1time resignations
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1time requirements
One wonders how many of the "160" new CV's actually meets or warrants a interview standard? I bet lots of fresh cpl's with 1000hrs or less are on that list. Anyone know how many crew 1time are actually looking to take on over the next few months?
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The nest has been rattled and the WORKER bees are not happy 
A basic medical aid and pension fund ( one would presume) wont cut it.
Pay the pilots ( not just training captains) more money
A basic medical aid and pension fund ( one would presume) wont cut it.
Pay the pilots ( not just training captains) more money
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Sounds like the "If you don't like it, then leave." option being thrown out there again. I'd like to see the place catch a wake-up, I really do. I just don't see it ever being a longterm employment option. Good place to get medium jet time quickly, and then bugger-off someplace else that will treat you like the professional that you are.
Option 2
Option 2
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cue ball, upper managment never took their eye off the ball, they were watching it all the time, and they were even warned it was coming at them. FAST! but they kept their hands in their pockets and let the ball hit them in the face! HARD! 
so now with a big fat black eye, they are trying to fix things, and yes you are right, it doesn't happen over night and no one expects it to, but pilots leave virtually over night and with hardly a training dept left to train new recruits, what to do??
with the attitude of 'there are 2 options, stay or go, choose one', thats the moronic attitude that got them into this mess in the first place.
serves them right and no one is going to feel sorry for them and stay just because they 'sweeten the deal' a bit. too little too late. the damge has been done.
the ball is slowly moving to the pilots side of the court and its time they tighten the screws. the younger guys that are there will leave and the ones that don't will retire in the next few years. albeit for the one or two that love it. its a stepping stone airline and great for that purpose from the pilots perspective, but for upper management, here's another warning, when the water rises above those stepping stones, and those that were there have gone, the rest will be crossing using a bridge and not the crappy stepping stones you once abused. best you build your bridge now.
and lastly, those that work there do love their job, more than most, but you don't have to love who you do that job for.
so now with a big fat black eye, they are trying to fix things, and yes you are right, it doesn't happen over night and no one expects it to, but pilots leave virtually over night and with hardly a training dept left to train new recruits, what to do??
with the attitude of 'there are 2 options, stay or go, choose one', thats the moronic attitude that got them into this mess in the first place.
serves them right and no one is going to feel sorry for them and stay just because they 'sweeten the deal' a bit. too little too late. the damge has been done.
the ball is slowly moving to the pilots side of the court and its time they tighten the screws. the younger guys that are there will leave and the ones that don't will retire in the next few years. albeit for the one or two that love it. its a stepping stone airline and great for that purpose from the pilots perspective, but for upper management, here's another warning, when the water rises above those stepping stones, and those that were there have gone, the rest will be crossing using a bridge and not the crappy stepping stones you once abused. best you build your bridge now.
and lastly, those that work there do love their job, more than most, but you don't have to love who you do that job for.
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I hear what you are saying and you quite entitled to your opinion, the point I was trying to make is that this is not a time for negativity, albeit difficult at this stage not to be negative. One must remember that this a very young company that have grown at a fairly rapid rate, 1 time does not have 50+ years of operating experience behind them like Comair or SAA does.In fact it wasn't too long ago that Comair were in a very similar situation to 1 time in terms of pilots leaving and being unhappy with management( 30% attrition rate if memory serves me correctly).This company still has a lot to learn granted but I think that they are trying and if they make a few improvements then it may well become a career airline for some. If you look at Comair they still have pilots that leave and conversely some that stay until they retire. So the question begs what is a career airline? I think that is a purely subjective question and is different for every individual, there are even some that have left SAA not only for other airlines but have moved back to charter. So at the end of the day you have the choices I mentioned in my previous post, and if you feel you need to leave then do so and good luck to you. If you want to stay then be postive and believe that the situation will come right and it will become the happy company that it once was.
