HUMBERSIDE
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Gee, thanks guys.
Wouldn't life be boring without loose cannons. What would Ryanair be without MOL, the Tories without Boris... etc.!!!
Seriously though, it looks like XL is going ahead as it is still on the web-site (would have been erased by now if in error, surely-or is the 'to err is human...' still present?
Cargo is an option, but the runway is surely the problem HUY can't take anything more than a laden 767 at the moment and to add on another half a klick of concrete would cost pot loads I would have thought. Just had my drive done and that was costly enough!!!
Agree with A-H about FlyBE, but has HUY got what it takes for them, did not FlyBE want Exeter to spend £millions upgrading facilities or something?
Wouldn't life be boring without loose cannons. What would Ryanair be without MOL, the Tories without Boris... etc.!!!
Seriously though, it looks like XL is going ahead as it is still on the web-site (would have been erased by now if in error, surely-or is the 'to err is human...' still present?
Cargo is an option, but the runway is surely the problem HUY can't take anything more than a laden 767 at the moment and to add on another half a klick of concrete would cost pot loads I would have thought. Just had my drive done and that was costly enough!!!
Agree with A-H about FlyBE, but has HUY got what it takes for them, did not FlyBE want Exeter to spend £millions upgrading facilities or something?
niknak
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I'm amazed that you haven't latched on to the facts of low cost operations, i.e.
1 - large catchment area required, and
2 - airport management willing to take the plunge.
Humberside has neither of these, frankly, the management have been positively anal about low cost airlines for many years (and I include the pre MAN PLC regime in this category).
Unless you offer the low cost operators a good deal, which will ineviatebly mean that the airport makes nothing out of it for a couple of years, then they won't come.
It's a fact that if you offer low cost flights, approximately 30 per cent of those passengers will come back and use the airport for other flights during the next 12 months.
I admit to having a vested interest, but Norwich is the prime example, low cost flights started at the beginning of the year, and there are now a wide variety of low cost flights available and more to come, by the mid 2006 they expect to be turning over (excuse the pun) 1 million pax per year, ( a frightening thought....
)
I wish HUY no ill will, but the "head in the sand" attitude which prevailed during the development of DSA and still does, will kill them commercially.
I hope it never happens, but if they're not careful, all they'll be good for soon is a few AMS, and couple of ABZ scheduled services per day, and a good place to do training, and that's about it.
1 - large catchment area required, and
2 - airport management willing to take the plunge.
Humberside has neither of these, frankly, the management have been positively anal about low cost airlines for many years (and I include the pre MAN PLC regime in this category).
Unless you offer the low cost operators a good deal, which will ineviatebly mean that the airport makes nothing out of it for a couple of years, then they won't come.
It's a fact that if you offer low cost flights, approximately 30 per cent of those passengers will come back and use the airport for other flights during the next 12 months.
I admit to having a vested interest, but Norwich is the prime example, low cost flights started at the beginning of the year, and there are now a wide variety of low cost flights available and more to come, by the mid 2006 they expect to be turning over (excuse the pun) 1 million pax per year, ( a frightening thought....
)I wish HUY no ill will, but the "head in the sand" attitude which prevailed during the development of DSA and still does, will kill them commercially.
I hope it never happens, but if they're not careful, all they'll be good for soon is a few AMS, and couple of ABZ scheduled services per day, and a good place to do training, and that's about it.
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Surely the Manchester Airport Group has to realise that in order to prevent passengers from this side of Pennines going to DSA and LBA because of locality and increasing meeting of needs, it would be wise to invest in HUY and offer airline incentives.
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But that is surely the rub.
One has to accept a loss over a considerable period of time before seeing a benefit. That is great if the risk is shared, but if it is one-sided, i.e. low charges from the airport and "...oh by the way if the route does not work we will can it..." by the airline is a bit of a one sided arrangement. How many people out there running a business (a shop for example) would allow a company free rent of a space for that particular company to see it's product and if after x time it was not making enough money (note I did not say making money) they say thanks Mr Shop-keeper and walk away...forget it, one would surely want some form of risk share after all the shop is assisting in facilitating the other trader's customers, the add-on sale is very tenuous!?
Great to have an airport with loads of pax, but, like a town with loads of people that only window shop and don't buy the town centre becomes a wasteland. Or the restuarant whose tables are full of 'one coffee and a croissant' all day, no fois gras and salmon steaks with caviar get a look in cos all the tables are occupied. the restaurant looks busy -packed out, but it makes B-all.
