DUNDEE
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Scotland
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AMS route
It's not a Border Force issue that the flight is going to EDI. Dundee coverage is actually the responsibility of Border Force in Aberdeen, but officers from ABZ & EDI have been providing officers. Also staffing wise Border Force demands reduce at this time of the year as flights reduce at Edinburgh or indeed Glasgow. Border Force Officers are a mobile grade and can be deployed from any Scottish ports, as travel to Dundee is within a 10hr shift.
Fit like min?
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ...
Posts: 2,126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DND-AMS
re-routed 'until further notice'
Dundee to Amsterdam flights rerouted 'until further notice' - BBC News
Dundee to Amsterdam flights rerouted 'until further notice' - BBC News
I'm puzzled as to why neither airline nor airport can give any clear reason (not just PR gobbledygook) for this rerouting / suspension. If there was a clear rationale then this might give potential customers some level of understanding and customers would have confidence to make bookings once the problem is resolved.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Edinburgh
Age: 39
Posts: 642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's what I don't understand. They have been given £7 Million to run this and it was so popular they added another day to the operation. If Flybe won't commit to running it for whatever reason then perhaps another operator should be given the licence? Loganair could make it work using their Dornier?
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 18nm NE grice 28ft up
Posts: 1,129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm puzzled as to why neither airline nor airport can give any clear reason (not just PR gobbledygook) for this rerouting / suspension. If there was a clear rationale then this might give potential customers some level of understanding and customers would have confidence to make bookings once the problem is resolved.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Edinburgh
Age: 39
Posts: 642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How long will they keep spinning the "ongoing review of operations" line?
They committed to the DND-AMS route. They got they route development money for it. They took people's money on the agreement they would fly them from DND to AMS and back, not stick them on a bus to another airport an hour away. Many could have paid less and flown from EDI-AMS on easyJet or KLM, so for BE to do this is a scandal, especially if it's their own choice to not bother to fly the route.
I doubt it's a case of not bothering (what's in it for them?), but some issue that is stopping them flying - presumably something that either they or the airport operator should have spotted earlier, hence all the cloak and dagger stuff.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Midlands
Age: 60
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DND-AMS on D38
For interest, the funding mechanism used to support the flyBe DH8 operated DND-AMS is not transferrable between operators, even if for now it was operated as a BE service on Loganair metal (D38) as based at DND.
The mechanism is only applicable to the approved applicant so Loganair would not be the recipient of any government funding and cannot retrospectively apply for this, unless the scheme was re-launched given the relatively low take-up.
The other concern for Loganair is if the DND-STN PSO is not renewed given DND proximity to EDI for competing services, then there may not be a D38 based at DND.
Also given LC are down to 3 x D38 in the fleet, there is no spare and I do not think given the lack of PR-Nav, the SF3 which deputises and is the fleet mainstay can operate into AMS, thus adding risk to the operation, unless one of the two NWI based D38's always covers DND. It is notable that for a period in DEC & JAN NWI-EDI is being operated using an EDI based unit so may highlight future operations for LC given NWI-MAN is a feed for flyBe connecting services to a large part.
Given other LC announcements I suspect taking on the AMS on a D38 will not be on the priority list.
Hopefully for DND & the HIAL team, something is resolved quickly before confidence in the route is eroded beyond repair.
The mechanism is only applicable to the approved applicant so Loganair would not be the recipient of any government funding and cannot retrospectively apply for this, unless the scheme was re-launched given the relatively low take-up.
The other concern for Loganair is if the DND-STN PSO is not renewed given DND proximity to EDI for competing services, then there may not be a D38 based at DND.
Also given LC are down to 3 x D38 in the fleet, there is no spare and I do not think given the lack of PR-Nav, the SF3 which deputises and is the fleet mainstay can operate into AMS, thus adding risk to the operation, unless one of the two NWI based D38's always covers DND. It is notable that for a period in DEC & JAN NWI-EDI is being operated using an EDI based unit so may highlight future operations for LC given NWI-MAN is a feed for flyBe connecting services to a large part.
Given other LC announcements I suspect taking on the AMS on a D38 will not be on the priority list.
Hopefully for DND & the HIAL team, something is resolved quickly before confidence in the route is eroded beyond repair.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning
Age: 63
Posts: 513
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If Flybe won't be back and if LC can get the government funding reallocated to themselves, perhaps the AMS route could be flown by an E145 from their sister airline BMI Regional?
It'll be interesting to see whether closer operational cooperation between BMI Regional and Loganair results from the BE divorce.
It'll be interesting to see whether closer operational cooperation between BMI Regional and Loganair results from the BE divorce.
Last edited by Porrohman; 24th Nov 2016 at 01:10. Reason: Corrected BMI name
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: scotland
Posts: 760
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think there is will to keep the AMS operating in the area, and loads seemed to be quite good. Don't know if the ERJ145 can operate from Dundee, but if not maybe getting some ATR42's or even the ATR72 could be an option.