I hear what you are saying and you quite entitled to your opinion, the point I was trying to make is that this is not a time for negativity, albeit difficult at this stage not to be negative. One must remember that this a very young company that have grown at a fairly rapid rate, 1 time does not have 50+ years of operating experience behind them like Comair or SAA does.In fact it wasn't too long ago that Comair were in a very similar situation to 1 time in terms of pilots leaving and being unhappy with management( 30% attrition rate if memory serves me correctly).This company still has a lot to learn granted but I think that they are trying and if they make a few improvements then it may well become a career airline for some. If you look at Comair they still have pilots that leave and conversely some that stay until they retire. So the question begs what is a career airline? I think that is a purely subjective question and is different for every individual, there are even some that have left SAA not only for other airlines but have moved back to charter. So at the end of the day you have the choices I mentioned in my previous post, and if you feel you need to leave then do so and good luck to you. If you want to stay then be postive and believe that the situation will come right and it will become the happy company that it once was.
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.This company still has a lot to learn granted but I think that they are trying
Anybody who has been an airline manager for more than a week would have learned what a market related salary is. You honestly cant be serious in implying that pilots get paid bad salaries and treated badly because management hasnt yet learned how to make employees happy . 1time like all the others will milk the pilots for as little as possible for as long as possible.
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In answer to your question I am neither.
Whether these people had any idea of market related salaries I am not so sure. We told the DFO a long time ago about the salaries and he acknowleged it but whether it went into the boardroom is the big question . The MD ( who is now in direct contact with the pilots forum) asked to be given a comparison of salaries from SAX and Comair, which was duly done and we await the reaction. I think they got a big fright when they were informed by flight ops that the expansion plans could not be accomadated because of lack of crew.
In answer to your question I am neither.
Whether these people had any idea of market related salaries I am not so sure. We told the DFO a long time ago about the salaries and he acknowleged it but whether it went into the boardroom is the big question . The MD ( who is now in direct contact with the pilots forum) asked to be given a comparison of salaries from SAX and Comair, which was duly done and we await the reaction. I think they got a big fright when they were informed by flight ops that the expansion plans could not be accomadated because of lack of crew.
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Guys, if anybody really believes that management cares even slightly about your issues, it's time to wake up. They will do the absolute minimum to keep the minimum number of crew required to operate the routes, that is all. It's just business, nothing personal. The only option is to push (some would say fight) back in the only legit way you can.
All companies suffer from the same problems to a greater or lesser degree - 1time is clearly going for the model operated by Nationwide, that is 'Turnover is good because we can pay them less'. It serves them well in times of average to low demand, but bites them when times pick up (for us).
If you really want to make it a consistently better place to work, you're going to have to be very, very focused, consistent, and firm with them. Simply standing back and hoping they mean well will never, ever work, regardless of any 'frights' you think they may have got now. You'll just live in hope, with no return on your experience or investment of time and money spent on your career. This forum has heard plenty of union-like rallying cries (and here's yet another), but forceful collective action is the only proven way to reliably effect change. Anything else is luck and wishful thinking.
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All companies suffer from the same problems to a greater or lesser degree - 1time is clearly going for the model operated by Nationwide, that is 'Turnover is good because we can pay them less'. It serves them well in times of average to low demand, but bites them when times pick up (for us).
If you really want to make it a consistently better place to work, you're going to have to be very, very focused, consistent, and firm with them. Simply standing back and hoping they mean well will never, ever work, regardless of any 'frights' you think they may have got now. You'll just live in hope, with no return on your experience or investment of time and money spent on your career. This forum has heard plenty of union-like rallying cries (and here's yet another), but forceful collective action is the only proven way to reliably effect change. Anything else is luck and wishful thinking.
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I agree with you Shrike, I just don't know if we will get any sort of union online in time. One of the younger chaps told me the other day: "I shut-up, I do my job professionally, and when the time comes, I leave."
Voting with feet is for now the most embraced reaction.
Voting with feet is for now the most embraced reaction.
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Yes Shrike speaks truth.
I can't judge if it was different in the past, but in times like these, this seems to be the status quo and most of us will have to deal with it the best way we can. It is indeed also difficult to have the courage to transfer these things from a personal level to a group level and which attitude to adopt.
