DUBLIN

[dublinaviator]

irish laddie no offence, but its that kind of short-term thinking thats held back so much of Ireland's infrastructure. Your arguement that a longer runway can't be justified because it would only attract 1,000 new PAX a week but would have to be paid for by the other 40-50k PAX is ridiculous. Going by that logic, why even bother expanding any of the country's transport infrastructure?

Like Just a Spotter says, we need a longer runway, and if this Air India rumour results in anything, it should be to highlight just how much Dublin's short runway is holding it back from securing new long-haul flights to the likes of Asia, the Middle East and Africa.

Dublin Airport has the potential with this new terminal and CBP facility to become a big European hub for connections, but that will never happen unless the current runway is extended. If anything we'd actually lose more money by not extending it given how much has been invested in the new terminal which will always be held back from reaching it's full capacity, and therefore giving a return on the government's investment, by the runway restrictions.

[Skipness One Echo]

Air India

Can you all step back a minute and realise that you're getting excited about a possible hub, with AIR INDIA. The airlines that often arrives a day late and then changes schedules at a moments notice. The same AIR INDIA that is pimping it's new fleet of B777s to any airline that might take them off their hands?

The solution to Dublin's growth strategy isn't going to be an international superhub from one of the world's least reliable carriers. Read the thread on the Air India Express accident if you doubt that.

Does the Irish economy have enough cash to splurge out on extending the main runway at DUB and get payback within a generation? Given that the gransiose expansion of the terminal may be a while getting paid off, it seems madness. I know you have to speculate to accumulate but for the love of God, AIR INDIA !?!?!? In the current climate, no one in their right mind will, or ought to back this with their own money. Which leaves the taxpayer of course(!)

[irish laddie]

irish laddie no offence, but its that kind of short-term thinking thats held back so much of Ireland's infrastructure. Your arguement that a longer runway can't be justified because it would only attract 1,000 new PAX a week but would have to be paid for by the other 40-50k PAX is ridiculous. Going by that logic, why even bother expanding any of the country's transport infrastructure?

I'm not sure if its short term thinking or common sense. Lets just say I built a new house with a huge mortgage but I'm now struggling to find tenants, I'm not going to spend more on sticking a conservatory on the back! By all means when they can demonstrate that their core business is back on track then start looking at runway extensions, but to do it at the current time is just imprudent in my view. If it went ahead it will just probably lead to higher fees with the resulting backlash from current operators. So you might have your Indian transiting 777, but at the expense of more based aircraft and thousands of short haul pax daily.

Dublin Airport has the potential with this new terminal and CBP facility to become a big European hub for connections, but that will never happen unless the current runway is extended. If anything we'd actually lose more money by not extending it given how much has been invested in the new terminal which will always be held back from reaching it's full capacity, and therefore giving a return on the government's investment, by the runway restrictions.

The new terminal could be used to somewhere approaching capacity if the current operators are suitably approached.

Does the Irish economy have enough cash to splurge out on extending the main runway at DUB and get payback within a generation? Given that the gransiose expansion of the terminal may be a while getting paid off, it seems madness. I know you have to speculate to accumulate but for the love of God, AIR INDIA !?!?!? In the current climate, no one in their right mind will, or ought to back this with their own money. Which leaves the taxpayer of course(!)

Exactly

[Tom the Tenor]

Dublin needs a longer runway? Cork needs a longer runway too, then! Lagos once or twice a week in the summer a banker and I am not taking the P!55! Istanbul twice a week if not Dubai or Abu Dhabi to connect to the Far East.

The short runway issues all come back to the smoking gun - Shannon and the political patronage it enjoyed for decades from various political administrations. What wreckage that has caused - we are still seeing it today and everyday. As for Dublin's new terminal? More prison space is needed and T2 would come in handy!

[blaggerman]

Originally Posted by dublinaviator

Dublin Airport has the potential with this new terminal and CBP facility to become a big European hub for connections

Please kindly explain what advantage this new CBP facility offers to a hub operation.

[Seljuk22]

Traffic down by 32% in April to 1.190 Mln passengers.
Almost 1.2 million passengers travelled through Dublin Airport in April

[840]

Tom -> There are still a depressingly large number of issues when it comes to aviation infrastructure in Ireland. However, Dublin getting a second, longer runway is probably the number 1 that needs to be addressed. After that, an extension to Cork's existing runway, with parallel taxiways and more apron space is probably next. While both airports have had welcome new terminals, the airfield facilities have not kept pace. Unfortunately, for as long as we treat aviation as something where a minister can announce a small upgrade for the local airport and buy a few votes as opposed to something where we have a national strategy, that will always be the way.

