bmi longhaul
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I have no idea whether bmi's current longhaul routes are successful or not, but I am surprised that their focus is entirely on the USA when there are good profits to be made on other destinations from LHR, which bmi could service more easily. I get the impression that the SAA sub-lease has been an operational success - it seems that SAA were highly impressed with the A330 and may order some of their own - but whether it covered bmi's costs is another matter.
As for a 'merger' between bmi and Virgin, I think that's now history. Virgin's branding is far too strong to be risked by dilution with another company (as SQ realised), and getting involved with European-based full-service shorthaul seems to be a good way of losing your shirt. As far as I can tell from what's published here and in the newspapers, bmibaby is keeping the shorthaul balance sheet in the black, and baby would be very unlikely to be included in any deal. Virgin's current codeshares with bmi cover their feeder requirements in the UK; owning the airline wouldn't help their balance sheet or the passenger loads. As I see it, it ain't gonna happen - but RB and Bish could well prove me wrong!
As for a 'merger' between bmi and Virgin, I think that's now history. Virgin's branding is far too strong to be risked by dilution with another company (as SQ realised), and getting involved with European-based full-service shorthaul seems to be a good way of losing your shirt. As far as I can tell from what's published here and in the newspapers, bmibaby is keeping the shorthaul balance sheet in the black, and baby would be very unlikely to be included in any deal. Virgin's current codeshares with bmi cover their feeder requirements in the UK; owning the airline wouldn't help their balance sheet or the passenger loads. As I see it, it ain't gonna happen - but RB and Bish could well prove me wrong!
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Virgin/bmi Merger
I totally agree with Scroggs. Why on earth would Branson want to merge his profitable long-haul airline with a second-rate, loss-making, short-haul airline? Feeder traffic? Well, the codeshare does that already.
A possible buyout by Virgin might be the only option but only so they can use the slots ex-LHR to increase long-haul routes/frequencies, and then sell everything else off. Why else would anyone buy a loss-making company which is already struggling against the low-cost carriers, to be made even worse if they build that 2nd runway at Stansted.
As for guys in bmi, the only way it would benefit them is if it goes ahead as an equitable merger - does anyone really think that will happen? Even then, there's nothing to say that there will definitely be any great benefit e.g. merging seniority lists, etc. At best, I think they'll continue to trade as 2 separate airlines, but under the Virgin brand. But, as I said, I think this is extremely unlikely.
Any other thoughts/comments? Would be interested to hear.
A possible buyout by Virgin might be the only option but only so they can use the slots ex-LHR to increase long-haul routes/frequencies, and then sell everything else off. Why else would anyone buy a loss-making company which is already struggling against the low-cost carriers, to be made even worse if they build that 2nd runway at Stansted.
As for guys in bmi, the only way it would benefit them is if it goes ahead as an equitable merger - does anyone really think that will happen? Even then, there's nothing to say that there will definitely be any great benefit e.g. merging seniority lists, etc. At best, I think they'll continue to trade as 2 separate airlines, but under the Virgin brand. But, as I said, I think this is extremely unlikely.
Any other thoughts/comments? Would be interested to hear.
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Apparently ORD is something of a cash cow while IAD not doing so brilliantly although cargo keeps the dollars rolling in. As for the arguement of mgt. versus bean counters, let's just say there aren't a whole lot of beans to count. Yeah sue pax loads are high but yield per seat mile is abissmal which sees bmi in some cases/routes not even break even and hence a huge drive is on to reduce costs...... Big changes are afoot!!!!!!!!!
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"second-rate, loss-making, short-haul airline"
loss-making, maybe, short-haul yes, second rate? If you are going to use terms like that, at least qualify them.
This business is tough at the best of times. What is the point of being derogatory?
loss-making, maybe, short-haul yes, second rate? If you are going to use terms like that, at least qualify them.
This business is tough at the best of times. What is the point of being derogatory?
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"loss making"
I laughed so much I never thought my pants would dry!!
BM, bmi, or whoever, have never made a profit in 20+ years of existence (work it out). Well they did one year, and sold a share to Lufty!
Thats why a particular employee gets huge bungs when things are so tough. Its called accountancy, and done properly is a worthwhile exercise, just ask some shareholders?
I laughed so much I never thought my pants would dry!!
BM, bmi, or whoever, have never made a profit in 20+ years of existence (work it out). Well they did one year, and sold a share to Lufty!