Does that make sense at all? Or is the science and economics somewhat different to Keynes et al.
One has to accept a loss over a considerable period of time before seeing a benefit. That is great if the risk is shared, but if it is one-sided, i.e. low charges from the airport and "...oh by the way if the route does not work we will can it..." by the airline is a bit of a one sided arrangement. How many people out there running a business (a shop for example) would allow a company free rent of a space for that particular company to see it's product and if after x time it was not making enough money (note I did not say making money) they say thanks Mr Shop-keeper and walk away...forget it, one would surely want some form of risk share after all the shop is assisting in facilitating the other trader's customers, the add-on sale is very tenuous!?
Great to have an airport with loads of pax, but, like a town with loads of people that only window shop and don't buy the town centre becomes a wasteland. Or the restuarant whose tables are full of 'one coffee and a croissant' all day, no fois gras and salmon steaks with caviar get a look in cos all the tables are occupied. the restaurant looks busy -packed out, but it makes B-all.
Does that make sense at all? Or is the science and economics somewhat different to Keynes et al.
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Or is the science and economics somewhat different to Keynes et al.
I know very little about macro/micro economic theory etc so I'll not make my self look stupid.........I do enough of that as it is.
I think I can see what you are getting at, but surely there is more to it than just the cost of a flight ticket. An increase in number of pax, even if the airport was making a loss for a couple of years, surely would have a knock on effect to the local economy. If after two years a low cost based airline increases your pax by 250,000, like I surmise it has done at Coventry, its another quarter of a million people using airport and local facilities, a local shopkeeper wouldn’t need to sub-let space.
It’s a tricky one you have there at HUY, 7006fan. Do you speculate to accumulate and rock the steady boat? Or do you play the safe game and say a little profit is enough whilst seeing an abundance of action at other airports?
I can see what you say about the Airport having more risk and more to lose than, say, the airline/tour operator, but isn't that how the airport industry works?
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Ran the risk line for a long time. Relying on 3rd party payments to cover the risk investment of c.£150k (borrowed), if it all went wrong I still owed the bank 150k. But it was worth it in the end, but was very hard work, cleared the 150k back to the bank and saw a decent return to myself +15% overall. maybe Humberside should do the same!! Just a thought.
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Yep,
N Lincs still retain an interest, about 17%, I think, according to the ScunnyT. All the others: NE Lincs, East Riding Lincs? sold their interest, might be carrying out self abuse now, but might have seemed right at the time?
N Lincs still retain an interest, about 17%, I think, according to the ScunnyT. All the others: NE Lincs, East Riding Lincs? sold their interest, might be carrying out self abuse now, but might have seemed right at the time?
Last edited by 7006 fan; 14th Jul 2005 at 18:17.
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I used to work for a partnership based in Hull, and at the time they were preparing a paper concerned with strategies aimed at regeneration, job creation and an overall future viewpoint of Humberside and the City of Hull. I wasn’t a big player, more a general dogsbody. For what it’s worth though, Hull has pretty much lived up to expectation with the concentration of high private and public sector investment it has seen of late. Humberside Airport was always high on the agenda. If I remember rightly a year or two before the Manchester Group took it over, it had seen a good degree of development. But it wasn’t to stop there. Plans were afoot to regenerate the whole area around the airport, a bit like DSA is doing now, and the airport management committee was intent on expanding operations and it used East Midland Airport as a yardstick. I can only guess the Manchester Group put the spoke in after it acquired a majority share holding.
My allegiance is towards DSA, but I’ve got a soft spot for HUY, and to be perfectly honest, I was a bit p****d off when after all this time HUY hadn’t made much of an inroad to exploit its potential.
I would have thought the Humber region had a greater catchment area than the Norwich area
My allegiance is towards DSA, but I’ve got a soft spot for HUY, and to be perfectly honest, I was a bit p****d off when after all this time HUY hadn’t made much of an inroad to exploit its potential.
large catchment area required
Last edited by MrDearne; 13th Jul 2005 at 22:55.
7006 ''One has to accept a loss over a considerable period of time before seeing a benefit. That is great if the risk is shared, but if it is one-sided, i.e. low charges from the airport and "...oh by the way if the route does not work we will can it..." That is in a way true, however 7006, please don't think that the 'established' lo-co's don't have a pretty good idea of if that route will work before starting it. In the early days of lo-co's it was certainly more of a risk, but now the established players are far cuter regarding the potential yeilds. Don't forget if they have to 'can' a route thats a big loss for them too. Money as a lo-co operator you can ill afford to lose. A new lo-co would present a greater risk to an airport in my opinion, unless they really have a unique product. Both eJ and Ryan are pretty bullish about the likely survival of small or new operators. Have a search for an airline called NOW on the prune forums and you'll see what I mean. It was an operation that many of us around the lo-co side of the industry had deep reservations about, and unfortunately for those who joined NOW, we were proved right.