Seljuk22 -> Considering the number of flights cancelled because of volcanic ash, that doesn't sound the worst. Maybe a drop of just under 10% if we factor that out.

[Ireland105]

"Given that the gransiose expansion of the terminal may be a while getting paid off, it seems madness. I know you have to speculate to accumulate but for the love of God, AIR INDIA !?!?!? "


My god, have you ever heard the phrase "dont bite the hand that feeds you" ? Ireland is on its knees at the moment and this will not change in the short term. We need anything we can get. ANYTHING. Would a 3rd world african country refuse AI ? not a chance. Should we ? NO.

Ireland needs to keenly wake up and realise that it is not in a position to piss about, it must take anything that comes its way. The country is an absolute mess, another Greece on its way in this "2nd recession" that is receiving much publicity in countries outside of europe only of course !

[Sober Lark]

In 89 they built 10/28 short and they'd have done the same with 10L/28R - it wasn't future proofed either.

Its only one topical example but it illustrates clearly the trouble bad airport management can get you into. It is as if they don't seem to realise the components of a development strategy are all interrelated - even down to getting on with O'Leary.

Looking at DUB it is obvious that management cannot be following any business oriented strategy. Forever playing catch up. Forever DAA.

[positive]

The Aer Rianta company had plans many years ago to extend the existing runway by I think either 300 or 400 Mts at the terminal end the details were on their summer timetable I can't remember what year it was.

This project got shelved when talk of the new runway started,I'm not sure how it might fit in now with T2 and a proposed Pier F also in the current plans.

The Fingal master plan had protection for extending the runway at both ends,there is close to 980 meters between the end of the runway and the roadway at the opposite end to the terminal so it might make more sense to look at that end if they do decide to extend the present runway.

[dublinaviator]

Originally Posted by blaggerman

Please kindly explain what advantage this new CBP facility offers to a hub operation.

You can go through US CBP in Dublin, saving you the hassle of having to do it in America where queues can often leave you standing for an hour. Something Aer Lingus and other airlines can use to attract new connecting traffic through Dublin.

Originally Posted by irishladdie

I'm not sure if its short term thinking or common sense. Lets just say I built a new house with a huge mortgage but I'm now struggling to find tenants, I'm not going to spend more on sticking a conservatory on the back! By all means when they can demonstrate that their core business is back on track then start looking at runway extensions, but to do it at the current time is just imprudent in my view. If it went ahead it will just probably lead to higher fees with the resulting backlash from current operators. So you might have your Indian transiting 777, but at the expense of more based aircraft and thousands of short haul pax daily.

Thats a fair enough point, but you could also argue you don't build roads with the assumption you'll get your investment back, so why build runways with that logic? Infrastructure itself isn't something that makes any money, its just something that facilitates the trade of third party operators. Look at rail for example, we're pumping billions into new rail infrastructure and it'll be decades before and if it ever gives a return on the government's investment, but that new infrastructure is allowing Iarnród Éireann to expand and allowing more people to use rail. Take the DART and LUAS as examples, they still haven't paid for themselves, but the new infrastructure has allowed them to increase their passenger throughput and turn a profit. Getting back to aviation, look at what the Spanish are doing as well, they're guaranteeing zero charges on airlines if they can sustain 2007 traffic levels, something AENA can't directly afford, and which is the only reason why Ryanair has expanded so much into Spain. But indirectly it brings in more money because airlines expand, which brings in more tourism, which gives a boost to the economy.

Originally Posted by irishladdie

The new terminal could be used to somewhere approaching capacity if the current operators are suitably approached.

I agree current carriers should be approached with more favourable terms like what Spain has done, but I don't think you can/should rely solely on Aer Lingus and Ryanair doubling their capacity through Dublin(as you suggest), particularly when Ryanair refuses to use T2 and would still refuse to use it if the DAA dropped charges altogether. The DAA needs to attract new carriers, and the CBP is something that again could be a huge advantage in being able to attract new long-haul carriers, but the runway length problem outweights any advantages CBP brings.

[blaggerman]

Originally Posted by dublinaviator

You can go through US CBP in Dublin, saving you the hassle of having to do it in America where queues can often leave you standing for an hour. Something Aer Lingus and other airlines can use to attract new connecting traffic through Dublin.

My question was about the new facility. I can't see how having customs adds any benefits to the connecting passenger or carrier. In fact it adds hassle, since bags can't simply be transferred but need to be taken to CBP for clearance.

[dublindispatch]

Typical Irish solution to an Irish peoblem, build a state of the art airport with all the bells an whistles and forget to build a runway that can handle modren airliners and the routes to go with them. Well done Ireland PLC.

Just for you areosexuals reading this and saves me time wikkiing the question, what ranking in Europe is Dublin in terms of runway length visa vee the size aircraft using it?

