Moremi Air van down
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Engine and prop a little too close to the ground on the C208, perhaps? That prop is in an ideal position to kick up crud into the intake. It was never a bush aircraft to begin with so the hoo-hah about using it as one is a little puzzling. Got to say it never really impressed me except for the driver's seat which was quite comfortable.
Está servira para distraerle.
Perhaps the answer lies not with the magnificent PT6 but rather with some element of human resources. Any pilot who has flow in Botswana should be able to tell you that just because the skies are blue does not mean than there are no significant dangers inherent in what would sometimes appear to be an inexperienced and over managed pilots' teething ground.
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I have heard that a Moremi Air pilot in a 210 nearly had a wheels up landing shortly before the Caravan crash. Can anyone confirm this?
Short of forgetting to put the landing gear down, how do you nearly have a wheels up landing?
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Not sure about nearly having a wheels up landing? Thats something that is pretty hard to confirm in a C210 other than by the own admission of the pilot.
I'm sick of people judging the way that they think we fly in Maun. The maintenance is pretty top notch here.
When you consider the amount of caravan movements in maun every day, throughout the 6 operators that have them in their fleet, its been a good run.
It is just sad that we have had 2 incidents in 18 months, whereas before that it has been a pretty clean record.
The training is good. You have a senior pilot sitting beside you for 50 to 100 hours (depending on company). Thats as much training needed to get a PPL.
As for the dirt getting into the engine, its actually pretty hard. The only way stuff gets sucked into the engine is either sustained reverse thrust on a dusty runway or when you put it into feather over a dusty spot.
Usually in dusty areas it is best to leave it out of feather so all the crap gets blown backwards rather than upwards.
Most of the strips now however have concrete pads to park over, combine that with parking into wind usually keeps dust out of the engines.
Unless you get a knobhead who pulls in front and sandblasts the hell out of you with his plane...
I've been looking into the reasons as to why this engine could go pop. I stress that this is my opinion and my opinion alone, its not that of any of the companies in Maun, let alone Moremi Air, nor the people investigating or any of the maintenance facilities in town.
With what I am aware both the Mack Air incident in 2009, and the Moremi Air one, they haven't found a cause to what stopped the engine.
I've been playing around with a few theories myself.
My first was perhaps a stuck bleed valve as it is kinda common, but that wouldn't be consistant with the (Not confirmed, just through the rumour tree) bang that was heard. If it was a bleed valve, it would cause Compressor stall/surge. None of which would just be a single bang, but rather a series of bangs.
It also leaves tell tale signs through the engine of the event occuring.
Something I have begun to settle on, and its something that is very hard to confirm, is the use of the inertial seperator. Some of the companies here put the seperator back into normal after becoming airborne, while others put it away once through 40kts on the ground roll.
Perhaps in certain conditions where the temp, density, airspeed and angle of airflow entering the engine is just right, when the seperator is put back to normal after becoming airborne, it is enough to cause a pressure shockwave and to cause a flameout.
It would explain why no trace is found in the engine....
Putting the seperator back to bypass in climb speed + high power settings requires quiet a big push. Surely as the seperator door slams shut, it must do something.
I realise that they are designed to be used in flight, but not usually under those conditions.
Of course it could be as simple as a turbine or compressor blade letting go, but that sort of thing will come out in due time and is easily found.
I'm sick of people judging the way that they think we fly in Maun. The maintenance is pretty top notch here.
When you consider the amount of caravan movements in maun every day, throughout the 6 operators that have them in their fleet, its been a good run.
It is just sad that we have had 2 incidents in 18 months, whereas before that it has been a pretty clean record.
The training is good. You have a senior pilot sitting beside you for 50 to 100 hours (depending on company). Thats as much training needed to get a PPL.
As for the dirt getting into the engine, its actually pretty hard. The only way stuff gets sucked into the engine is either sustained reverse thrust on a dusty runway or when you put it into feather over a dusty spot.
Usually in dusty areas it is best to leave it out of feather so all the crap gets blown backwards rather than upwards.
Most of the strips now however have concrete pads to park over, combine that with parking into wind usually keeps dust out of the engines.
Unless you get a knobhead who pulls in front and sandblasts the hell out of you with his plane...
I've been looking into the reasons as to why this engine could go pop. I stress that this is my opinion and my opinion alone, its not that of any of the companies in Maun, let alone Moremi Air, nor the people investigating or any of the maintenance facilities in town.
With what I am aware both the Mack Air incident in 2009, and the Moremi Air one, they haven't found a cause to what stopped the engine.
I've been playing around with a few theories myself.
My first was perhaps a stuck bleed valve as it is kinda common, but that wouldn't be consistant with the (Not confirmed, just through the rumour tree) bang that was heard. If it was a bleed valve, it would cause Compressor stall/surge. None of which would just be a single bang, but rather a series of bangs.
It also leaves tell tale signs through the engine of the event occuring.
Something I have begun to settle on, and its something that is very hard to confirm, is the use of the inertial seperator. Some of the companies here put the seperator back into normal after becoming airborne, while others put it away once through 40kts on the ground roll.