Keeping your mouth shut and doing your job just in order to leave for a seemingly better job - does that really make things better ? The very few companies that actually transformed for better conditions went through a process where a group of people actually stood together and fought for better conditions - and I am sure it also came at a price which in the long run seems to be well worth it - I don't think the guys at SAA are complaining. The biggest problem is that an individual or two can not accomplish this by themselves - the whole group needs to be behind them and it has to be extremely well organized.
I know it is wishful thinking - the problem is the individual: speaking under 4 eyes everybody voices equal feelings and there is mutual agreement. When push comes to shove many of those colleagues suddenly keep their mouth shut or might even back-stab you and turn 180°- no backbone whatsoever, making those that had the courage of initiative stand there like idiots. I have been in that situation myself (in a small scale) and to be honest - that is a true sign that something is very wrong in that working environment and it is time to take your hat. If you don't stand behind the people that are trying to improve the conditions of you workspace or push your demands then you are simply part of the problem. The other question is - do these people actually exist @1time - maybe they simply don't because nobody believes it is worthwhile. Maybe the basic business model of a low-cost does not allow any other possibility.
The biggest problem of the pilot is the other pilot - but guys, if you don't make a case and start working together outside the flightdeck you will achieve nothing. Ideally South Africa does need a pilots union. It is amazing what unions in other countries have achieved and the power they have i.e. Vereinigung Cockpit in Germany (It's the Lufthansa pilots union which is also open to all other pilots of other companies in the country - the last strike did achieve that their AItalia colleagues get the same contracts and benefits as themselves after the takeover and at the same time securing their own jobs). I know taking that example is far fetched - however even they started out as a small institution at one point in history.
I can't judge if it was different in the past, but in times like these, this seems to be the status quo and most of us will have to deal with it the best way we can. It is indeed also difficult to have the courage to transfer these things from a personal level to a group level and which attitude to adopt.
Keeping your mouth shut and doing your job just in order to leave for a seemingly better job - does that really make things better ? The very few companies that actually transformed for better conditions went through a process where a group of people actually stood together and fought for better conditions - and I am sure it also came at a price which in the long run seems to be well worth it - I don't think the guys at SAA are complaining. The biggest problem is that an individual or two can not accomplish this by themselves - the whole group needs to be behind them and it has to be extremely well organized.
I know it is wishful thinking - the problem is the individual: speaking under 4 eyes everybody voices equal feelings and there is mutual agreement. When push comes to shove many of those colleagues suddenly keep their mouth shut or might even back-stab you and turn 180°- no backbone whatsoever, making those that had the courage of initiative stand there like idiots. I have been in that situation myself (in a small scale) and to be honest - that is a true sign that something is very wrong in that working environment and it is time to take your hat. If you don't stand behind the people that are trying to improve the conditions of you workspace or push your demands then you are simply part of the problem. The other question is - do these people actually exist @1time - maybe they simply don't because nobody believes it is worthwhile. Maybe the basic business model of a low-cost does not allow any other possibility.
The biggest problem of the pilot is the other pilot - but guys, if you don't make a case and start working together outside the flightdeck you will achieve nothing. Ideally South Africa does need a pilots union. It is amazing what unions in other countries have achieved and the power they have i.e. Vereinigung Cockpit in Germany (It's the Lufthansa pilots union which is also open to all other pilots of other companies in the country - the last strike did achieve that their AItalia colleagues get the same contracts and benefits as themselves after the takeover and at the same time securing their own jobs). I know taking that example is far fetched - however even they started out as a small institution at one point in history.
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I have heard of ALPA but I have never seen or heard them organize a distinct plan of forced action that will make an airline reconsider its terms if they want to keep operating.
Of course you always want to keep a fine line - no use in becoming a "parasite or virus" and kill your host i.e. the hand that feeds you. But that is for them to evaluate and see what measures would prove effective - that is what they are there for. Do they have the power ?