Would be so cynical to say that dark forces in an unnamed airline whose a/c are painted various shades of green may have "got to" various transport ministers over the years regarding the runway status?.

[Sober Lark]

When they looked at 10/28 they didn't look at new markets they looked at the markets they currently served and tried to anticipate the future level of demand using the same aircraft type.

Unfortunately they only looked at 10/28 in terms of capacity. They found it was similar to Gatwick and Stansted but regrettably they didn't even consider aircraft type or requirements regarding length to open up new markets.

They nearly got a new parallel runway out of it so how could extending 10/28 have ever really been on the cards?

[dublinaviator]

Originally Posted by blaggerman

Originally Posted by dublinaviator

You can go through US CBP in Dublin, saving you the hassle of having to do it in America where queues can often leave you standing for an hour. Something Aer Lingus and other airlines can use to attract new connecting traffic through Dublin.

My question was about the new facility. I can't see how having customs adds any benefits to the connecting passenger or carrier. In fact it adds hassle, since bags can't simply be transferred but need to be taken to CBP for clearance.

What are you not getting? Using CBP in Dublin saves you TIME, and to any business passenger, time is money, and to any leisure passenger its about convenience. Like I said theres times where you can be standing in a queue for an hour in JFK, saving 45mins by using CBP in Dublin can only be a plus.

[blaggerman]

Originally Posted by dublinaviator

What are you not getting? Using CBP in Dublin saves you TIME, and to any business passenger, time is money, and to any leisure passenger its about convenience. Like I said theres times where you can be standing in a queue for an hour in JFK, saving 45mins by using CBP in Dublin can only be a plus.

Immigration preclearance saves time. Customs preclearance saves no time (it will actually add at least an hour to the min connection time in DUB) unless the passenger is connecting to another flight in the US. I can't imagine too many passengers connecting in DUB and again in the US.

[akerosid]

AF to end all-cargo services:

Le Figaro - Sociétés : Air France prépare l'abandon de l'avion-cargo

This means an end to AF's current weekly service through DUB, now operated by a 744F. The route was operated by AF's 772LRFs for a short time, although only two were ever delivered and these are soon to return to the lessor, no doubt joining the other three at Fedex:

JetPhotos.Net Photo » F-GUOC (CN: 32966) Air France Cargo Boeing 777-F28 by John Fitzpatrick

On the subject of cargo, this is an area which the DAA never seems to have much of an interest in and given that exports will - as with the previous recession - lead the economic recovery, it would seem that there should be some investment by the DAA in air cargo facilities. Not a cent of the $1b of DAA's capital spending plan has gone into this. If the DAA has no interest, surely a tender could be put out for other operators to open a facility at DUB. I understand that the DAA has set aside some land for a future cargo facility.

If this could be sold to a new operator, perhaps the proceeds could be used to extend 10/28? With traffic volumes falling, the economic case for a second runway has been undermined (although there will ultimately be a need for this), but a longer runway would be of particular interest to cargo operators.

[EIPCW]

Air France Cargo

And thats another carrier gone!

[EI Premier]

On the subject of cargo, this is an area which the DAA never seems to have much of an interest in and given that exports will - as with the previous recession - lead the economic recovery, it would seem that there should be some investment by the DAA in air cargo facilities.

Very much agree with your sentiments on this point Akerosid - the folly of Irish government policy in failing to provide any assistance at all to the airlines after the recent ash crisis highlights the complete lack of respect for the hugely important role that the airlines play in underpinning and supporting Irish exports, both on a tangible and commercial basis.

However, we also need to remember that only a very small percentage or proportion of annual exports are carried by air traffic out of the country. Any main form of durables are taken over land and subsequently via ferry. That may be one of the reasons that the DAA don't show a huge interest in this regard. Perishables and perishable pharmaceutical products are the main products that are exported via air, with some other less common exceptions also.

However, as you say, airlines are vitally important to the Irish export economy.

Regards,

EI Premier

[dublinaviator]

Originally Posted by blaggerman

Immigration preclearance saves time. Customs preclearance saves no time (it will actually add at least an hour to the min connection time in DUB) unless the passenger is connecting to another flight in the US. I can't imagine too many passengers connecting in DUB and again in the US.

I read a review from someone on the first BA flight between London City and New Nork via Shannon, and they said it knocked off 15 minutes from the usual Heathrow-JFK trip. The fact that the government went out of their way in arranging so many meetings with US senators and representatives to come to an agreement on CBP speaks for itself. As thick as our government is, why would they spend millions on putting full CBP in place for Dublin and Shannon if it has no benefits and adds at least an hour onto the journey as you claim? Sorry but what you're saying makes no sense...