First Flight - New Production Series 400 Twin Otter
All I said was that it was ugly as sin and slow. Two facts that you cannot change.
Last edited by flyhardmo; 23rd Apr 2010 at 15:22.
How can anybody of normal perception think that one of these is ugly.
Beats me.
Never had the chance to fly in one (yet) but have had the pleasure of seeing one transit the airspace I was looking after, once.
They look perfect for the job they were designed for, like any of the DHC a/c, and not at all unattractive.
Sorry.
But I like them, and what they represent.
Beats me.
Never had the chance to fly in one (yet) but have had the pleasure of seeing one transit the airspace I was looking after, once.
They look perfect for the job they were designed for, like any of the DHC a/c, and not at all unattractive.
Don' bother replying until you have had first hand experience at the controls.
But I like them, and what they represent.
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Airplanes are Machines....
....machines are not beautiful except in their functionality, and, reliability. They are not built to be beautiful, but made to look as beautiful as practical with paint and adornment. The true beauty of a machine is in it’s ability to perform what humans wish it to perform. In that, the Twin Otter is at the top of it’s class. More beautiful than any other of it’s kind.
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Beauty is only skin-deep but...
Ugly goes right to the bone! And, yes, that is one ugly aircraft! If it were a girl you would say, "a very nice personality..." or "kind to children and small animals..." really meaning "ugly enough to crack glass!" But what of that?
If you know how to ask nicely it will do all sorts of amazing tricks for you. What some guys overlook, though, is that it's a high-wing design that sits way high up off the ground so no "land and fahgeddaboutit" as with a Cessna 402 or a Beech Baron. No, you have to fly it all the way to the parking stand when the balmy desert breeze is blowing hard enough to pull the fur off the camel spiders. Many is the time I told my FO not to jinx us when he or she said, "Nice landing." It ain't landed until it's tied down!
If you know how to ask nicely it will do all sorts of amazing tricks for you. What some guys overlook, though, is that it's a high-wing design that sits way high up off the ground so no "land and fahgeddaboutit" as with a Cessna 402 or a Beech Baron. No, you have to fly it all the way to the parking stand when the balmy desert breeze is blowing hard enough to pull the fur off the camel spiders. Many is the time I told my FO not to jinx us when he or she said, "Nice landing." It ain't landed until it's tied down!
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The results are in....
And there you have it Mike,
Besides one insignificant TROLL, there is a unanimous agreement that what you and Viking have achieved is a work of art and a workhorse.
The Twotter is one of a kind and there is nothing that can replace her. I agree with a lot of sentiments here that given the right salary, (unfortunately reality is Kids and a mortgage), I would gladly swap my shiny .82 Tube for 150Kts and a 400m runway.
Sir O
Besides one insignificant TROLL, there is a unanimous agreement that what you and Viking have achieved is a work of art and a workhorse.
The Twotter is one of a kind and there is nothing that can replace her. I agree with a lot of sentiments here that given the right salary, (unfortunately reality is Kids and a mortgage), I would gladly swap my shiny .82 Tube for 150Kts and a 400m runway.
Sir O
I first had a flight in a Twotter in 1967 and my first maintenance course on them in 1969. In the ensuing years I have spent a lot of time looking after them in many countries and love them to bits. I know, as does Michael, how much punishment they can be given and still come back for more, and will carry anything which can be put in them with a ferry weight of 17500lb
No, they are not really maintenance friendly but have heaps of character and a presence which cannot be ignored and as such is my favourite aircraft.
The -400 is testament that the original design was functional, and I expect they will be still flying long after I have shuffled my mortal coil as I daresay there is another 50 years of flying in the type yet, maybe as a -500 !!
The ultimate flying utility truck, ugly yet beautiful, and very functional.
No, they are not really maintenance friendly but have heaps of character and a presence which cannot be ignored and as such is my favourite aircraft.
