LONDON CITY
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london city
With the increased traffic at LCY it now seems that LCY atc are requesting other london sectors to put delaying action on inbound traffic i.e. speed reductions many miles out(>60), long detours round the south east, holds etc,. I heard tha a scot airways Do328 was zapped the other last night whilst being routed around until ramp space became available. It's one thing to have to burn more fuel, everyone has to join a queue but when a/c are damaged whilst beig held off because lcy like the revenue that seems a tad wrong. Surely this must indicate a need for more ramp space or less inbound traffic!!!
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I believe the 328 was struck by lightning as LATCC wouldn't release departures due weather delays and there was no more ramp space..... It was all very silly, the lady in the tower was awful and that IS my honest opinion.
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Of course Skipness, you were there, weren't you? I mean you had to be for you to make such an accusation. So that being the case, why do you only 'believe' LTCC wouldn't release the deps due weather?
Can you please amplify on your honest opinion?
Can you please amplify on your honest opinion?
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As for witholding releases, it wasn't easy when you got conflicting responses from Thames radar and the flow control / traffic manager. One saying there were no delays, the other saying MDIs of 5 mins and then us having to get in the queue for EGSS EGGW and EGMC deps !!!!!!!!!!
You'd start an a/c being told " Yes, we'll get him away " only to be told he can then expect 10-15min delay when it's put on request, this a/c in particular was fuel critical. One flight even had to be shut down to be re-fuelled because it waited so long.........
There was no ramp space, and up to 4/5 were holding along the taxiway and with LCY's money-orientated scheduling things can only get better ;-)
Bring on the winter schedule !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You'd start an a/c being told " Yes, we'll get him away " only to be told he can then expect 10-15min delay when it's put on request, this a/c in particular was fuel critical. One flight even had to be shut down to be re-fuelled because it waited so long.........
There was no ramp space, and up to 4/5 were holding along the taxiway and with LCY's money-orientated scheduling things can only get better ;-)
Bring on the winter schedule !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Yes, I am sorry, I must have misread it. That's what I get for posting after getting in from a night shift. Apologies to Skipness. Thank you Oshkosh for pointing that out. However, I still do think there's an explanation needed. The post seems to imply that a lightning strike was City Tower's fault. I bet, as Crusty says, they physically couldn't fit another a/c on the airfield.
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Developments on the BRN route
Just for the record, a link to the old thread...
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=164097
...and a quick recap of the most recent developments:
- VLM to start its 9th destination from LCY, a five times weekly serviceto IOM. As it is at the expense of the SOU-BRU route that will be handed over to Eastern, it leaves VLM Airlines with only one route not originating at LCY (RTM-HAM). What is a bit surprising is that VLM Airlines will have two routes (JER and IOM) on which the aircraft will sit idle at the outbound destination for many hours of the day.
- VLM to add a 6th daily flight on the BRU route.
- Darwin's Berne route will go up to twice daily with effect winter schedule. My understanding is that the service will be operated on behalf of Darwin Airlines by Skywork with a Dornier 328-110 instead of the Saab 2000 currently used by Darwin. Lugano will be served inbound in the mornings and outbound on the evenings.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=164097
...and a quick recap of the most recent developments:
- VLM to start its 9th destination from LCY, a five times weekly serviceto IOM. As it is at the expense of the SOU-BRU route that will be handed over to Eastern, it leaves VLM Airlines with only one route not originating at LCY (RTM-HAM). What is a bit surprising is that VLM Airlines will have two routes (JER and IOM) on which the aircraft will sit idle at the outbound destination for many hours of the day.
- VLM to add a 6th daily flight on the BRU route.
- Darwin's Berne route will go up to twice daily with effect winter schedule. My understanding is that the service will be operated on behalf of Darwin Airlines by Skywork with a Dornier 328-110 instead of the Saab 2000 currently used by Darwin. Lugano will be served inbound in the mornings and outbound on the evenings.
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My point was that the lady in the Tower isn't the best. yes I was there. I was also there two days later when a VLM Fokker 50 had to execute a go around and when challenged for a reason by annoyed said lady, the reply was "because you haven't cleared us to land ma'am." Oops! It is the little things and I admit it doesn't help when there is no taxiway and your ramp is the size of a postage stamp.
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Gosh. If possibly being forgetful once means one is awful, there must be a lot of awful pilots and ATCOs out there. I once forgot to clear someone to land. She might not have forgot to give a landing clearance: I've had more than a handful of pilot-initiated go-arounds because I hadn't cleared an a/c to land. I was going to, but the crew obviously thought they'd rather go around, I know a few of them were on a line-check and had reached DH.
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Skipness One Echo, the 'said lady' you are referring to on those two occasions are in fact two different controllers. Maybe the bright lights of the city confused you!
