Re: BACitiExpress The final solution!
Well, majority verdict seems to be thumbs down. Personally, I don't see what else we could have done, and at least it sort of takes on the competition head on. It deserves to work, but then, so did Operation Market Garden!!
The main problems are :
1 The planes. Too small, too many types, too expensive to operate on a pax/seat/mile basis.
2. And worse, our management. A proven track record of total wreckage, failure and incompetence. Whether we talk Fosse, (gone in disgrace), Evans (time server approaching a well heeled retirement), Hutchings (boy wonder who had insufficient experience, even less ability, but a huge ego), Phelan, (ha ha ha haha ha - Hutchings' brother in law, need I say more?) - I mean, there is just no capability to make anything work, as they have all repeatedly proved over the last few years.
Solution - a ballsy order of Emb 190s, a hiring of someone who knows how it all works (Cassani) - and then maybe we employees could look ahead with confidence and raised morale. As it is, well, just wait for it - Crew food will become a bag of sarnies, cabin crew will be forced to clean the cabins, turnround times will be reduced causing increased ADDs and unserviceabilities. And still, we won't have one formula. There will be (wait for it) an OMAN stating the five new cabin announcements depending on what service is being offered....Oh, why oh why, it could all have been so different.
Some comments here about selling us off - the question has to be that if the plan fails, who will want, or need to buy us and the incumbent fleets of inappropriate aeroplanes?
The main problems are :
1 The planes. Too small, too many types, too expensive to operate on a pax/seat/mile basis.
2. And worse, our management. A proven track record of total wreckage, failure and incompetence. Whether we talk Fosse, (gone in disgrace), Evans (time server approaching a well heeled retirement), Hutchings (boy wonder who had insufficient experience, even less ability, but a huge ego), Phelan, (ha ha ha haha ha - Hutchings' brother in law, need I say more?) - I mean, there is just no capability to make anything work, as they have all repeatedly proved over the last few years.
Solution - a ballsy order of Emb 190s, a hiring of someone who knows how it all works (Cassani) - and then maybe we employees could look ahead with confidence and raised morale. As it is, well, just wait for it - Crew food will become a bag of sarnies, cabin crew will be forced to clean the cabins, turnround times will be reduced causing increased ADDs and unserviceabilities. And still, we won't have one formula. There will be (wait for it) an OMAN stating the five new cabin announcements depending on what service is being offered....Oh, why oh why, it could all have been so different.
Some comments here about selling us off - the question has to be that if the plan fails, who will want, or need to buy us and the incumbent fleets of inappropriate aeroplanes?
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Re: BACitiExpress The final solution!
[QUOTE=Ametyst]The problem is that if BA/BACON give up anymore slots or routes up at Manchester then that would give "the big orange" a possible entrance into Manchester.
Why would that be a problem? A damned good thing IMHO. Didn't they originally want to opeate from MAN instead of LPL in the first place but couldn't get the slots - I'm sure I remember the Stelios TV interview at the time and thinking 'damn!'
Still they manage to make it work out of three London airports, why not two in the NW ?- 2nd biggest concentration of population in the UK.
I see BA/BACON becoming an irrelevance in time if this is the best idea they can come up with. I would however see this as a positive, if it persuaded EZY into MAN.
Why would that be a problem? A damned good thing IMHO. Didn't they originally want to opeate from MAN instead of LPL in the first place but couldn't get the slots - I'm sure I remember the Stelios TV interview at the time and thinking 'damn!'
Still they manage to make it work out of three London airports, why not two in the NW ?- 2nd biggest concentration of population in the UK.
I see BA/BACON becoming an irrelevance in time if this is the best idea they can come up with. I would however see this as a positive, if it persuaded EZY into MAN.
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Re: BACitiExpress The final solution!
Captain Correlli........re: fosse Noo Fosse should have been kept! Look at him now soaring up at the top of BA. He must thank the day his colleagues helped him pack! Many will agree that this may have been the right moment to clear out the top shelf. including the man behind the man - SW - and get some fresh management with no baggage or egos who can do the best with what they have.
Last edited by Grand yahoo; 11th Jan 2006 at 07:16.
Re: BACitiExpress The final solution!
One wonders whether one will be able to buy a bacon sandwich on board these ba con-trick flights?
Still, at least it gives the BHX-FRA LH Business Class customers a bigger stick to hit their bean counters with. "Why should we pay so much for your dumbed-down cabin service and flights at unacceptable times when your main competitor on this route undercuts your prices by several hundred Euros?"
Still, at least it gives the BHX-FRA LH Business Class customers a bigger stick to hit their bean counters with. "Why should we pay so much for your dumbed-down cabin service and flights at unacceptable times when your main competitor on this route undercuts your prices by several hundred Euros?"
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Re: BACitiExpress The final solution!