The -400 is testament that the original design was functional, and I expect they will be still flying long after I have shuffled my mortal coil as I daresay there is another 50 years of flying in the type yet, maybe as a -500 !!
The ultimate flying utility truck, ugly yet beautiful, and very functional.
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Sir Osis....We pay $153,000 USD per annum....
...for a Twin Otter captain and work them about 4 or 5 months out of 12. About 80 to 150 flight hrs each month. Salary + full med + per diem. No tax exemption. Travel and accommodations paid. Very specialized flying. Only U.S. citizens need apply though, but I'm working on that.
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Many are called...
Is this the same Cave Troll who shows up elsewhere with the designation "Ground School"? Perhaps we can write him off as knowing very, very little about anything to do with the sort of work a Twotter does! Now he is less ignorant but there must be plenty more where that came from to take such a stance toward this wonderful machine.
I am slightly biased, having cut my teeth on the DHC-3 as a mechanic, before I became a pilot. Ahh, DeHavilland!
I was with a certain British operator flying Twotters when a Brit joined us to fly our King Air 200. In his simple mind his 250-knot airplane gave him such massive cred compared to my 166-knot airplane that he could be ever so condescending. Well, aside from being a Brit with a Brit ATPL where I only had an FAA ATP, which everyone knows is ever so easy to get! Derr...
Of course I didn't bother to point out to the poor simpleton that I did have a rating on the Citation or that I had just been tooling around in a Cessna 441 with souped-up engines that would do 295 knots and leave a King Air for dead but just left him basking in his warm pool of pee.
As things developed the Company asked me to check out in the King Air, when to his surprise I could actually cope with the challenge of its blinding speed, yawn... Then the fun really started when I checked out on the Dornier 328 and ended up with Mr King Air Pilot in the RHS! Second place to a Twotter pilot! He just about lost his mind over that one, the muppet.
The fact is that you can take a lot of people and put them in a King Air or a Cessna Citation, even, with absolutely no problem at all but they might not be able to master a Twotter and its quirky ways, demanding certain stick-and-rudder skills as it does. It is "horses for courses" when to operate into or out of a short strip on a blazing hot day in a fully-loaded Twotter, that might look simple but in reality you still have to hit the numbers just right, same as operating an airliner.
It is very much like the stupid idea many airplane drivers have that flying helicopters is somehow much less demanding, to think that because a Twotter is slow and has fixed gear, that must make it easy to operate. Once you have mastered it then you can make it look easy but it can eat some newbie's lunch! We even had a retired Air Farce T-39 pilot manage to drag a wingtip on a Twotter when it got away from him. Oops.
I am slightly biased, having cut my teeth on the DHC-3 as a mechanic, before I became a pilot. Ahh, DeHavilland!
I was with a certain British operator flying Twotters when a Brit joined us to fly our King Air 200. In his simple mind his 250-knot airplane gave him such massive cred compared to my 166-knot airplane that he could be ever so condescending. Well, aside from being a Brit with a Brit ATPL where I only had an FAA ATP, which everyone knows is ever so easy to get! Derr...
Of course I didn't bother to point out to the poor simpleton that I did have a rating on the Citation or that I had just been tooling around in a Cessna 441 with souped-up engines that would do 295 knots and leave a King Air for dead but just left him basking in his warm pool of pee.
As things developed the Company asked me to check out in the King Air, when to his surprise I could actually cope with the challenge of its blinding speed, yawn... Then the fun really started when I checked out on the Dornier 328 and ended up with Mr King Air Pilot in the RHS! Second place to a Twotter pilot! He just about lost his mind over that one, the muppet.
The fact is that you can take a lot of people and put them in a King Air or a Cessna Citation, even, with absolutely no problem at all but they might not be able to master a Twotter and its quirky ways, demanding certain stick-and-rudder skills as it does. It is "horses for courses" when to operate into or out of a short strip on a blazing hot day in a fully-loaded Twotter, that might look simple but in reality you still have to hit the numbers just right, same as operating an airliner.