Thats why a particular employee gets huge bungs when things are so tough. Its called accountancy, and done properly is a worthwhile exercise, just ask some shareholders?
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GGM
Who the F**K are you to talk about bmi as a second rate airline, bmi has been around for years and years and will be for years to come in some form or another.
It happens to be a VERY good airline to work for with a great bunch of flight crew, cabin crew etc who work very hard to keep the company going in one for the most competitive markets in the world.
Long haul is working and I'm sure more work will be found for the 3rd A330 soon, why they do not fly east from LHR? I don't know but they must have there reasons.
I agree with scroggs that I do not see a merger with Virgin in the near future but who knows, the slots that bmi have are worth millions and everyone has there price.
GGM - next time you slagg off another airline think before you write or maybe you should just try another planet ie PLUTO
cheers
fc
Who the F**K are you to talk about bmi as a second rate airline, bmi has been around for years and years and will be for years to come in some form or another.
It happens to be a VERY good airline to work for with a great bunch of flight crew, cabin crew etc who work very hard to keep the company going in one for the most competitive markets in the world.
Long haul is working and I'm sure more work will be found for the 3rd A330 soon, why they do not fly east from LHR? I don't know but they must have there reasons.
I agree with scroggs that I do not see a merger with Virgin in the near future but who knows, the slots that bmi have are worth millions and everyone has there price.
GGM - next time you slagg off another airline think before you write or maybe you should just try another planet ie PLUTO
cheers
fc
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FC,
Thank you for your "eloquent" reply.
I'm not going to tell you!! But I do feel justified in my comments which, I believe, do not amount to a "slagging off". Just common business sense. OK, second-rate might have been a bit strong but loss-making certainly wasn't - you can't deny that.
I agree that the flight & cabin crew are the best bunch of people anyone could wish to work with. Unfortunately, the powers that be don't seem to hold any of them in particularly high regard which is why no-one seems to stick around unless they're caught in the seniority "net."
Thank you for your "eloquent" reply.
Who the F**K are you to talk about bmi
I agree that the flight & cabin crew are the best bunch of people anyone could wish to work with. Unfortunately, the powers that be don't seem to hold any of them in particularly high regard which is why no-one seems to stick around unless they're caught in the seniority "net."
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No, I think "second rate" is a moderately accurate definition of some of their upper and middle level management performance.
Aircrews are indeed some of the best around, despite their treatment, but the high turnover of ground staff and the dire training and support is well known in the industry.
The only reason that they are still in business is the profits made from the customer ground handling side and its subsequent sale to Aviance (then GHI), another second (if not third) rate outfit.
I've seen the corners they've cut, the regulations they've ignored and the immoral treatment of staff for myself (and wouldn't mention here unless I had solid evidence to back it up).
Since this is a rumour network, I'll throw the little figure of £100k monthly losses through ticketing f**k-ups, due to the same high staff turnover, shoddy training and dire management.
I would say that this is, and has always been, a company with great potential, once you get rid of the middle management yes-men and head in the clouds big bosses, and put some qualified people-motivators in place.
Tony (Joined bmi in 93)
Aircrews are indeed some of the best around, despite their treatment, but the high turnover of ground staff and the dire training and support is well known in the industry.
The only reason that they are still in business is the profits made from the customer ground handling side and its subsequent sale to Aviance (then GHI), another second (if not third) rate outfit.
I've seen the corners they've cut, the regulations they've ignored and the immoral treatment of staff for myself (and wouldn't mention here unless I had solid evidence to back it up).
Since this is a rumour network, I'll throw the little figure of £100k monthly losses through ticketing f**k-ups, due to the same high staff turnover, shoddy training and dire management.
I would say that this is, and has always been, a company with great potential, once you get rid of the middle management yes-men and head in the clouds big bosses, and put some qualified people-motivators in place.
Tony (Joined bmi in 93)
GGM,
Depends what you mean by "loss making". The balance sheet has occasionally shown a loss and the years when a profit is shown it is normally not a large one. HOWEVER, one does not get to the Bish's position in the rich list by running a company for 30 years that has never made money. The bloke (and the other private shareholders) are worth millions, between them they have ownership of several off-shore leasing companies that own, outright, a large numbers of bmi aircraft and other assets. I believe that two more 321's have recently been purchased from the original leasing agents to add to this portfolio. That and other legal scams mean that huge amounts of money vanish out the back door before they hit the bottom line, (Donington Hall lease charges, Jersey Handling, Fokker engine leases etc. etc.). At the moment operating margins and profits are under huge pressure but there is no shortage of money sloshing around and never has been.