The government stump up money to develop the Amsterdam route and before the contract ends the route may disappear. I would be interested to know how the flight was being used i.e. inward tourists v/s out bound tourists and the actual number of business passengers . I often hear that flights like this generate "x" £m for the local economy and generate "y" thousand jobs but i fail to see how outbound tourism would do that?? Im not sure how long the subsidy for the Stantead route continues for but wonder if it can support itself once the subsidy runs out and as with the Amsterdam route whether the passengers are bringing wealth to the region ? All these subsidies on top of an airport loosing a substantial sum of money every year that will probably need some major refurb or upgrade some time soon. Given that perfectly good transport links are available a short bus ride away at Edinburgh, the question is, is this just a vanity project ?
bb
bb
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning
Age: 63
Posts: 513
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Goldeneye said;
The E145 should be able to operate DND-AMS with a full payload but would be unable to take off from DND at MTOW so flights further into Europe would be more of a challenge.
Does anyone know whether the E145 would have to follow the Cat B or the Cat C approach into runway 09 at DND? I have a feeling that the Q400 is Cat B but becomes Cat C during icing conditions as a result of the higher initial approach speed of 170kts in such conditions. I could be wrong though; to some extent it depends on an airline's SOP, not just the performance of the aircraft.
The Cat C approach into DND Runway 09 creates potential conflicts with air traffic at Scone. See; NATS | AIS - Home
I wonder whether the potential requirement to carry out a Cat C approach during icing conditions and the resultant potential conflict with traffic at Scone might have been a contributory factor for switching the AMS flight to EDI?
The ILS/DME approach to Runway 09 can be problematic. There are warnings for this in the approach charts. There is a also the potential for confusion between the nav aids used for the ILS/DME procedure on Runway 09. There is no ILS/DME approach chart on the NATS website for Runway 27 at DND.
Here are some quotes from the data provided on the NATS site;
A Beech Baron crashed into the Sidlaw Hills eighteen months ago as a result of flying a final approach profile using the DND NDB(L) instead of the DME I-DDE; https://assets.publishing.service.go...RICK_01-16.pdf
I think there is will to keep the AMS operating in the area, and loads seemed to be quite good. Don't know if the ERJ145 can operate from Dundee, but if not maybe getting some ATR42's or even the ATR72 could be an option.
Does anyone know whether the E145 would have to follow the Cat B or the Cat C approach into runway 09 at DND? I have a feeling that the Q400 is Cat B but becomes Cat C during icing conditions as a result of the higher initial approach speed of 170kts in such conditions. I could be wrong though; to some extent it depends on an airline's SOP, not just the performance of the aircraft.
The Cat C approach into DND Runway 09 creates potential conflicts with air traffic at Scone. See; NATS | AIS - Home
I wonder whether the potential requirement to carry out a Cat C approach during icing conditions and the resultant potential conflict with traffic at Scone might have been a contributory factor for switching the AMS flight to EDI?
The ILS/DME approach to Runway 09 can be problematic. There are warnings for this in the approach charts. There is a also the potential for confusion between the nav aids used for the ILS/DME procedure on Runway 09. There is no ILS/DME approach chart on the NATS website for Runway 27 at DND.
Here are some quotes from the data provided on the NATS site;
3° ILS Ref Datum Hgt 41 ft. Quality of GP guidance is not suitable for coupled approaches below 200ft. Due to terrain, LOC and GP flag alarms may be experienced at northern edge of coverage when below glidepath sector. Full scale fly-up indications may not be maintained when left of centre-line.
NDB(L) DND is 2.6NM from THR RWY 09 and is offset 230m north of LOC C/L
The Category C Instrument Approach Procedure infringes the Perth ATZ at 1800ft above Perth aerodrome elevation. Pilots must notify ATC of their intention to conduct a Category C approach on first contact. The eastern edge of the perth ATZ lies 9.5NM west of THR RWY 09. To prevent confliction with possible VFR traffic in the Perth ATZ, pilots should not extend the outbound leg of the base turn beyond the prescribed procedural distances.
The Procedure not available without DME I-DDE.
AFAIK, there is no direct bus service from Dundee to Edinburgh Airport. You either have to go into the city and take the airport bus/tram, or change at the Halbeath Park and Ride.
Either way, it's not going to be much under 2 hours.
Either way, it's not going to be much under 2 hours.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: SW Scotland
Age: 40
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If Flybe won't be back and if LC can get the government funding reallocated to themselves, perhaps the AMS route could be flown by an E145 from their sister airline BMI Regional?
It'll be interesting to see whether closer operational cooperation between BMI Regional and Loganair results from the BE divorce.
It'll be interesting to see whether closer operational cooperation between BMI Regional and Loganair results from the BE divorce.