HEATHROW
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Makes you wonder what exactly ?
O'Hare is a US domestic Hub and Spoke airport with a bazillion regional jets servicing many small cities and towns in a country the size of the EU with dire rail networks in main.
The US3 invented and promoted the idea of Hub and Spoke as a commercial network alternative what Europe uses rail for.
As a wider Global Hub many indeed most US airports are way behind the volumes passing through European Airports and much of that traffic is indeed tied to their domestic hub and spoke networks.
Heathrow and indeed most European airports (Amsterdam excepted) do not have anywhere near a similar model.
Heathrow remains predominantly high yield point to point you do know this !
The largest carrier BA and partners in IAG and One World handle about 30% of over hub transfer traffic much being US-EU or US-Sub continent this is a magnitude different and therefore doesn't need quite so many strips of concrete.
O'Hare is a US domestic Hub and Spoke airport with a bazillion regional jets servicing many small cities and towns in a country the size of the EU with dire rail networks in main.
The US3 invented and promoted the idea of Hub and Spoke as a commercial network alternative what Europe uses rail for.
As a wider Global Hub many indeed most US airports are way behind the volumes passing through European Airports and much of that traffic is indeed tied to their domestic hub and spoke networks.
Heathrow and indeed most European airports (Amsterdam excepted) do not have anywhere near a similar model.
Heathrow remains predominantly high yield point to point you do know this !
The largest carrier BA and partners in IAG and One World handle about 30% of over hub transfer traffic much being US-EU or US-Sub continent this is a magnitude different and therefore doesn't need quite so many strips of concrete.
Heathrow remains predominantly high yield point to point you do know this !
In the same vein most passengers on the YVR - LHR were connecting on to India - Namascar- and large numbers of Scandinavians of LHR - GIG/GRU
Thus I contend LHR is exactly a hub and spoke airport like ORD.
Having more hours than I care to remember Paxing all over the place from LHR I agree with ETOPS on the issue that there is a huge amount of interline traffic at LHR. If there is less now than there was it is entirely because the capacity is limited in terms of runway slots and thus more flights.
Also while LHR has a very strong premium element the cachement area includes some of the countries most affluent areas and there is still huge demand for Y class travel. Firstly from the London area itself as none of the other airports offer anything remotely comparable for LH and all those BA card holders do have holidays and they along with all of west London N Surrey and East Berks want to fly Y from LHR and not travel 100 miles to STN however cheap Ryan air are. Equally Gatwick isn't exactly easy given that most of the journey is M25
LHR isn't ORD though because that place does have zillions of RJs and TPs serving a huge cachement area around Chicago and the upper mid west as well as being major hub and therefore it needs to separate traffic and run almost two airports inside one boundary hence all the runways.
So, LHR does need a third runway badly and building it at LGW would be almost criminal negligence on the part of the Govt. because it wont raise LGW status much and will ensure LHRs continued decline compared to AMS.CDG and FRA.
But then sadly decline is what we seem to do best in the UK with endless short term gain decisions either financial or political constantly winning out over long term strategy
Also while LHR has a very strong premium element the cachement area includes some of the countries most affluent areas and there is still huge demand for Y class travel. Firstly from the London area itself as none of the other airports offer anything remotely comparable for LH and all those BA card holders do have holidays and they along with all of west London N Surrey and East Berks want to fly Y from LHR and not travel 100 miles to STN however cheap Ryan air are. Equally Gatwick isn't exactly easy given that most of the journey is M25
LHR isn't ORD though because that place does have zillions of RJs and TPs serving a huge cachement area around Chicago and the upper mid west as well as being major hub and therefore it needs to separate traffic and run almost two airports inside one boundary hence all the runways.
So, LHR does need a third runway badly and building it at LGW would be almost criminal negligence on the part of the Govt. because it wont raise LGW status much and will ensure LHRs continued decline compared to AMS.CDG and FRA.
But then sadly decline is what we seem to do best in the UK with endless short term gain decisions either financial or political constantly winning out over long term strategy
ORD can only get those volumes into that runway layout using LAHSO. Over 60% of LHR's traffic is heavy/super. Can't see many 744/388 skippers accepting LAHSO clearances. In fact it specifically mentions in BA flightplans that they will not accept them.