Tony M.,
Quite correct, an accurate summary of the situation the company is in. Nothing will change with the current upper managment in place and while we are still run from the sleepy hollow of Donington Hall (no Little Blue I don't mean ops.). The parochial, and out of touch attitude that pervades up there along with 1950's style admin. has shackled the company for years.
Depends what you mean by "loss making". The balance sheet has occasionally shown a loss and the years when a profit is shown it is normally not a large one. HOWEVER, one does not get to the Bish's position in the rich list by running a company for 30 years that has never made money. The bloke (and the other private shareholders) are worth millions, between them they have ownership of several off-shore leasing companies that own, outright, a large numbers of bmi aircraft and other assets. I believe that two more 321's have recently been purchased from the original leasing agents to add to this portfolio. That and other legal scams mean that huge amounts of money vanish out the back door before they hit the bottom line, (Donington Hall lease charges, Jersey Handling, Fokker engine leases etc. etc.). At the moment operating margins and profits are under huge pressure but there is no shortage of money sloshing around and never has been.
Tony M.,
Quite correct, an accurate summary of the situation the company is in. Nothing will change with the current upper managment in place and while we are still run from the sleepy hollow of Donington Hall (no Little Blue I don't mean ops.). The parochial, and out of touch attitude that pervades up there along with 1950's style admin. has shackled the company for years.
Last edited by Max Angle; 4th Dec 2003 at 18:43.
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Tony_EM & jetset747 - glad you agree!!
Max Angle - I'm referring to recent times. I agree that Bish's men are some of the finest at "cooking the books" but I can't imagine for one second that they didn't actually make a loss last year. Normally, they'd plead poverty by expecting the troops to believe that the company has lost or made a very small amount (e.g. <£3m). However, last years posted loss of £24m (the company's biggest loss) was a huge increase on anything previously seen. As Tony_EM mentioned, much of the profits in recent years have been from the sale of extraordinary items such as the ground handling, spare engines, etc. This year, the cupboard was bare - that coupled with a pretty harsh trading environment means, I believe, they must have lost some cash along the way. Next years projected loss of £10m+ is not all that inspiring either.
Also, don't forget bmi are continually propped up by an agreement between themselves, Lufthansa & SAS (called the ECA, I think) whereby the stronger airlines will help to financially bail out the weaker ones. Lufty & SAS are apparently fed up chucking money bmi's way - last year's loss would have otherwise been £70m+ were it not for this agreement.
On the flip-side though, you have to give full credit to Sir Bish for getting into that agreement in the first place!!
I do agree that, generally, things are made to appear a lot worse than they are. Sir Bish has never been short of a bob or two & has certainly got a nice big pot of gold stashed away somewhere a.k.a. his retirement fund. How far he'll dig into it to keep things going is anyone's guess.
From Fast Cruiser:
Maybe I'm not talking about another airline.....
(What's Pluto got to do with anything?)
Max Angle - I'm referring to recent times. I agree that Bish's men are some of the finest at "cooking the books" but I can't imagine for one second that they didn't actually make a loss last year. Normally, they'd plead poverty by expecting the troops to believe that the company has lost or made a very small amount (e.g. <£3m). However, last years posted loss of £24m (the company's biggest loss) was a huge increase on anything previously seen. As Tony_EM mentioned, much of the profits in recent years have been from the sale of extraordinary items such as the ground handling, spare engines, etc. This year, the cupboard was bare - that coupled with a pretty harsh trading environment means, I believe, they must have lost some cash along the way. Next years projected loss of £10m+ is not all that inspiring either.
Also, don't forget bmi are continually propped up by an agreement between themselves, Lufthansa & SAS (called the ECA, I think) whereby the stronger airlines will help to financially bail out the weaker ones. Lufty & SAS are apparently fed up chucking money bmi's way - last year's loss would have otherwise been £70m+ were it not for this agreement.
On the flip-side though, you have to give full credit to Sir Bish for getting into that agreement in the first place!!I do agree that, generally, things are made to appear a lot worse than they are. Sir Bish has never been short of a bob or two & has certainly got a nice big pot of gold stashed away somewhere a.k.a. his retirement fund. How far he'll dig into it to keep things going is anyone's guess.