It is very much like the stupid idea many airplane drivers have that flying helicopters is somehow much less demanding, to think that because a Twotter is slow and has fixed gear, that must make it easy to operate. Once you have mastered it then you can make it look easy but it can eat some newbie's lunch! We even had a retired Air Farce T-39 pilot manage to drag a wingtip on a Twotter when it got away from him. Oops.
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CT
Please tell me you're not calling a C208 a bush aircraft. They're just too soft and not up to the job for really hairy conditions. The Twotter, on the other hand, eats it up with a spoon.
If you're referring to a PC6 we may have some common ground...
Cue outraged frothing from the 'Van drivers....
Please tell me you're not calling a C208 a bush aircraft. They're just too soft and not up to the job for really hairy conditions. The Twotter, on the other hand, eats it up with a spoon.
If you're referring to a PC6 we may have some common ground...
Cue outraged frothing from the 'Van drivers....
Last edited by Cardinal Puff; 24th Apr 2010 at 18:46.
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Guys, why are you even reacting to people like CT? He can't be serious, probably just a wind up.
I have never flown a Twin Otter. Like most other pilots here, I have flown a lot of different planes. And I do fondly remember my times in the Caravan, even if it doesn't match the Twotter specs. What I want to say is, as a good pilot, one certainly enjoys operating any good aircraft in the environment it is made for.
On the other hand, neither is it specially enjoyable to fly 400NM+ in a STOL plane nor is it a joy to land a citation on a 1300 m gravel strip.
But then again, you do get those guys, that always have to look up to the next faster and larger type. What do they do, once (if ever) they sit in a 747?
I have never flown a Twin Otter. Like most other pilots here, I have flown a lot of different planes. And I do fondly remember my times in the Caravan, even if it doesn't match the Twotter specs. What I want to say is, as a good pilot, one certainly enjoys operating any good aircraft in the environment it is made for.
On the other hand, neither is it specially enjoyable to fly 400NM+ in a STOL plane nor is it a joy to land a citation on a 1300 m gravel strip.
But then again, you do get those guys, that always have to look up to the next faster and larger type. What do they do, once (if ever) they sit in a 747?
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We had a run from Lagos to Jos in a Twotter, when sometimes you could get very strong winds. There you sat looking at a GPS speed readout of 130 knots as Nigeria crawled past, the River Niger, Bida, Abuja, the little railway station at the foot of the Jos Plateau, out in the distance Jos Aiport, just another ten or fifteen minutes to go now...
One I looked out the window to see a small, grey object flying formation with the Twotter. Yes, it was my brain, bored out of my skull. Thank God for the BBC World Service on the HF!
Going back to Lagos, 200 knots GS! Bwoah-ey!
Later, in the Dornier 328Jet I was feeling sorry for myself because it would only do .66 Mach, when that also seemed slow on a trip from Gao to Marrakech. It really is all relative.
One I looked out the window to see a small, grey object flying formation with the Twotter. Yes, it was my brain, bored out of my skull. Thank God for the BBC World Service on the HF!
Going back to Lagos, 200 knots GS! Bwoah-ey!
Later, in the Dornier 328Jet I was feeling sorry for myself because it would only do .66 Mach, when that also seemed slow on a trip from Gao to Marrakech. It really is all relative.
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As I said in my previous post. "Touchy touchy". Really you guys need to get a life if you are actually getting all wound up over me calling the twotter slow and ugly.
To Chucks: As for me being "Ground School" elsewhere it is because I have only fairly recently signed up there. How that shows my experience or knowledge level I have no idea.
To C Puff: Yes I would say the van is a bush plane and a good one and yes it is both better looking and faster than the twotter. Yes I am biased toward the van and no I am not flying it at the moment {or the PC 6 for that matter}. Once again this is MY opinion.