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LCY delays
the scot dornier WAS struck by lightning, this of course was not the fault of LCY atc, however the delaying action put on the inbound traffic - due to ramp congestion left LATCC no option but to route lcy traffic all round the sky. Being an infrequent user of LCY I have always found the tower extremely helpful, I tend to think that they are forced into the situation of delaying inbounds because the airport management don't want to turn away revenue. When it gets to the situation of being forced to hold off in crap conditions so that the airport owners can line their pockets then surely the flags are up to say that they have reached or exceeded capacity. Maybe LCY as a goodwill gesture will offer to reimburse operators for all damage, lost revenue, etc. P.S. I also believe inthe tooth fairy,santa claus and that the meek shall inherit.......etc
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Can I apologise for being a bit harsh earlier. The more I see of London City the more I understand just how demanding the place is for ATC. Where alse could you see an ANA 747-400 loom out of the clouds in the overhead leading 4 landing lights from a jet black cloud at about 3000ft ( you could read the titles with the naked eye) whilst you had traffic on approach on a runway at 90 degrees to the Heathrow inbounds.
The ATC is spot on. It bloody well has to be!!
(I'm scared)
The ATC is spot on. It bloody well has to be!!
(I'm scared)
so that the airport owners can line their pockets
For certainly the first 10 years it was money out of the door every year.
Now things have picked up, but only really in the morning and evening peaks. Look in at 11 am and there is hardly anyone in the terminal, and the few aircraft on the ramp have minimal loads.
Yes it's all a rush weekday mornings and evenings, and more operators might wish to come in, but only at this time. Saturdays are sad in the morning, then it is closed for 24 hours. The only scope for ramp expansion is to the east of the terminal building. This will involve filling in the end of the KGV dock, an engineering solution which I can assure you (because I do them) does not come cheap. And this is for a gate which will only be required 10 times a week.
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MM...It is an amazing place. I think any more stands or taxiway that are added to it will take away from the magic of it. It is fun to see it operate at the limit, especially when you see the skills of some of the pilots that make the whole thing work (Flying backwards up the ILS; Expediting down the runway, etc). The odd GA is inevitable, but this is just part of life at somewhere that operates at such a limit aT Peak times. I will miSS the place, but if it gets too bad, I can always switch the flight SIM ON and visit it that way! Sad I know....
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I can't comment on this case - but I am interested in your comments
1. When you say the D328 had to route around the SE of England - do you mean it initially flew the whole STAR via SPEAR for a change - and not being given a short cut through LAM? (A LAM release often causes a much busier workload to Thames - and the TMA NE on 118.82 sometimes have to work incredibly hard to get you down to 4000ft by LAM.
2. Please do not have a go at ATC. It is nothing to do with Thames Radar or LCY Tower. The fact that there are no stands must mean that either the allocation plan is flawed, or someone went u/s on stand.
3. There are plenty of airfields to divert to if the weather is that bad.
4. It is only going to get busier - as Thames is expected to work all the Southend inbounds/outbounds from Southend (probably using 4000ft to get them inside CAS)
5. Everything inbound is descending to ALKIN at 4000ft - from SPEAR/LAM/DET - and Thames have only 3000ft and 4000ft to play with (and an RMA that is tiny - and runs DET-BIG-LCY-DET approx)
6. All the CLN/DVR/SAM/LYD SID's climb to 4000ft.
7. Biggin Hill is getting busier and they use the same levels.
8. I have NEVER seen any airline crews to Thames Radar. (I managed to get LCY to pull a few strings to get me on a Fam flight earlier in the year with VLM who are great!)
Why not come and visit - and you will see just how crowded the airspace is. The safest place for a departure when the sectors are overloaded and pilots want wx avoidance is on the ground. I appreciate that this doesn't help at LCY!
1. When you say the D328 had to route around the SE of England - do you mean it initially flew the whole STAR via SPEAR for a change - and not being given a short cut through LAM? (A LAM release often causes a much busier workload to Thames - and the TMA NE on 118.82 sometimes have to work incredibly hard to get you down to 4000ft by LAM.
2. Please do not have a go at ATC. It is nothing to do with Thames Radar or LCY Tower. The fact that there are no stands must mean that either the allocation plan is flawed, or someone went u/s on stand.
3. There are plenty of airfields to divert to if the weather is that bad.
4. It is only going to get busier - as Thames is expected to work all the Southend inbounds/outbounds from Southend (probably using 4000ft to get them inside CAS)
5. Everything inbound is descending to ALKIN at 4000ft - from SPEAR/LAM/DET - and Thames have only 3000ft and 4000ft to play with (and an RMA that is tiny - and runs DET-BIG-LCY-DET approx)
6. All the CLN/DVR/SAM/LYD SID's climb to 4000ft.
7. Biggin Hill is getting busier and they use the same levels.
8. I have NEVER seen any airline crews to Thames Radar. (I managed to get LCY to pull a few strings to get me on a Fam flight earlier in the year with VLM who are great!)
Why not come and visit - and you will see just how crowded the airspace is. The safest place for a departure when the sectors are overloaded and pilots want wx avoidance is on the ground. I appreciate that this doesn't help at LCY!