The example I brought up with Vereinigung Cockpit is another extreme on the the other side of the spectrum - a union almost too powerful to the point of them becoming extremely greedy but it seems to work for them amazingly well - which is why the planes WILL confidently stay on the ground if they call for a strike. They have managed to avert any measures that would diminish their members lifestyle. Of course when times are bad they would also agree as a collective to abstain a pay-raise in order to help the company - common sense. It promotes a sane give and take and reading this and other threads shows that there is a lack of real counterbalance to the situation many colleagues are experiencing in S.A.
Edit: Which would actually raise the question - how many pilots of 1time are actually active members of ALPA ? If everybody would join for the common cause I am sure that they could use ALPA as a forum to push for their interests in a responsible manner. A union is only as powerful as the solidarity of its members.
Of course you always want to keep a fine line - no use in becoming a "parasite or virus" and kill your host i.e. the hand that feeds you. But that is for them to evaluate and see what measures would prove effective - that is what they are there for. Do they have the power ?
The example I brought up with Vereinigung Cockpit is another extreme on the the other side of the spectrum - a union almost too powerful to the point of them becoming extremely greedy but it seems to work for them amazingly well - which is why the planes WILL confidently stay on the ground if they call for a strike. They have managed to avert any measures that would diminish their members lifestyle. Of course when times are bad they would also agree as a collective to abstain a pay-raise in order to help the company - common sense. It promotes a sane give and take and reading this and other threads shows that there is a lack of real counterbalance to the situation many colleagues are experiencing in S.A.
Edit: Which would actually raise the question - how many pilots of 1time are actually active members of ALPA ? If everybody would join for the common cause I am sure that they could use ALPA as a forum to push for their interests in a responsible manner. A union is only as powerful as the solidarity of its members.
Last edited by Propellerpilot; 19th Nov 2010 at 14:09.
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I have heard of ALPA but I have never seen or heard them organize a distinct plan of forced action that will make an airline reconsider its terms if they want to keep operating.
Have a look at the branches that form the Alpa union. SAAPA being the largest similiar to the union you mention in Germany, Cpa, Saxpa and Mango. So in essence without a voice the plight of the 1 Time guys will fall on deaf ears!
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Thanks for the info. Exactly that is what I wanted to express and it is good to know the others are already there. So 1time - the institution is already there - so it's up to you to form your own branch within. Better crew catering and a new crew bus will be the least of the companies worries, believe me - that's peanuts.
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I don't know if we could all agree on an exact list of the South African companies that treat their pilots in a professional manner, but maybe we can take a look at three companies: SAA, SAX, and Comair. To the best of my knowledge, all have a high percentage of union membership, and all are members of ALPA-SA; SAAPA, SAXPA, and the CPA. Arguably, these three do an acceptable job in this regard.
A common trend? You decide....
And whilst individuals may have problems with ALPA, or union membership in general, it should be noted that without collective bargaining, you are nothing. Ergo, your individual problems with ALPA, or unions in general, should take a back seat in favour of at least presenting a united front. Believe me, ALPA, being aviation specific, is the most appropriate, in my very humble (I mean that) opinion. I have nothing to do with them, apart from being a member. I believe the facts back me up though.
A common trend? You decide....
And whilst individuals may have problems with ALPA, or union membership in general, it should be noted that without collective bargaining, you are nothing. Ergo, your individual problems with ALPA, or unions in general, should take a back seat in favour of at least presenting a united front. Believe me, ALPA, being aviation specific, is the most appropriate, in my very humble (I mean that) opinion. I have nothing to do with them, apart from being a member. I believe the facts back me up though.
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My 2 cents: Its simply a case of Musical Chairs ! This was expected after the world cup, new possibilities and careers at greener grass. Normally the grass is greener because there's more sh&#.
But hey, when in heavens name are pilots going to realize that the airlines are not the alpha and omega ! Well, for one in SA and the USA definitely, flying a Lear or Hawker or citation or in some cases even a proper prop job for more than a feeder airline captains salary aint bad !
Perhaps the media, Hollywood and the flying schools are the big culprits. youngsters see the "glamour" of a smartly dressed individual walking through a airport with sexy hosties following in hot pursuit!
