British Airways Incident at Johannesburg
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Terpster:
Perhaps a big arrow on the chart with a note stating, "At the intersection of Bravo and Mike, look out the window more than normal when taxiing southbound on Bravo, and bear left to continue on Bravo to RWY 03L or a building will shortly thereafter smite thee with prejudice". Or perhaps a magenta line on the PFD/MFD for taxiing purposes with a flashing alert annunciator at taxiway intersections is in order. For those even more than mildly challenged in aviation, I'm sure technology exists to connect the steering to the autopilot in order for the automation to carry the day in a safe manner.
This, of course, will be a backup to any cockpit windows that might be deferred inop prior to the flight.
Sorry, couldn't help myself...again, but the opportunity was too ripe.
Perhaps a big arrow on the chart with a note stating, "At the intersection of Bravo and Mike, look out the window more than normal when taxiing southbound on Bravo, and bear left to continue on Bravo to RWY 03L or a building will shortly thereafter smite thee with prejudice". Or perhaps a magenta line on the PFD/MFD for taxiing purposes with a flashing alert annunciator at taxiway intersections is in order. For those even more than mildly challenged in aviation, I'm sure technology exists to connect the steering to the autopilot in order for the automation to carry the day in a safe manner.
This, of course, will be a backup to any cockpit windows that might be deferred inop prior to the flight.Sorry, couldn't help myself...again, but the opportunity was too ripe.
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Have a look at this Airbus A340-300 Night Takeoff in Johannesburg FAJS - YouTube. Seems to me these guys taxied along A, then turned right at L, then left onto B. At 3:35 (when the text "Packs one and two.. off" is about to disappear from screen),it seems to me that the "offending" building is visible in the distance (just to the right of the extended yellow center line you'll note a bright white light at the 2 o' clock position from the bright green light at the end of the extended yellow line). Note that the video has been edited between 3:35 and 3:43, which shows them entering 03L, so unfortunately we cannot see how visible/invisible the building is, or whether it is difficult to note the dog-leg to the left.
Last edited by Gigajoules; 31st Dec 2013 at 17:39. Reason: Correction of finger trouble
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OverRun
In your post 422 , why did you decide to use http://profemery.info/faor2.jpg and not http://profemery.info/faor1.jpg? Strange that both are supposedly screen captures of your deficient PDF display, but the graphic in the one differs to the other. Sorry, but I strongly suspect a manual edit on your part. I do not believe that a PDF reader will randomly offer a different graphic on a different file opening.
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One of the Swiss Cheese holes at Tenerife was a loss of SA on the ground.
One of the etc etc at Linate was a loss of SA on the ground.
Other previous postings on this thread have castigated the standard of and difficulty in understanding airfield markings.
After a very long career in mil/civil aviation, IMHO the most difficult navigation exercises are the ground manoeuvering parts of the sector.
But it will take more Tenerifes and more Linates before the industry finally gets a grip and sorts the issue out.
Meantime I will join the "there but for the grace" school of thought and I express my despair at the snide and vicious remarks being thrown at this unfortunate crew.
Some of the comments in this thread make me wonder at the effectiveness of psychometric testing for professional pilots if that's who are posting this sort of vitriol!
I wonder how they fare in the CRM criteria, or do they don their "nice guy" hats for the sim and line assessments?
Moving map displays are all very well, but when airfield signage is compared unfavourably to minor roads, then who is responsible?
And decent standardised signage will happen long before a flight deck mounted Tom-Tom.
Can we stop trying to patch the hole in the bucket and direct our anger and concern where it belongs?
Try a New Year's resolution for the next times you operate and ask the question:
WHO'S PERFECT??!!
One of the etc etc at Linate was a loss of SA on the ground.
Other previous postings on this thread have castigated the standard of and difficulty in understanding airfield markings.
After a very long career in mil/civil aviation, IMHO the most difficult navigation exercises are the ground manoeuvering parts of the sector.
But it will take more Tenerifes and more Linates before the industry finally gets a grip and sorts the issue out.
Meantime I will join the "there but for the grace" school of thought and I express my despair at the snide and vicious remarks being thrown at this unfortunate crew.
Some of the comments in this thread make me wonder at the effectiveness of psychometric testing for professional pilots if that's who are posting this sort of vitriol!
I wonder how they fare in the CRM criteria, or do they don their "nice guy" hats for the sim and line assessments?
Moving map displays are all very well, but when airfield signage is compared unfavourably to minor roads, then who is responsible?
And decent standardised signage will happen long before a flight deck mounted Tom-Tom.
Can we stop trying to patch the hole in the bucket and direct our anger and concern where it belongs?
Try a New Year's resolution for the next times you operate and ask the question:
WHO'S PERFECT??!!
Re: PDF
The graphic at the caa.co.za site for Aerodrome Ground Movement Chart uses a font that was not embedded in the PDF file (ArialUnicodeMS). Support of that font by Acrobat requires the Asian Font Package because of the Unicode encoding. If you don't install the Asian Font Package, the note about Taxiway B and Apron Taxilane M appears as an empty box.
I was impressed that the graphics are at a very high resolution. Lots of detail at 1600% zoom.
Now back to your regularly scheduled program.
The graphic at the caa.co.za site for Aerodrome Ground Movement Chart uses a font that was not embedded in the PDF file (ArialUnicodeMS). Support of that font by Acrobat requires the Asian Font Package because of the Unicode encoding. If you don't install the Asian Font Package, the note about Taxiway B and Apron Taxilane M appears as an empty box.
I was impressed that the graphics are at a very high resolution. Lots of detail at 1600% zoom.
Now back to your regularly scheduled program.
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My argument is that the frame of the box was visible in the one screen capture, and invisible in the other (only the drop-shadow remained). Two different screen captures not related to fonts at all.
