British Airways Incident at Johannesburg
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ATC Watcher wonders:
No, I don't have personal or first-hand knowledge of previous incidents, though there are indications in this thread that it's not the first time an aircraft has missed that turn.
My knee-jerk response is due to the general approach of civil and government authorities here (and I speak specifically of Johannesburg). There is widespread incompetence and buck-passing. I merely assume (knowing full well that all assumptions are dangerous) that the airport authorities are not immune from the general malaise.
Do you have any indication to confirm that statement ? Have there been previous ground incidents involving ATC that would explain your "knee-jerk" response ?
My knee-jerk response is due to the general approach of civil and government authorities here (and I speak specifically of Johannesburg). There is widespread incompetence and buck-passing. I merely assume (knowing full well that all assumptions are dangerous) that the airport authorities are not immune from the general malaise.
Not-a-pilot
I'm a fairly frequent visitor to Joburg and my experience of their ATC has been generally pretty good. There are certainly many destinations where I'm waiting for ATC to drop us in "it" but Joburg isn't one of them.
I was there shortly before this incident and, as far as I can remember, there is taxiway edge lighting but I don't think there was taxiway centre lighting or, if there was, it wasn't switched on.
I'm a fairly frequent visitor to Joburg and my experience of their ATC has been generally pretty good. There are certainly many destinations where I'm waiting for ATC to drop us in "it" but Joburg isn't one of them.
I was there shortly before this incident and, as far as I can remember, there is taxiway edge lighting but I don't think there was taxiway centre lighting or, if there was, it wasn't switched on.
Pegase Driver
I have only ever heard good things about the ATC at JNB
ATC is run by ATNS, one of the most respected Air Service Providers and probably, together with Ghana, the best there is in Africa.
Does not mean a error cannot be made, but my own " initial knee-jerk" reaction to this accident would not be thinking about ATC first.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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There have been a few unspecified remarks about edge/centreline lighting.
Is it possible to confirm what, if any, lighting exists on Taxiway/Taxilane/roadway 'M'?
Is it possible to confirm what, if any, lighting exists on Taxiway/Taxilane/roadway 'M'?
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My first post here. That taxi accident should not have happened.
1 Which pilot was taxing and who was PM.
2 PM should have seen the AP chart (TWY).
3 If they did not have a chart (Why did they not request one from their ops ). (Neglegence)
1 Which pilot was taxing and who was PM.
2 PM should have seen the AP chart (TWY).
3 If they did not have a chart (Why did they not request one from their ops ). (Neglegence)
My first post here.
That taxi accident should not have happened.
That taxi accident should not have happened.
1 Which pilot was taxing and who was PM.
2 PM should have seen the AP chart (TWY).
3 If they did not have a chart (Why did they not request one from their ops ). (Neglegence)
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Ham Phisted, Paxboy and ATC Watcher,
Thank you for the clarification and the comments about JNB ATC. It's good to know that the controllers are so highly regarded.
I should have realised that the controllers don't bear any responsibility for poor signage or taxiway lighting.
It will be interesting to see how the airport management company responds and, of course, what the final accident reports say.
Thank you for the clarification and the comments about JNB ATC. It's good to know that the controllers are so highly regarded.
I should have realised that the controllers don't bear any responsibility for poor signage or taxiway lighting.
It will be interesting to see how the airport management company responds and, of course, what the final accident reports say.
Paxing All Over The World
Not-a_Pilot
As with any corporate or govt body anywhere in the world. It will be someone else's fault. If a court of law says it was their fault. They will make the changes and pay the fines that the law states. But it still wasn't their fault. 
You'd never guess that I've worked in the corporate sector and local govt and charities would you? I recall the duty manager of the Berkeley Hotel (VERY swanky hotel in Knightsbridge,London) after I had apologised to a guest due to staff shortage, "The Berkeley is NEVER wrong" I didn't last very long. I was 21 when I learnt that lesson and 36 years later, it still holds.
It will be interesting to see how the airport management company responds ...
You'd never guess that I've worked in the corporate sector and local govt and charities would you? I recall the duty manager of the Berkeley Hotel (VERY swanky hotel in Knightsbridge,London) after I had apologised to a guest due to staff shortage, "The Berkeley is NEVER wrong" I didn't last very long. I was 21 when I learnt that lesson and 36 years later, it still holds.
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"crewmeal Any decision on what will happen to the aircraft? Is it a write off?"
I asked the same question a while ago was politely told to go back in my box as the handbags between posters continued.
So folks, as per crew meal, what's the deal with the aircraft.?
I asked the same question a while ago was politely told to go back in my box as the handbags between posters continued.
So folks, as per crew meal, what's the deal with the aircraft.?
what's the deal with the aircraft.?
Thanks wiggy. I think that's about the most sensible answer I'll get. I don't want to wade through all the bull on this thread to get a simple answer to a perfectly logical question.
crewmeal Any decision on what will happen to the aircraft? Is it a write off?
I have my own opinion of course, unless the direction and location indicators at the airport were deliberately misleading - and I doubt that - the means to navigate to the threshold of the runway that they were cleared to were available to the crew- if they were paying attention to where they were going. It might not have been easy, but it was possible.
But what do I know ? I wasn't there. But was anyone who is now pontificating on this forum ?
QED.
It might be logical,
but what does it matter,
the aircraft didn't cause the accident
the means to navigate to the threshold of the runway that they were cleared to were available to the crew- if they were paying attention to where they were going. It might not have been easy, but it was possible.
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The decision as to whether the aircraft is written off or not is often complex. When DOCU was gashed open on Genoa, it was repaired against expectation and remained in service for about 12 months afterwards before being sent to the desert. Much will depend on insurance and the cost to the company. Given that this particular airframe was not due to be retired it maybe a simple calculation of the cost of a D check for one of the aircraft scheduled to be retired, and the additional cost incurred by scrapping the aircraft in JNB rather than scrapping it in the desert.
Time will tell.
Time will tell.
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G-DOCU
When DOCU was gashed open on Genoa, it was repaired against expectation and remained in service for about 12 months afterwards before being sent to the desert.