Flying schools are the biggest culprit, spin money by selling a image, just walk past any flying school and see the blokes hang out there with bars down their skinny arms, shoulders so broad they cannot walk through the door ! These clowns end up in the airlines with a huge attitude and expect the Hollywood Picture, then reality strikes, hard work for little pay, plastic bread and muffins for crew meals, nasty hosties and then the bitching start !
Airlines ? really, is it the Alpha and Omega ! There are a lot of fun to be had and great flying outside the Airlines, and guess what, often for more money and a better lifestyle! But Nooooooooo we want the Hollywood Picture, the mentality created by the flying school, no wonder we are getting the standard of instructors we have in the airlines, it turns into just one big flying school ! Never moved away from that mentality due to the lack of interest to see and experience what else Aviation has to offer but Airlines ! These companies are often run by real business people and treat you like adults, you learn to see the bigger picture.
But Noooooooo, lets join the airlines and bitch about our crew meals, hosties, salaries, schedules and JVJ ! Come on guys flying is fun and a great place to be ! Stick together, no matter where we are, we are Brothers and Sisters and the Musical Chairs game will always be there !
If some bloke with big kahunas start a Company and offer us the job, its our choice to be there, or else we all would have owned companies and the competition would have killed us all !
The trick is to find your happy place in aviation !
But hey, when in heavens name are pilots going to realize that the airlines are not the alpha and omega ! Well, for one in SA and the USA definitely, flying a Lear or Hawker or citation or in some cases even a proper prop job for more than a feeder airline captains salary aint bad !
Perhaps the media, Hollywood and the flying schools are the big culprits. youngsters see the "glamour" of a smartly dressed individual walking through a airport with sexy hosties following in hot pursuit!
Flying schools are the biggest culprit, spin money by selling a image, just walk past any flying school and see the blokes hang out there with bars down their skinny arms, shoulders so broad they cannot walk through the door ! These clowns end up in the airlines with a huge attitude and expect the Hollywood Picture, then reality strikes, hard work for little pay, plastic bread and muffins for crew meals, nasty hosties and then the bitching start !
Airlines ? really, is it the Alpha and Omega ! There are a lot of fun to be had and great flying outside the Airlines, and guess what, often for more money and a better lifestyle! But Nooooooooo we want the Hollywood Picture, the mentality created by the flying school, no wonder we are getting the standard of instructors we have in the airlines, it turns into just one big flying school ! Never moved away from that mentality due to the lack of interest to see and experience what else Aviation has to offer but Airlines ! These companies are often run by real business people and treat you like adults, you learn to see the bigger picture.
But Noooooooo, lets join the airlines and bitch about our crew meals, hosties, salaries, schedules and JVJ ! Come on guys flying is fun and a great place to be ! Stick together, no matter where we are, we are Brothers and Sisters and the Musical Chairs game will always be there !
If some bloke with big kahunas start a Company and offer us the job, its our choice to be there, or else we all would have owned companies and the competition would have killed us all !
The trick is to find your happy place in aviation !
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As any fule no..... (Back in the jug again ) Molesworth?
Actually, since airlines have the most number of pilots employed, naturally most pilots will be employed by them. It's kind of....logical? And I'll bet that EVERY airline pilot has long had any 'Hollywood' notions washed out of them, in 99.9% of cases before even making it into an airline. Thats if they had those misconceptions in the first place. So, we just try to make the job a little better, and easier on our families. It's nothing special. If you don't like reading about airline pilots problems, it may help to not read this thread
Sorry, reality check.
) Molesworth?Actually, since airlines have the most number of pilots employed, naturally most pilots will be employed by them. It's kind of....logical? And I'll bet that EVERY airline pilot has long had any 'Hollywood' notions washed out of them, in 99.9% of cases before even making it into an airline. Thats if they had those misconceptions in the first place. So, we just try to make the job a little better, and easier on our families. It's nothing special. If you don't like reading about airline pilots problems, it may help to not read this thread
Sorry, reality check.