Willie could always trade in some 145 options for say 190/195s... seem to be going down well with AC pax, if not their ground staff.
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Re: BACitiExpress The final solution!
At least BACON will still allow luggage to be checked for free.... unlike Flybe from February 1st.
Flybe, one of Europe’s leading low cost airlines, today announces its new ‘Fair Deal on Baggage’ for air travellers, which will come into effect in early February for 2006. Under the ‘Fair Deal’:
- If you do not carry checked baggage, you will no longer have to pay the cost of carrying other peoples bags and will save £1 off your ticket
- Flybe will double the weight allowance that can be carried as hand baggage.
- Flybe will remove excess baggage charges for 99% of the travelling public by increasing hold baggage allowance to 25kgs (the highest in the low cost sector).
- Flybe will exempt all economy plus passengers from paying any baggage costs (up to 30kg).
- Flybe will introduce charges for each checked item of hold baggage of £2, per item, per sector, if booked in advance, and £4 per item, per sector if presented un-booked at the airport
- As a result of the change passengers will now only pay for the service they use rather than the cost being unfairly spread across all passengers on the aircraft whether they check a bag in or not
Flybe has been a leading innovator in the low cost sector, and see this development as the next logical step for this vibrant part of the aviation industry, undoing a historical inequity, in which the cost of handling baggage has been spread across all travellers, regardless of how much baggage they bring on board. Flybe see this move as a further development of its fair and transparent pricing strategy.
The pioneering move will be revenue neutral for the average consumer. Currently just over 55% of consumers check baggage into the hold of Flybe aircraft, Flybe expects this number to drop slightly to 50%. With Flybe’s announcement of a £1 universal cut in fares, plus the £2 on-line check in charge, the average price paid by consumers will not increase. Flybe will however be able to drive operational efficiencies through the ability to profile estimates of baggage to be carried, and in quicker turnaround times, that will create savings for the company. These savings will be ploughed back in to the airline further reducing fares for consumers over the next few years.
Jim French, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Flybe said: “For the first time passengers checking bags onto flights will pay for the service they use rather than the cost being unfairly spread across all people on the aircraft. With passengers pre-booking baggage we will be able to accurately predict the volume of baggage to be carried allowing us to handle flights with exactly the right levels of resource. This will speed up turnaround times, reduce costs and provide us with much greater operational flexibility. “
Flybe is a leader within the low cost airline sector and is continually looking at managing operational performance and keeping costs for passengers as low as possible. On Flybe flights around 45 per cent of passengers only have hand baggage, and this figure is expected to rise to over 50 per cent with the increased hand baggage allowance.
“This change in the way that we operate is about creating a fairer environment for our passengers and gaining operation efficiencies and savings which can be passed onto our customers. At Flybe we’re constantly looking for ways to put transparency and choice at the heart of our customer offering and we believe this pioneering move does just that. We are confident that other airlines will follow our lead.
Flybe’s innovative lead allows passengers to book on-line, reserve a seat on-line, and in Spring 2006 check-in on-line. Therefore passengers travelling without baggage will go straight to the boarding gate, having spent an average of 4 minutes completing the on-line integrated booking process. Flybe aims to deliver to the consumer, an experience that minimises the time booking and time spent at the airport, removing the need to queue and cutting down hassle ” added Jim French.
Flybe baggage charges will be introduced from 16th December for flights booked from 1st February and apply to all flights. Passengers who will be checking in bags can pre-book these online at the same time they but their tickets. Late booking of bags can be carried out at check-in, but will cost £4 for 25kg rather than £2.
What does 10kg really mean?
The average stay for Flybe passengers is 3 days so the increased hand baggage allowance gives more than enough room for an overnight bag for this length of stay:
X 2 pairs of jeans
X 2 jumpers
X1 pair on trainers
X4 T-shirts
Underwear
Make-up bag
Toiletries bag
Belt
Hair Straighteners
All under 10kg!
What's next.... coin operated khazis ?
Flybe, one of Europe’s leading low cost airlines, today announces its new ‘Fair Deal on Baggage’ for air travellers, which will come into effect in early February for 2006. Under the ‘Fair Deal’:
- If you do not carry checked baggage, you will no longer have to pay the cost of carrying other peoples bags and will save £1 off your ticket
- Flybe will double the weight allowance that can be carried as hand baggage.
- Flybe will remove excess baggage charges for 99% of the travelling public by increasing hold baggage allowance to 25kgs (the highest in the low cost sector).
- Flybe will exempt all economy plus passengers from paying any baggage costs (up to 30kg).