Perhaps in certain conditions where the temp, density, airspeed and angle of airflow entering the engine is just right, when the seperator is put back to normal after becoming airborne, it is enough to cause a pressure shockwave and to cause a flameout.
It would explain why no trace is found in the engine....
Putting the seperator back to bypass in climb speed + high power settings requires quiet a big push. Surely as the seperator door slams shut, it must do something.
I realise that they are designed to be used in flight, but not usually under those conditions.
Of course it could be as simple as a turbine or compressor blade letting go, but that sort of thing will come out in due time and is easily found.
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Just to clarify, my comments on pilot error and PT6 abuse were not intended as a comment on the standard of operations in Maun, but rather on the general causes of PT6 problems.
According to P&W statistics an average pilot would have to fly a PT6 for over 300 years (more than 10 working lifetimes) to experience a single failure.
I have met misguided pilots who refuse to use the separator during takeoff "because I need all the power I can get". These guys should be taken out and shot, the damage that they cause can kill innocent people weeks or even months later when the bearings finally let go.
According to P&W statistics an average pilot would have to fly a PT6 for over 300 years (more than 10 working lifetimes) to experience a single failure.
I have met misguided pilots who refuse to use the separator during takeoff "because I need all the power I can get". These guys should be taken out and shot, the damage that they cause can kill innocent people weeks or even months later when the bearings finally let go.
Está servira para distraerle.
http://www.pwc.ca/files/en/Know_your_PT6A.pdf
Page 17 refers.
My comments were also not intended as comments on the standard of operations in Maun but rather on the general causes of PT6 problems.
Page 17 refers.
My comments were also not intended as comments on the standard of operations in Maun but rather on the general causes of PT6 problems.
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And just for the record (in case nobody caught my drift) I was poking fun at Flyingharry for his first post being such...a bit rediculous if you ask me. Its almost like well lets kick them while they down and throw in that its 'rumored' that a 210 nearly had a wheels up before the Caravan went down...
Whats the point?? Anyway, moving on.
Maybe the caravan was never built to be a bush aircraft but it sure as hell works well as one! Lilflyboy I just have one question for your theory on the inertial seperator. (I am by no means an expert in any way or form)
But, Moremi would have their procedure on the use of the IS. So, assuming the pilot did not deviate from company procedures, could the conditions have been THAT perfect that on this particular take off for this particular flight, which im sure has been done countless times, it caused a flameout?! What would have been different from any other Caravan taking off that day with the same procedure?
I am simply posing the question and asking: Is it that volatile that opening/closing the IS half a second too early or too late, for example, could cause a flameout and consequent engine failure?
Whats the point?? Anyway, moving on.Maybe the caravan was never built to be a bush aircraft but it sure as hell works well as one! Lilflyboy I just have one question for your theory on the inertial seperator. (I am by no means an expert in any way or form)
But, Moremi would have their procedure on the use of the IS. So, assuming the pilot did not deviate from company procedures, could the conditions have been THAT perfect that on this particular take off for this particular flight, which im sure has been done countless times, it caused a flameout?! What would have been different from any other Caravan taking off that day with the same procedure?I am simply posing the question and asking: Is it that volatile that opening/closing the IS half a second too early or too late, for example, could cause a flameout and consequent engine failure?
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Please prove this wrong
I have been sitting back hearing rumours in the bush and from the old and bold in this business. I can sit back no longer having seen this report:
Facts surface despite wall of silence in Moremi Air Botswana Cessna crash - National Airlines/Airport | Examiner.com
I am suprised that it hasn't been mentioned before.
I did not have the privilege of knowing Martin. I am too long out of the business to know if there is an ounce of truth in this but personally do not wish to believe it. Please could someone in the know tell me that these figures do not add up. I was not qualified on this aircraft.
This is a rumour network and I have heard some rumours that I do not wish to pass on at this stage particularly regarding the management of this company and the part they played in the lead up to the accident.
My condolences to all family and friends of those who died.
Facts surface despite wall of silence in Moremi Air Botswana Cessna crash - National Airlines/Airport | Examiner.com
I am suprised that it hasn't been mentioned before.
I did not have the privilege of knowing Martin. I am too long out of the business to know if there is an ounce of truth in this but personally do not wish to believe it. Please could someone in the know tell me that these figures do not add up. I was not qualified on this aircraft.
This is a rumour network and I have heard some rumours that I do not wish to pass on at this stage particularly regarding the management of this company and the part they played in the lead up to the accident.
My condolences to all family and friends of those who died.
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His figures are bull****.
I was in there 1hr prior to the accident. It would have been 32 degrees max that day.
It was not a crosswind, the wind was a slight left to right crosswind, but the headwind component would have roughly been between 5-8kts. That is the prevailing wind out of there.
Concerning the two local passengers, they very rarely carry baggage.
800lbs of fuel is a very conservative estimate. Thats 2hrs 40 mins flying. I would figure between 600-700 more likely with the remaining flight being only around 35mins.
Even with his figures, the runway needed would be around 850m needed to clear a 50ft obstacle. The runway is 850m.
All this is irrelivant as it was not a weight issue that caused this accident.