Again one element you appear to have missed out on (no disrespect here), is the increase in volume of pax through the terminal, increases the business potential and money making potential on terminal commercial agreements. The BAA has for years made more money from the terminal commercial activities than they do from airport operating charges. If you look at places like Luton, the amount of terminal commercial activity, (i.e. serving the pax) has increased beyond all recogniton. This is primarily due to lo-co operations, take a look at Airline series 1, and compare with the latest programmes. Ignore the people, look past them into the background, the airport is unrecognisable. Its partly a 'no pain no gain' equasion, however I suggest with the established lo-co's the odds are far better of making a return. When eJ turned up at Luton the concept was unheard of, flying for the price of a pair of jeans, but see the way the industry has changed since. Unfortunately Humberside is arguably in the wrong location, and has lost out to DSA in attracting lo-co's and the potential revenue they bring into the region. The no pain no gain outlook is also seen outside the aviation industry, Tottenham Council in London is offering free deals to high street chains to come to their area, to assist in regeneration and all that goes with it. Its a risk certainly, but what else will encourage them to come?
Again one element you appear to have missed out on (no disrespect here), is the increase in volume of pax through the terminal, increases the business potential and money making potential on terminal commercial agreements. The BAA has for years made more money from the terminal commercial activities than they do from airport operating charges. If you look at places like Luton, the amount of terminal commercial activity, (i.e. serving the pax) has increased beyond all recogniton. This is primarily due to lo-co operations, take a look at Airline series 1, and compare with the latest programmes. Ignore the people, look past them into the background, the airport is unrecognisable. Its partly a 'no pain no gain' equasion, however I suggest with the established lo-co's the odds are far better of making a return. When eJ turned up at Luton the concept was unheard of, flying for the price of a pair of jeans, but see the way the industry has changed since. Unfortunately Humberside is arguably in the wrong location, and has lost out to DSA in attracting lo-co's and the potential revenue they bring into the region. The no pain no gain outlook is also seen outside the aviation industry, Tottenham Council in London is offering free deals to high street chains to come to their area, to assist in regeneration and all that goes with it. Its a risk certainly, but what else will encourage them to come?
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Glasgow Prestwick is a classic example of 'lo-co rescue'. An airport on its beam ends and now, millions of pax through the terminal. They have spent a considerable amount of money to facilitate the operations which is great. A couple of years ago BOH were going to spend loads as they had Buzz. But then Buzz got bought out and a consolidation of routes occured and BOH had nothing. Good job it happened before the works took place. The add-on sales are great especially if like LGW/LHR the terminal contains enough shops to fill a small town centre, but the terminal has none, they have to be constructed.
Maybe the LPL agreement with EZ is a way forward, gather it is a 15 year? deal based on year on year step changes in fees, sounds sensible, no doubt there will be a get out clause for the airline on payment of a compensatory fee?
I think it all comes down to money in the end and historically HUY has never benefitted from fiscal investment, maybe some big cash should be chucked at it to see what happens!!!
M62 here I come
Maybe the LPL agreement with EZ is a way forward, gather it is a 15 year? deal based on year on year step changes in fees, sounds sensible, no doubt there will be a get out clause for the airline on payment of a compensatory fee?
I think it all comes down to money in the end and historically HUY has never benefitted from fiscal investment, maybe some big cash should be chucked at it to see what happens!!!
M62 here I come
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Not sure if it's true but I was told by someone the other week who works at the airport that HUY would like to buy more land around the airport however it is all owned by the same guy who is flatly refusing to sell any. I think it is the guy (Lord someone or other) who owns the stately house type building about a mile to the east of HUY, he is always complaining about circuit traffic so I don't think he is a big fan on the airport.
Just to reiterate, this is second hand info.
CBK
Just to reiterate, this is second hand info.
CBK
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Maybe the land could be for the additional runway that airport so desperatly needs to aleviate the movement congestion but there again i could be taking the urine!
Not more industrial developments to lease out to cover the costs of operating an airport that can not attract airlines to operate scheduled full service or low cost routes that most local airports seem to have other than HUY!