- Flybe will introduce charges for each checked item of hold baggage of £2, per item, per sector, if booked in advance, and £4 per item, per sector if presented un-booked at the airport
- As a result of the change passengers will now only pay for the service they use rather than the cost being unfairly spread across all passengers on the aircraft whether they check a bag in or not
Flybe has been a leading innovator in the low cost sector, and see this development as the next logical step for this vibrant part of the aviation industry, undoing a historical inequity, in which the cost of handling baggage has been spread across all travellers, regardless of how much baggage they bring on board. Flybe see this move as a further development of its fair and transparent pricing strategy.
The pioneering move will be revenue neutral for the average consumer. Currently just over 55% of consumers check baggage into the hold of Flybe aircraft, Flybe expects this number to drop slightly to 50%. With Flybe’s announcement of a £1 universal cut in fares, plus the £2 on-line check in charge, the average price paid by consumers will not increase. Flybe will however be able to drive operational efficiencies through the ability to profile estimates of baggage to be carried, and in quicker turnaround times, that will create savings for the company. These savings will be ploughed back in to the airline further reducing fares for consumers over the next few years.
Jim French, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Flybe said: “For the first time passengers checking bags onto flights will pay for the service they use rather than the cost being unfairly spread across all people on the aircraft. With passengers pre-booking baggage we will be able to accurately predict the volume of baggage to be carried allowing us to handle flights with exactly the right levels of resource. This will speed up turnaround times, reduce costs and provide us with much greater operational flexibility. “
Flybe is a leader within the low cost airline sector and is continually looking at managing operational performance and keeping costs for passengers as low as possible. On Flybe flights around 45 per cent of passengers only have hand baggage, and this figure is expected to rise to over 50 per cent with the increased hand baggage allowance.
“This change in the way that we operate is about creating a fairer environment for our passengers and gaining operation efficiencies and savings which can be passed onto our customers. At Flybe we’re constantly looking for ways to put transparency and choice at the heart of our customer offering and we believe this pioneering move does just that. We are confident that other airlines will follow our lead.
Flybe’s innovative lead allows passengers to book on-line, reserve a seat on-line, and in Spring 2006 check-in on-line. Therefore passengers travelling without baggage will go straight to the boarding gate, having spent an average of 4 minutes completing the on-line integrated booking process. Flybe aims to deliver to the consumer, an experience that minimises the time booking and time spent at the airport, removing the need to queue and cutting down hassle ” added Jim French.
Flybe baggage charges will be introduced from 16th December for flights booked from 1st February and apply to all flights. Passengers who will be checking in bags can pre-book these online at the same time they but their tickets. Late booking of bags can be carried out at check-in, but will cost £4 for 25kg rather than £2.
What does 10kg really mean?
The average stay for Flybe passengers is 3 days so the increased hand baggage allowance gives more than enough room for an overnight bag for this length of stay:
X 2 pairs of jeans
X 2 jumpers
X1 pair on trainers
X4 T-shirts
Underwear
Make-up bag
Toiletries bag
Belt
Hair Straighteners
All under 10kg!
What's next.... coin operated khazis ?
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Re: BACitiExpress The final solution!
I hope it all works, and I wish the very best of luck to all my old muckers still in CX. It was a real wrench leaving after a decade in the outfit, I wish that I hadn't felt it necesary, and I wish I'd done it earlier. However, congrats to BACX, at least they're trying a new approach, though I fear it's a toss-up as to which is more wrong, the equipment or the management.
Interesting to hear the SLF input here and on the Rumours thread, I wonder how much of reality it repreents - I think most pax DO vote with their wallets!
Good luck to all!
Interesting to hear the SLF input here and on the Rumours thread, I wonder how much of reality it repreents - I think most pax DO vote with their wallets!
Good luck to all!
Re: BACitiExpress The final solution!
MarkD
Unfortunately, it's a real catch 22 situation here.
We have 2 years to turn a profit. BA will not invest in new equipment unless we make a profit first. It is extremely unlikely that a profit can be made by turning 'low-cost' while using the current fleet which is unsuited to such a market.
It really does feel like a temporary stay of execution and nothing more.
rm
Unfortunately, it's a real catch 22 situation here.
We have 2 years to turn a profit. BA will not invest in new equipment unless we make a profit first. It is extremely unlikely that a profit can be made by turning 'low-cost' while using the current fleet which is unsuited to such a market.
It really does feel like a temporary stay of execution and nothing more.
rm
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Re: BACitiExpress The final solution!
Yes, was wonderng that myself. Last reports were that his meteoric rise had stalled quite badly.
Two years to sort out the mess. See http://business.guardian.co.uk/story...683496,00.html
The clocks running and the bets are on. Good luck to all tho' a new management team would go a long way to reducing the 'luck' element.
Two years to sort out the mess. See http://business.guardian.co.uk/story...683496,00.html
The clocks running and the bets are on. Good luck to all tho' a new management team would go a long way to reducing the 'luck' element.