Also while LHR has a very strong premium element the cachement area includes some of the countries most affluent areas and there is still huge demand for Y class travel.
After hunting high and low, looking at all carriers who fly to MLA from airports within 100 miles of where we live (West Berks), the cheapest was Air Malta from LHR!
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Salmond: SNP won?t back runway in South-East unless Scotland gets cash | Politics | News | London Evening Standard
Skip. Here is that unwavering and wholesome support from the SNP you referred to.
It would appear Scotland is prepared to back Heathrow but only on the basis of a nice wedge of cash.
Something the North of England should be fighting for with a tad more vigour !
On a theme could we not promote and indeed expand Manchester in exactly the same manner the Germans did with Munich or is that too complicated for us Brits?
Skip. Here is that unwavering and wholesome support from the SNP you referred to.
It would appear Scotland is prepared to back Heathrow but only on the basis of a nice wedge of cash.
Something the North of England should be fighting for with a tad more vigour !
On a theme could we not promote and indeed expand Manchester in exactly the same manner the Germans did with Munich or is that too complicated for us Brits?
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I disagree for the following reason. For over a quarter of a century I was a BA Capt flying from LHR. One of my favourite routes was LHR-PHX and I took a keen interest in the mix of passengers as a cursory glance at the passenger list showed, at times, very few UK passengers but generally full loads. On numerous occasions I was able to do my "Willkommen an Bord" in German as the majority were connecting from a variety of start points such as FRA, DUS, MUC etc. In the same vein most passengers on the YVR - LHR were connecting on to India - Namascar- and large numbers of Scandinavians of LHR - GIG/GRU Thus I contend LHR is exactly a hub and spoke airport like ORD.
Is it just the factoid that Heathrow is predominantly an O & D operation - 60% and increasing of traffic is of such make up.
Now the figure quoted by David - with thanks does include interlines but not self connects so if those add a further 5-10% - It remains that most traffic is point to point or O and D or I concede perhaps connecting elsewhere - Dubai for instance.
Contrary to myth its not primarily a Hub and Spoke operation - The large US Hub and Spoke airports are quite the opposite with 60% plus being transfers (Mostly regional domestic in nature)
I do accept that for BA (IAG) by definition their Heathrow operations are designed with Hub and Spoke capabilities , however even BA would prefer more point to point traffic starting/terminating at Heathrow than feeders for the bottom line !
Yield from those fares are far superior than any from for say FCO-LHR-JFK.
That EU sector will almost certainly book a loss !
Now is Heathrow a Hub airport (as opposed to a Hub and Spoke operation) the pendent in me says yes yet whilst similar the two terms are not necessarily the same thing.
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Heathrow remains predominantly high yield point to point you do know this !
Skip. Here is that unwavering and wholesome support from the SNP you referred to.
Something the North of England should be fighting for with a tad more vigour !
"Not having more jobs in the horrid polluting SE of England" and also "Ooooh big A380 from Dubai shoing "faith in Manchester as a region" #facepalm
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As a case in point I'm travelling with my family of 4 for a week's break in Malta, the week after next. After hunting high and low, looking at all carriers who fly to MLA from airports within 100 miles of where we live (West Berks), the cheapest was Air Malta from LHR!
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Many of the point to point routes need the feed to survive though.
Skip-
Really ??
London as you know is in the top 3 of Global Cities with both inward and outward travel both business and leisure.
Its always said on here and in other flavours and colours that the consensus is if you can't fill flights (and preferably make money) out of Heathrow give up.
I have yet to see the evidence that any particular route only operates because of feed yet the statement is almost rhetorical in nature.
True Heathrow as Hub (as opposed to Hub and Spoke operation) has a dynamic and that leads legacy and long haul carriers to congregate but it more complicated i think- Your own analysis must show this.
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according to the Times this morning the Govt aren't paying for any road or rail improvements for LHR expansion - the airport will have to pay..............
Another £ 6 Billion to find................
Another £ 6 Billion to find................
You cannot compare UK and Germany on this issue because of the distributed nature of the German economy (buggers got this right as well) London dwarfs all other UK cities and that isnt diluted if you add in the contiguous counties and areas . In Germany the main hub airport is Frankfurt and that is because it was the main US military base after WW2 Frankfurt is not a big city at all , Munich is much much bigger.