Probably the said owner is more cheesed off that the airport can not utilise what they already have
Cynical comments, perhaps but the shear abuse of tax payers money over the years (NE Lincs 1/3 share) and seemingly lax management is turning HUY into an aviation backwater and the people in the area are being short changed of direct services to the both the rest of the UK and Europe
C'mon HUY pull ya socks up
Not more industrial developments to lease out to cover the costs of operating an airport that can not attract airlines to operate scheduled full service or low cost routes that most local airports seem to have other than HUY!
Probably the said owner is more cheesed off that the airport can not utilise what they already have
Cynical comments, perhaps but the shear abuse of tax payers money over the years (NE Lincs 1/3 share) and seemingly lax management is turning HUY into an aviation backwater and the people in the area are being short changed of direct services to the both the rest of the UK and Europe
C'mon HUY pull ya socks up
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Bored Bored and more Bored
Why all this waffle about low cost and routes etc.....
Forget the past and who tried what. I am sure every airline has looked at every airport in Britain several times for potential bussiness. The clear lack of interest by the airlines with Humberside is that they do not see viable routes. They are the ones that have been to school and leaned about the bussiness. If they all show no interest then pehaps they are correct in thinking Humberside is best left to charters.
Instead of hundreds of posts of what could happen and the size of the catchment area etc.. why not try and sell Humberside for what it is and its advantages.
Easy to get to. Ample parking that is not miles away. Personal friendly service by the Airport staff as they are not overwelmed like larger airports.
Forget catchment areas, I will always choose a quiet airport if I can, no strees no fuss and easy life.
Away from the terminal,
I notice serveal exec jets using the airport. Ease of access etc.
This includes exec jets available at Humberside.
There are several flying schools
A busy heliport, and now blue light airways.
Cargo - several dedicated cargo flights each week flying in fish.
Eastern Airways headquaters and main maintenance base.
New hangars being built for more aircraft maintenance.
Specialised maintenance available to ex-military jet trainers.
In summary if the airport was not viable then I would have assumed all activity would have ceased ages ago. If the Management of the Airport want to grow the airport it is up to them. I as someone who is emplyed at the airport enjoy it for what it is, not what some think it should be.
Forget the past and who tried what. I am sure every airline has looked at every airport in Britain several times for potential bussiness. The clear lack of interest by the airlines with Humberside is that they do not see viable routes. They are the ones that have been to school and leaned about the bussiness. If they all show no interest then pehaps they are correct in thinking Humberside is best left to charters.
Instead of hundreds of posts of what could happen and the size of the catchment area etc.. why not try and sell Humberside for what it is and its advantages.
Easy to get to. Ample parking that is not miles away. Personal friendly service by the Airport staff as they are not overwelmed like larger airports.
Forget catchment areas, I will always choose a quiet airport if I can, no strees no fuss and easy life.
Away from the terminal,
I notice serveal exec jets using the airport. Ease of access etc.
This includes exec jets available at Humberside.
There are several flying schools
A busy heliport, and now blue light airways.
Cargo - several dedicated cargo flights each week flying in fish.
Eastern Airways headquaters and main maintenance base.
New hangars being built for more aircraft maintenance.
Specialised maintenance available to ex-military jet trainers.
In summary if the airport was not viable then I would have assumed all activity would have ceased ages ago. If the Management of the Airport want to grow the airport it is up to them. I as someone who is emplyed at the airport enjoy it for what it is, not what some think it should be.
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NFI - Your easily pleased then!
Think we all like HUY for what it is, but surely as someone whom is reliant upon the airport for ones employment then surely you want to see the airport grow, I among others are only speculating as to where that road will take HUY.
As an ex-employee of the very same airport (many moons ago might I add) I would just like to see the airport attract services the majority of the UK already have, your post seems to reflect the very attitude of the airport, dont fix something that aint broken.
That maybe good enough for you but I for one want more than is currently on offer.
Think we all like HUY for what it is, but surely as someone whom is reliant upon the airport for ones employment then surely you want to see the airport grow, I among others are only speculating as to where that road will take HUY.
As an ex-employee of the very same airport (many moons ago might I add) I would just like to see the airport attract services the majority of the UK already have, your post seems to reflect the very attitude of the airport, dont fix something that aint broken.
That maybe good enough for you but I for one want more than is currently on offer.
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Mr C.
I do agree don't fix what a'int broke. However there is expansion at Humberside - . EASTERN AIRWAYS Humberside based airline.
As the largest employer at the airport, it seems strange that Eastern is always ignored when you speculate about the future
of the airport.