If you don't have the correct font installed, Adobe Reader refuses to open the document and gives you a warning that you need to install the font before the document will display correctly. If you CANCEL THE WARNING then you get the chart with an obvious blank box.
If you don't have the correct font installed, Adobe Reader refuses to open the document and gives you a warning that you need to install the font before the document will display correctly. If you CANCEL THE WARNING then you get the chart with an obvious blank box.
Last edited by Jetdriver; 1st Jan 2014 at 14:27.
In other words, the PDF is too complex. Don't really need to be able to zoom in to 1600% do we?
Hey Pukin Dawg, nice positioning of the southern "B" by Jeppesen. It's clearer that "B" bears left. The Jepp chart is also far clearer; no shoulder or taxiway centreline markings to confuse the issue. I take back all that I said about them!
Hey Pukin Dawg, nice positioning of the southern "B" by Jeppesen. It's clearer that "B" bears left. The Jepp chart is also far clearer; no shoulder or taxiway centreline markings to confuse the issue. I take back all that I said about them!
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Barkingmad - a lot of the 
just pay lip service to CRM and put on a good show during checks.
When I hear anyone use the phrase "it's all too touchy feely these days" or similar, I know I'm in for a rubbish day at work.
just pay lip service to CRM and put on a good show during checks.When I hear anyone use the phrase "it's all too touchy feely these days" or similar, I know I'm in for a rubbish day at work.
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This was a lot closer to home in the early days of Heathrow, it took a couple of hours to cut the Captain free!
ASN Aircraft accident Vickers 701 Viscount G-AMOK London-Heathrow Airport (LHR)
Those of you, like myself, that operated out of Heathrow will see that after the above the concrete area was hatched over with white paint so that it could never happen again. Still there today.
At Joburg for there to be a note regarding this taxy-way/tow-way or whatever it is called means there has been problems in the past. Why, if it only used for towing, is it not blanked off with one of those reflective trailer caterpillar units that we used to see at Heathrow. Very effective visual block that could be towed behind a Landrover.
Joburg is not the only departure runway that has a parallel taxy-way that extends beyond the threshold. Dubai, was a case in point before the new terminal was built. The number of aircraft that ended up in the cargo center requesting a pushback tug was embarrassing. The difference being that the taxy-way didn't have a building off to the right. There are many others.
When I joined BEA in the late 60's Heathrow had its "greens" and good they were (and still are), Fifty years later the rest of the world is still playing "catch-up".
I hope the 747's crew are treated the same as the couple of Nigels in the Viscount
ASN Aircraft accident Vickers 701 Viscount G-AMOK London-Heathrow Airport (LHR)
Those of you, like myself, that operated out of Heathrow will see that after the above the concrete area was hatched over with white paint so that it could never happen again. Still there today.
At Joburg for there to be a note regarding this taxy-way/tow-way or whatever it is called means there has been problems in the past. Why, if it only used for towing, is it not blanked off with one of those reflective trailer caterpillar units that we used to see at Heathrow. Very effective visual block that could be towed behind a Landrover.
Joburg is not the only departure runway that has a parallel taxy-way that extends beyond the threshold. Dubai, was a case in point before the new terminal was built. The number of aircraft that ended up in the cargo center requesting a pushback tug was embarrassing. The difference being that the taxy-way didn't have a building off to the right. There are many others.
When I joined BEA in the late 60's Heathrow had its "greens" and good they were (and still are), Fifty years later the rest of the world is still playing "catch-up".
I hope the 747's crew are treated the same as the couple of Nigels in the Viscount
Paxing All Over The World
As 'Pax', looking at the Swiss A340 taxi out video: Following a single yellow line seems curiously simplistic. Obviously, in the video, we cannot see the signage by the side of the taxi way which might give lots of information.
Given that JNB is an extremely busy international airport with a wide range of carriers using it, one might expect something better.
As one who has lived in South Africa (and has had family there for non-stop for 180 years) I am not in the least bit surprised that the ground markings are so poor, the taxiways confusing and warning signs lacking.
Given that JNB is an extremely busy international airport with a wide range of carriers using it, one might expect something better.
As one who has lived in South Africa (and has had family there for non-stop for 180 years) I am not in the least bit surprised that the ground markings are so poor, the taxiways confusing and warning signs lacking.
its very dark - add abit of rain - not my idea of fun
you guys earn your dosh
you guys earn your dosh
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When it comes to taking the wrong taxiway this genuine air traffic control tape (with graphics) from Providence USA is one of the the most chilling I have ever heard. A United has taken the wrong taxiway in fog, (easily done), it stops on a live runway and an aircraft is cleared for takeoff. The departing aircraft luckily gets airborne before it hits United. The United reports they are on an active runway and an aircraft has just taken off over them. They are told to be quiet and another aircraft is cleared for takeoff.....
If ever there is an argument for moving map airport taxiway displays to be made mandatory in commercial aircraft this is it.
So Many Errors: The Runway Incursion of United 1448
If ever there is an argument for moving map airport taxiway displays to be made mandatory in commercial aircraft this is it.
So Many Errors: The Runway Incursion of United 1448
Paxing All Over The World
suninmyeyes Indeed and one only has to remember that:
- all the technology already exists
- the technology is in operation in certain parts of the world
- carriers and airports and regulators have all seen the accidents
- reports have been written
- warnings have been given and are documented
- £
- $
- R
- €
- ¥
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BA management are a shower of finger wagging know-it-alls. Desperately wise after the event....
Anyone could have done this cockup, including muggins 'ere- but this crew are in for the ride of their lives now.
I feel for them.
Anyone could have done this cockup, including muggins 'ere- but this crew are in for the ride of their lives now.
I feel for them.