@ CVS, in short, yes. With all the different variables that I listed, it would be very rare for them to all line up. But from what I hear, his procedure is to put the IS into normal at 1000ft, which ruins my theory!
I had a chance to chat to a few people in the know. From the sounds of it, there was something that went pop in the engine, so its a case of just wait and see from P&W. No more theorys from me!
I was in there 1hr prior to the accident. It would have been 32 degrees max that day.
It was not a crosswind, the wind was a slight left to right crosswind, but the headwind component would have roughly been between 5-8kts. That is the prevailing wind out of there.
Concerning the two local passengers, they very rarely carry baggage.
800lbs of fuel is a very conservative estimate. Thats 2hrs 40 mins flying. I would figure between 600-700 more likely with the remaining flight being only around 35mins.
Even with his figures, the runway needed would be around 850m needed to clear a 50ft obstacle. The runway is 850m.
All this is irrelivant as it was not a weight issue that caused this accident.
@ CVS, in short, yes. With all the different variables that I listed, it would be very rare for them to all line up. But from what I hear, his procedure is to put the IS into normal at 1000ft, which ruins my theory!
I had a chance to chat to a few people in the know. From the sounds of it, there was something that went pop in the engine, so its a case of just wait and see from P&W. No more theorys from me!
Está servira para distraerle.
If a pilot were to call up his operations control, in Maun for the sake of idle example, from a far off dirt strip in the Botswana outback and explain very carefully that in reality, using actual or standard weights whichever were the least limiting and thus most in the company's favour, he was over WAT, MTOW or MLW or whatever, would he get a pat on the back for safety consciousness? Which company would then dispatch a PA235, Cherokee 6 or similar to ferry the passengers' baggage to the next destination thereby permitting, in this totally spurious example, a legal or safe departure of the master machine at least inconvenience to the clients?
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I can hand on heart say that even before this happened, my company would have dispatched another plane.
I have taken it upon myself to leave passengers behind, and then come back for them a little while later because I wasn't happy with the load.
I know that most of the other operators would be in the same boat too.
Times have changed in Maun. Its not what it used to be.
I have taken it upon myself to leave passengers behind, and then come back for them a little while later because I wasn't happy with the load.
I know that most of the other operators would be in the same boat too.
Times have changed in Maun. Its not what it used to be.
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It takes longer than a month to get your airside pass in Botswana - I did a fair stint in Botswana including Maun, all in all, the companies are fairly good - but you allways get a few clowns.
Just on what I have seen in the press - inflight FIRE rings bells! rumour 1 guy jumped out before it hit the ground & survivours say there were flames as well.
I don't believe that they will get an answer on this as there is no real answer on the in flight fire and crash of A2 -DBH crash that was seen by quite a few of us, that to was fatal!
Just on what I have seen in the press - inflight FIRE rings bells! rumour 1 guy jumped out before it hit the ground & survivours say there were flames as well.
I don't believe that they will get an answer on this as there is no real answer on the in flight fire and crash of A2 -DBH crash that was seen by quite a few of us, that to was fatal!
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That article is insane - In spite of the title stating "Facts surface despite wall of silence.." the only "facts" are comments from what appears to be a Maun based pilot who doesn't know too much about the caravan or the local operations. Firstly 11 out of Xakanaxa on a caravan is by no means unusual, so for him to state "I have yet to talk to any pilot who would take this payload out of Xakanaxa" is blatant lie, or he doesn't actually operate out of Maun and is therefore talking out of his ass. As Lilflyboy states, his figures are WAY off, especially as AKD also had the wing fence modifications which increased the payload to over 9000lbs. As for these 50ft trees, anyone who has actually been to Xakanaxa knows that this is an exaggeration but then again, if this idiot pilot is in fact based in Maun, and has flown out of Xakanaxa, given his apparent vast knowledge and excellent mathematical skills.. he probably took off in the wrong direction and yes, then he would have encountered some pretty spectacular trees.
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You might want to mention to him that its not a 15 seat aircraft either. Unless there is a seat in there that I don't know about...
12 in the back and 2 crew seats.
12 in the back and 2 crew seats.
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Apologies for the thread drift but I didn't know that A2-DBH had crashed. That was a C90 I used to fly out of Gabs. Can anyone shed some light on what happened and who was involved?
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Wrong Rego
HBD or HDB sorry! Chopper 333. Sorry mate both rego,s came in close together ownd by same guy at the time - not NF but he had some of DBH the C90.
But Back On Subject,
That list of people they tried to contact was well a little odd, suprised Bill problem solvers Scott was not on top of the list!
Well good on Mark for a reply and not getting out of zone much, But OB1, and C130 and being in the BDF for many a year, still not a good start - why not try Pratt or Cessna for a veiw and see what they say?? ( in a month???)
But Back On Subject,
That list of people they tried to contact was well a little odd, suprised Bill problem solvers Scott was not on top of the list!
Well good on Mark for a reply and not getting out of zone much, But OB1, and C130 and being in the BDF for many a year, still not a good start - why not try Pratt or Cessna for a veiw and see what they say?? ( in a month???)
Last edited by ampk; 27th Nov 2011 at 11:42. Reason: Wrong Rego