In the last 18 months Eastern Airways has built new offices, added more aircraft to it's fleet and more routes to it's network. This has increased employment at Humberside.
The company has a niche schedule market that covers 17 airports in the UK. Aircraft are an ideal size for specialized charters that includes football teams, pop stars and corperate clients.
Forget the loco's speculate what Humberside's largest employer plans to do next. It can only be good for the airport.
I do agree don't fix what a'int broke. However there is expansion at Humberside - . EASTERN AIRWAYS Humberside based airline.
As the largest employer at the airport, it seems strange that Eastern is always ignored when you speculate about the future
of the airport.
In the last 18 months Eastern Airways has built new offices, added more aircraft to it's fleet and more routes to it's network. This has increased employment at Humberside.
The company has a niche schedule market that covers 17 airports in the UK. Aircraft are an ideal size for specialized charters that includes football teams, pop stars and corperate clients.
Forget the loco's speculate what Humberside's largest employer plans to do next. It can only be good for the airport.
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Mr N,
Am well aware of Eastern Airways, it's base, its aircraft and its routes but thanks for the insight.
We both agree that Eastern is the major employer at HUY but my posts refer to actual routes flown from HUY, for all of its size Eastern Aw only operates one route from HUY and there lies my point....... its operators that HUY needs, operators to routes currently not flown from HUY.
Eastern Mark I operated far more routes from HUY than the Mark II, they even operated european routes from the airport, how things have changed.
But as you have previously mentioned, thats the past, I just cant see the direction the airport is heading in the future, you have different ideas to me but I respect your point.
Mr C
Am well aware of Eastern Airways, it's base, its aircraft and its routes but thanks for the insight.
We both agree that Eastern is the major employer at HUY but my posts refer to actual routes flown from HUY, for all of its size Eastern Aw only operates one route from HUY and there lies my point....... its operators that HUY needs, operators to routes currently not flown from HUY.
Eastern Mark I operated far more routes from HUY than the Mark II, they even operated european routes from the airport, how things have changed.
But as you have previously mentioned, thats the past, I just cant see the direction the airport is heading in the future, you have different ideas to me but I respect your point.
Mr C
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Why don't Eastern operate routes to Europe?? There are some routes that would be just right for a J32 or J41, and the bigger routes they could use a Saab 2000, now that they have 4
mmeteesside
mmeteesside
Why don't Eastern operate routes to Europe??
Like it or not, and I'm sure there are HUY fans who will swear otherwise, the Aberdeen route has very specific attributes which allow Eastern to exploit it as a niche. I really don't see significant
business only demand for any other routes. Most travel to European destinations, business and leisure, can probably be catered for via Amsterdam.
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OK, let's have a thought here for a second.
HUY has a 'static' charter market based upon the loyal local customer who appreciates the no-hassle, no delay, easy access of HUY.
HUY has Eastern Airways (why not more routes guys?- even feeder/code share to near Europe, or are they wedded to £300 to ABZ).
Active off-shore market,.v.v.v.busy,
Expanding cargo work (albeit niche)
Plenty of Bizjets
Packed out Scheduled to AMS (Why no F100/ small 737?)
Possibility of engineering with the big hangar
Nick Nick Airways (surely they ain't there for free)
AND
For the last 2/3 years, as I understand, a profit (small but in the black -not the red).
Why change strategy?. It is working, why go for something different, why go lo-co with such huge lo-co competition down the road?, maybe one or two; Alicante, Budapest, Nice, Malaga or such.
But if what is there provides a steady income stream and the 'bean counters' are happy, why go high risk in a very high risk market?
Wonder if North Weald gets the same sort of grief?
HUY has a 'static' charter market based upon the loyal local customer who appreciates the no-hassle, no delay, easy access of HUY.
HUY has Eastern Airways (why not more routes guys?- even feeder/code share to near Europe, or are they wedded to £300 to ABZ).
Active off-shore market,.v.v.v.busy,
Expanding cargo work (albeit niche)
Plenty of Bizjets
Packed out Scheduled to AMS (Why no F100/ small 737?)
Possibility of engineering with the big hangar
Nick Nick Airways (surely they ain't there for free)
AND
For the last 2/3 years, as I understand, a profit (small but in the black -not the red).
Why change strategy?. It is working, why go for something different, why go lo-co with such huge lo-co competition down the road?, maybe one or two; Alicante, Budapest, Nice, Malaga or such.
But if what is there provides a steady income stream and the 'bean counters' are happy, why go high risk in a very high risk market?
Wonder if North Weald gets the same sort of grief?