From Fast Cruiser:
GGM - next time you slagg off another airline think before you write or maybe you should just try another planet ie PLUTO
(What's Pluto got to do with anything?)
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Very good post Tony_EM.
Well worth a careful read for those who've merely skimmed to this point.
Goodness Gracious Me, I don't really think that only jetset747 agrees with Tony_EM, as you are perhaps attempting, rather badly, to imply. I would suspect that Tony_EM and 100% of the workforce endowed with more than one brain cell and a backbone are in agreement. Those emloyees with the qualifying biological attributes are arguably thin on the ground, though.
I quote Tony_EM
If you've seen regulations ignored, then should you not have reported these to the relevant authorities? You may interpret that as a criticism, Tony_EM, but it's intended as a question/suggestion. Under that heading, would you include the method used to recruit "volunteers" to bmibaby from bmi mainline employees, for example?
Well worth a careful read for those who've merely skimmed to this point.
Goodness Gracious Me, I don't really think that only jetset747 agrees with Tony_EM, as you are perhaps attempting, rather badly, to imply. I would suspect that Tony_EM and 100% of the workforce endowed with more than one brain cell and a backbone are in agreement. Those emloyees with the qualifying biological attributes are arguably thin on the ground, though.
I quote Tony_EM
I've seen the corners they've cut, the regulations they've ignored and the immoral treatment of staff for myself (and wouldn't mention here unless I had solid evidence to back it up).
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If you've seen regulations ignored, then should you not have reported these to the relevant authorities?
It is why I don't believe in self regulation in this industry anymore, and why I think there should much greater oversight and enforcement of regulations, especially in ground ops. I can't comment on maintnance or aircrews, other than to point out that there have been a number of worrying incidents in those areas too. I spent a long time pondering the merits of 'going public', but concluded that the gutter press would just use it to damage the industry as a whole (in order to sell papers of course), rather than to champion the cause of getting the system changed. My worst fear is that it will only happen once an aircraft is lost. Since my old companies are faithfully re-creating the circumstances of ValuJet and other accidents, I don't think it is 'if' but 'when'.
Some of the magement practises beggar belief, and it makes me shudder when friends tell me that it has got a lot worse since I left.
I got sold off to Aviance (GHI) with all the other 'equipment', so did not witness the usual cr@p during the creation and running of bmi Baby, but I still have my sources. Unfortunately, At Aviance we got the same managers and culture but worse. I got a final and written for 'dissent' to a superior and finally walked in protest. Good in principle, but it was just one less headache for them.
It (Baby) always looked to me like another one of Hogans 'Chop n' flog' efforts. I've heard plenty of stories where mainline staff and equipment is being used for Baby without records, no doubt to bolster the percieved productivity and profitability of it for any potential buyers. They did the same with the handling bit before they sold that.
Same ol' same ol'.
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Gather that washington is going back to 6 days per week PDQ after pressure from the cargo boys and better than expected load factors i also hear that Jersey handling picks up £1500.00 each time an Embraer lands, which in Summer is a lot, often with not a lot of Pax's still its a private airline so(within in reason) bish and co can do pretty much as they please. Good luck to them they have seen lots of wannabes off over the years.
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This is probably one of the best, most informative, interesting threads I have read in this part of PPRuNe!
I notice that bmi publish there load factors and pax figures each month en-masse. They don't break down mainlne, regional and baby.
As a guess I would imagine that baby's load factors are the highest, so by lumping all three divisions together you end up with a figure that is reportable via press release.
If they were listed separately ............?
As soon as baby get their own AOC I think they would be better off out of bmi mummy.
I notice that bmi publish there load factors and pax figures each month en-masse. They don't break down mainlne, regional and baby.
As a guess I would imagine that baby's load factors are the highest, so by lumping all three divisions together you end up with a figure that is reportable via press release.
If they were listed separately ............?
As soon as baby get their own AOC I think they would be better off out of bmi mummy.
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All i can say is that the flights today to IAD AND ORD were about 90% full and they were ramed with cargo off and on ... i say there are doing very well ....and the spare are craft has been re-sprayed in star aliance colours and is on stand71 with both engiens on it 
the rumour is they might be starting MAN - LAX or even DENVER fom spring next year
the rumour is they might be starting MAN - LAX or even DENVER fom spring next year
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nope resprayed ... it went into fls hangar before it went to south africa in SAA colours ....... then went back in when it returned to be turned back into BMI/star aliance .....