It would be like having East Midlands as the countries main airport just because its in the middle of the country and expanding Manchester as a number 2.
Where a comparison can be made is Paris which has CDG as the main hub -four runways and a viable and important airport in Orly .
The whole problem in the UK aside from the usual political cowardice and civil service indifference and incompetence is that you cannot divide hubs into two. You either expand LHR or build a new one once you split the load you go not from one hub to two but from one to none and for a city like London that just wont cut it.
That is obvious from the start and yet we have to suffer years of delay and dithering and even now interference from influential politicians like Zak and Boris who are basically chancers and cowboys solely focussed on what is good for them personally in their political careers.
It would be like having East Midlands as the countries main airport just because its in the middle of the country and expanding Manchester as a number 2.
Where a comparison can be made is Paris which has CDG as the main hub -four runways and a viable and important airport in Orly .
The whole problem in the UK aside from the usual political cowardice and civil service indifference and incompetence is that you cannot divide hubs into two. You either expand LHR or build a new one once you split the load you go not from one hub to two but from one to none and for a city like London that just wont cut it.
That is obvious from the start and yet we have to suffer years of delay and dithering and even now interference from influential politicians like Zak and Boris who are basically chancers and cowboys solely focussed on what is good for them personally in their political careers.
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Must be my imagination, your post 3763 suggests SNP support as a given !
Must confess when you mentioned this I never realised we had another potential invoice to cover.
At least that will evaporate if The Times is correct.
...not usually right and wrong again Skip !
Must be my imagination, your post 3763 suggests SNP support as a given !
Must confess when you mentioned this I never realised we had another potential invoice to cover.
At least that will evaporate if The Times is correct.
...not usually right and wrong again Skip !
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One thing that puzzles me is the support on the one hand for expansion of Heathrow and “The Hub”, but outright criticism on the other with reference to British Airways, who after all provide the “where with all” in terms of a significant part of the actual connectivity.
Clearly if hub is key, it seems odd to be so dismissive of the BA contribution.
If you support Heathrow expansion the most important plank of that is their connectivity to other UK points in their long haul network is it not.
It seems an odd contradiction.
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It’s equally odd that a country seeking independence and indeed could be independent by the time RW3 opens should be holding such sway regarding sovereign decisions made elsewhere ?
Yes they are in the Union now but still seems odd.
Clearly if hub is key, it seems odd to be so dismissive of the BA contribution.
If you support Heathrow expansion the most important plank of that is their connectivity to other UK points in their long haul network is it not.
It seems an odd contradiction.
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It’s equally odd that a country seeking independence and indeed could be independent by the time RW3 opens should be holding such sway regarding sovereign decisions made elsewhere ?
Yes they are in the Union now but still seems odd.
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the Vile Salmond wasn't just asking for cash - he wants a cast -iron guarantee of an increased connectivity to LHR from Scotland that will last for years or else he'll vote against
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Heathrow remains predominantly high yield point to point you do know this !
The largest carrier BA and partners in IAG and One World handle about 30% of over hub transfer traffic much being US-EU or US-Sub continent this is a magnitude different and therefore doesn't need quite so many strips of concrete.
The largest carrier BA and partners in IAG and One World handle about 30% of over hub transfer traffic much being US-EU or US-Sub continent this is a magnitude different and therefore doesn't need quite so many strips of concrete.
Not only Oneworld handling transfer pax, also Star and Skyteam, that's why their respective carriers are housed together: Oneworld in LHR-5 and LHR-3, Skyteam in LHR-4 and Star in LHR-2.
I disagree for the following reason. For over a quarter of a century I was a BA Capt flying from LHR. One of my favourite routes was LHR-PHX and I took a keen interest in the mix of passengers as a cursory glance at the passenger list showed, at times, very few UK passengers but generally full loads. On numerous occasions I was able to do my "Willkommen an Bord" in German as the majority were connecting from a variety of start points such as FRA, DUS, MUC etc.