TO Dafly: No I am not a "wind up" I just have my opinion.
So to all you who are getting your knickers in a knot about my opinion why not get off my case and get back talking about aircraft.
ct
To Chucks: As for me being "Ground School" elsewhere it is because I have only fairly recently signed up there. How that shows my experience or knowledge level I have no idea.
To C Puff: Yes I would say the van is a bush plane and a good one and yes it is both better looking and faster than the twotter. Yes I am biased toward the van and no I am not flying it at the moment {or the PC 6 for that matter}. Once again this is MY opinion.
TO Dafly: No I am not a "wind up" I just have my opinion.
So to all you who are getting your knickers in a knot about my opinion why not get off my case and get back talking about aircraft.
ct
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Dear Groundling...
You would be surprised how much real affection you can hold for the Twotter. I started out as a Flight Instructor and then the first "real" job I had was as an FO on a Twotter for a start-up regional in the States. On the back of that I had a series of jobs where I would get bucked off into a thorn patch trying to get onto jets and end up with unasked-for Twotter flying saving my bacon repeatedly.
In fact, one guy who didn't treat the Twotter with the respect it deserved ended up with it reaching around and biting him severely, when I got yet another summons to do a spell of Twottering that led to my finally getting, yes, that jet job!
Treat the Twotter with the respect it deserves and it will at least repay you with loyal service; with a bit of luck it will also help along your career.
I just did two years in the Sahara on Twotters, operating off 800-metre gypsum strips out in the middle of nowhere when that was the best machine for the job, I think.
If you really want to get noticed, as here, just diss the Twotter and the people who fly or have flown it and then stand by for "Incoming!" If you knew anything about it then you probably would hold it in the same regard pretty much everyone else here does. To denigrate it makes one come across pretty much as a "troll," yes, just like all those guys with as close to zero hours as makes no difference who say that Airbus rules and Boeing is crap or vice-versa.
Why should you want to come across as a jerk, though? Might it not be better to either find something nice to say about this well-liked aircraft or else start your own thread where you can tell us how the Caravan is the perfect aircraft for beginner bush pilots, as it does seem to be? Why pee on the campfire?
I have a few hours in the Caravan and I wouldn't mind a job flying one but it seems to be nowhere near as rugged as a Twotter, plus I am kind of old-fashioned so that I still think two donkeys are better than one! Too, the way you climb into a Twotter, just grabbing any old thing (except that goddam glare shield!), you try that on a Caravan you probably will end up with something coming off in your hand! Just my idea there...
In fact, one guy who didn't treat the Twotter with the respect it deserved ended up with it reaching around and biting him severely, when I got yet another summons to do a spell of Twottering that led to my finally getting, yes, that jet job!
Treat the Twotter with the respect it deserves and it will at least repay you with loyal service; with a bit of luck it will also help along your career.
I just did two years in the Sahara on Twotters, operating off 800-metre gypsum strips out in the middle of nowhere when that was the best machine for the job, I think.
If you really want to get noticed, as here, just diss the Twotter and the people who fly or have flown it and then stand by for "Incoming!" If you knew anything about it then you probably would hold it in the same regard pretty much everyone else here does. To denigrate it makes one come across pretty much as a "troll," yes, just like all those guys with as close to zero hours as makes no difference who say that Airbus rules and Boeing is crap or vice-versa.
Why should you want to come across as a jerk, though? Might it not be better to either find something nice to say about this well-liked aircraft or else start your own thread where you can tell us how the Caravan is the perfect aircraft for beginner bush pilots, as it does seem to be? Why pee on the campfire?
I have a few hours in the Caravan and I wouldn't mind a job flying one but it seems to be nowhere near as rugged as a Twotter, plus I am kind of old-fashioned so that I still think two donkeys are better than one! Too, the way you climb into a Twotter, just grabbing any old thing (except that goddam glare shield!), you try that on a Caravan you probably will end up with something coming off in your hand! