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Old 13th Oct 2015, 08:19
  #3761 (permalink)  
 
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Is it a car park? The first image looks like an open area but the second looks like it's covered. Can't see an access road so maybe airside vehicle parking?
Looks like a solar farm to me...
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 09:34
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Labour has now done an about turn......and crucially he expects all Labour MPs to oppose!
Loyal Tories + Ulster + SNP + pro trade Labour beats Tory Greens and Corbynista Labour I think. Bagos why are you seo keen to talk this project down? It will make almost zero impact either way on volumes out of MAN.
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 11:10
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Is it a car park? The first image looks like an open area but the second looks like it's covered. Can't see an access road so maybe airside vehicle parking?
It's staff car parking. All the staff/crew current parking (N1-N5) will make way for R3. I assume tunnels under the taxi ways?
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 11:15
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This is from ch-aviation:

As Addis Ababa Bole International Airport's altitude of 2,334m curtails aircraft performance, Ethiopian authorities are considering locations for the new airport that are both accessible to Addis Ababa as well as situated on lower ground. A decision will be taken before work on the USD2.5 billion facility gets under way early next year. An opening date has been set for sometime in 2018.

Quite quick, quite cheap!
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 12:59
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Originally Posted by FlyingEagle21
I assume tunnels under the taxi ways?
Wot I said.

Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
via a tunnel under them from the T5/T6 complex.
If you imagine Links 56/57 extended westwards, the access road would go underneath them.
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 13:59
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It will make almost zero impact either way on volumes out of MAN.
You just can't help yourself can you, Skipness? Your risible attempts to depict all PPRuNe objectors to LHR R3 as MAN reggie-collectors has been exposed as lies time and again. Nobody is taken in and you are making a complete fool of yourself. Bagso and myself have consistently argued against R3 on the grounds of cost. Our posting histories confirm this. There is a serious case to answer. Argue the issues on that level if you can and spare us all the childish innuendos.

+ pro trade Labour beats Tory Greens
And what about 'pro-trade' politicians both Labour and Conservative who can use a calculator? Value-for-money does matter.
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 16:27
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Skip

I have long argued that Heathrow requires a root and branch evaluation of cost. At no point have ANY of our English MPs discussed the taxpayer exposure or implications that is why it is a source of frustration, the real story is yet to come out.

Labour have completely side stepped this and focused on air quality , The SNP however have clocked that £5bn exposure so I would not be so sure they will support this. Only last month they noted it was a another slug of cash heading into the SE.

The posting from the Independent is I'm sure of interest to those both for and indeed against. I would have posted exactly the same reference had Labour been initially against and had changed to yes vote.

It's of interest whatever the outcome, as an aviation analyst surely it is something you would be mindful of.

In addition if LHR gets its 3rw there may possibly be cuts on service at other airports in order that the UK meets UK wide emissions, well sorry that is not something I agree with. Each airport needs to get its own house in order. In that respect with "continous descent" procedures Manchester is ahead of the game with 89% of landings accomplished this way. Not sure what the figure is for LHR but MAN should not be penalised based on what happens 200 miles away !

The fact you don't like the end result of this change of heart is of supreme indifference. Others will have an opinion on the implications of this.

The article did suggest that such is the retinence of Tory Backbenchers, the PM would be relying on the support of Labour ! That is now unlikely with previous labour pro RW3 MPs unwilling to vote against Corbyn at least not on what many perceive as a minor issue ie Aviation

Last edited by Bagso; 13th Oct 2015 at 17:22.
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 22:25
  #3768 (permalink)  
 
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You just can't help yourself can you, Skipness? Your risible attempts to depict all PPRuNe objectors to LHR R3 as MAN reggie-collectors has been exposed as lies time and again
Calm down, at no point did I suggest you're a reggie collector. As it happens I am also one myself, the industry is also full of #avgeeks .I wouldn't dare compare your esteemed self to a mere eccentric like myself.
Actually, we're going round in circles now, there's nothing new to add at the mo.
Bagso and myself have consistently argued against R3 on the grounds of cost. Our posting histories confirm this. There is a serious case to answer. Argue the issues on that level if you can and spare us all the childish innuendos.
One can make a good case on cost benefit for many things, good lawyers can argue any case given some half credible numbers. You don't think it's worth it, you think they should spend more money on trains in the North, maybe they should. All major infrastructure projects are ball crunchingly expensive. The Chunnel, Sizewell B, etc etc, however we never turn around afterwards and say "By God that was so expensive we shouldn't have done it." Well maybe the Olympics. This is like the Olympics now, it's becoming about driving growth, jobs and investment, inward tourism and boosting construction. It's a matter of politics and belief, the bill will be high but I think reality is setting in across both Labour and the Tories. Let's see what happens in December.
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 22:31
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You mean something IS going to happen in December ?! Surely not; that would be a first !
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 23:50
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a reggie collector. As it happens I am also one myself, the industry is also full of #avgeeks
My comments imply no attack on aviation hobbyists. I take aircraft photos myself and regularly defend enthusiasts on this forum. I know that many of the finest minds in the industry were drawn in thanks to a healthy interest in aircraft. Some of the best I ever worked alongside still do collect registrations. However, it is important to draw the line between a hobby and a serious debate. Those who have engaged in objecting to R3 on PPRuNe have done so on the issues. It is disingenuous to drop regular hints that their true motivation is a desire to see more tails at their local airport. It demeans the integrity of the whole discussion and invites descent to the lowest common denominator. You are well capable of debating the core issues at a respectful and professional level. I urge you to stick with that.
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Old 14th Oct 2015, 09:11
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But Skip that is the point we are not going round in circles.

The main opposition who supported RW3 are now against and whilst many Labour MPs support expansion they are not going to appear to be devisive. This could have a major impact and was not widely reported, hence my link. ?

In other news...

The SNP conference starts today, Alex Salmond was scathing about what he saw as more billions being poured into SE. As an SNP grandee his voice is likely to resonate with SNP MPs.

Hence not sure why you suggest SNP 100% behind RW3.

Heathrow decision just latest example of UK Government?s London obsession - Alex Salmond / Politics / News / The Courier
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Old 14th Oct 2015, 09:24
  #3772 (permalink)  
 
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Here's an idea....

Take the average APD paid in LHR, multiply by number of passengers, add a third (to be conservative)

Take number of tonnes of fuel uplifted by airlines each year in LHR, do the same. Fuel normally runs at roughly 800 GBP a tonne, of which between 60 and 70% goes to the government on duty depending on country (68% here in Ireland I believe, not sure what yours is).

With those 2 numbers alone you should get SOME indication when you would all get your money back. Obviously it's not including growth in staff, growth in tourism, business etc but it's a start
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Old 14th Oct 2015, 11:20
  #3773 (permalink)  
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I am now repeating myself (many times over). R3 will not be built. No one has the cohonies to do it. Across the last 45 years, all politicians have failed on this point.
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Old 14th Oct 2015, 14:20
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and only the lawyers benifit.............
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Old 14th Oct 2015, 18:34
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This appears to have just been "sneaked" out.

Wonder how long it will be before it is picked up by mainstream media ?

Parliamentary Written Answer from Transport Minister published this evening.

"The surface access costs for Heathrow expansion are estimated at £5 billion by the Airports Commission, although Transport for London had put the predicted figure at £15-20 billion.

In response to a parliamentary question tabled by Conservative MP and prominent Third Runway opponent Adam Afriyie, Transport Minister Robert Goodwill said:

“In terms of surface access proposals, the Government has been clear that it expects the scheme promoter to meet the costs of any surface access proposals that are required as a direct result of airport expansion and from which they will directly benefit.”
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Old 14th Oct 2015, 22:05
  #3776 (permalink)  
 
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Labour has now done an about turn......and crucially he expects all Labour MPs to oppose!
It's the 1980s again, Conservatives enacting vindictive anti-trade union legislation and Labour tearing itself apart.

As the leader, Corbyn can expect the kind of loyalty from MPs that he showed to Kinnock, Smith, Blair, Brown, Miliband, etc. when a humble back-bencher. It appears to be a "poacher turned gamekeeper" situation, what goes round comes around, you reap what you sow.

Judging by the antics of Shadow Chancellor McDonnell, one could be forgiven for thinking that wheels are coming off already!



The SNP conference starts today, Alex Salmond was scathing about what he saw as more billions being poured into SE. As an SNP grandee his voice is likely to resonate with SNP MPs.


Hence not sure why you suggest SNP 100% behind RW3.
Not sure why you think that the SNP 100% against a third rwy.


Heathrow decision just latest example of UK Government?s London obsession - Alex Salmond / Politics / News / The Courier


In the article, Salmond is quoted as saying:

"...However, if new capacity is needed in London then at least Heathrow’s rival Gatwick have pledged they would build a new runway there at no cost to the public purse and guarantee proper access to the capital from Scottish airports..."

LGW managers cannot guarantee anything of the sort, to do so would fall foul of the all-powerful European Union.




This appears to have just been "sneaked" out.

Wonder how long it will be before it is picked up by mainstream media ?

Parliamentary Written Answer from Transport Minister published this evening.

"The surface access costs for Heathrow expansion are estimated at £5 billion by the Airports Commission, although Transport for London had put the predicted figure at £15-20 billion.
Transport for London is a tool of the anti-Heathrow expansion Boris, so it's natural that it would want to put his spin on things and inflate the figures.

Unfortunately, it looks like it has over-played its hand (four times more than the official estimate is frankly beyond credibility).

However, it has nothing to do with Transport for London or Boris.

The road and motorway enhancements, etc., are the responsibility of the Dept of Transport/Highways Agency, the railway enhancements that of the Dept of Transport/Network Rail.

In response to a parliamentary question tabled by Conservative MP and prominent Third Runway opponent Adam Afriyie, Transport Minister Robert Goodwill said:

“In terms of surface access proposals, the Government has been clear that it expects the scheme promoter to meet the costs of any surface access proposals that are required as a direct result of airport expansion and from which they will directly benefit.”
There, you have your answer..........................

Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 14th Oct 2015 at 23:53.
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Old 15th Oct 2015, 10:57
  #3777 (permalink)  
 
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Great, can we please just get on and build it now?
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Old 15th Oct 2015, 11:03
  #3778 (permalink)  
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Robert Goodwill said:

“... the scheme promoter to meet the costs of any surface access proposals that are required as a direct result of airport expansion and from which they will directly benefit.”
The price of everything and the value of nothing (as above) just like the 1980s.

One has a distinct suspicion that the expansion of CDG, AMS, FRA, MUC benefit more than just local jobs ...
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Old 15th Oct 2015, 12:37
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In the last few days it was announced the NHS lost £1B in the first quarter, so projecting that for 2015 that amounts to £4B. So if you just take a mid point cost of the surface transport provision for R3 then that's 3yrs of NHS overspend
Clearly the 60M people in the UK will not care a fig for LHR expansion if they can't get their health needs met
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Old 15th Oct 2015, 15:39
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"four times more than the official estimate is frankly beyond credibility)"

and how many large public investments come in on cost Frank?

Olympics
Scottish Parliament
British Library
Guy's House
Portcullis House
Channel Tunnel
HS2
Crossrail
Jubilee Line extension

I know which way the bookies would bet..................
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