In the same vein most passengers on the YVR - LHR were connecting on to India - Namascar- and large numbers of Scandinavians of LHR - GIG/GRU
Thus I contend LHR is exactly a hub and spoke airport like ORD.
In the same vein most passengers on the YVR - LHR were connecting on to India - Namascar- and large numbers of Scandinavians of LHR - GIG/GRU
Thus I contend LHR is exactly a hub and spoke airport like ORD.
Also while LHR has a very strong premium element the cachement area includes some of the countries most affluent areas and there is still huge demand for Y class travel. Firstly from the London area itself as none of the other airports offer anything remotely comparable for LH and all those BA card holders do have holidays and they along with all of west London N Surrey and East Berks want to fly Y from LHR and not travel 100 miles to STN however cheap Ryan air are. Equally Gatwick isn't exactly easy given that most of the journey is M25
o, LHR does need a third runway badly and building it at LGW would be almost criminal negligence on the part of the Govt. because it wont raise LGW status much and will ensure LHRs continued decline compared to AMS.CDG and FRA.
But then sadly decline is what we seem to do best in the UK with endless short term gain decisions either financial or political constantly winning out over long term strategy
On a theme could we not promote and indeed expand Manchester in exactly the same manner the Germans did with Munich or is that too complicated for us Brits?
You cannot compare UK and Germany on this issue because of the distributed nature of the German economy (buggers got this right as well) London dwarfs all other UK cities and that isnt diluted if you add in the contiguous counties and areas . In Germany the main hub airport is Frankfurt and that is because it was the main US military base after WW2 Frankfurt is not a big city at all , Munich is much much bigger.
It would be like having East Midlands as the countries main airport just because its in the middle of the country and expanding Manchester as a number 2.
Where a comparison can be made is Paris which has CDG as the main hub -four runways and a viable and important airport in Orly .
It would be like having East Midlands as the countries main airport just because its in the middle of the country and expanding Manchester as a number 2.
Where a comparison can be made is Paris which has CDG as the main hub -four runways and a viable and important airport in Orly .
So LHR 2 parallel rwys, CDG 4 parallel rwys; LGW 1 rwy, ORY 2 parallel rwys. Says it all.
If we're talking number 2 compare MAN with LYS not MUC, and it's a case of expanding LYS to be like MAN.
Berlin, Cologne, Dusseldorf, Hamburg and Munich are all bigger than Frankfurt. When the Federal Republic was set up in 1949, Frankfurt was planned as the capital, but it ended up at Bonn.
It’s equally odd that a country seeking independence and indeed could be independent by the time RW3 opens should be holding such sway regarding sovereign decisions made elsewhere ?
Yes they are in the Union now but still seems odd.
Yes they are in the Union now but still seems odd.
the Vile Salmond wasn't just asking for cash - he wants a cast -iron guarantee of an increased connectivity to LHR from Scotland that will last for years or else he'll vote against
It's sticking up for Scotland, or appearing to, something Labour conspicuously failed to do and suffered the consequences.
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Some routes need transfer pax to be viable for the O and D traffic, it's not that difficult a concept to understand. About 35% of LHR pax are connecting compared to about 75% at AMS. Not only Oneworld handling transfer pax, also Star and Skyteam, that's why their respective carriers are housed together: Oneworld in LHR-5 and LHR-3, Skyteam in LHR-4 and Star in LHR-2.
This is rhetoric - What is the real evidence especially through Heathrow and with relation to the London markets - One of the top 3 on the planet.
Again what are these LHR routes that survive ONLY because of connections.
Names please.
Again the fares on O & M SUBSIDiSE connects NOT the other way round !
The carriers are housed together (in the main) for alliance convenience not disputed.
I did not distribute that LHR is a HUB airport either and in the case of the ONLY HUB and SPOKE (similar words differing meaning) carrier i specifically mentioned the two largest market flows US- EU and US- Sub-continent.
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About 35% of LHR pax are connecting compared to about 75% at AMS.
Yes an airport with a million, billion little planes and concrete to match combined with a warehousing industry developed over centuries to serve those boxes right across Northern Europe , oh and the fresh food and flowers businesses.
The Dutch and West Germans still make things (Tangible physical items as opposed to etherial products and financial services- Don't get me wrong these are money makers for the few) don't they !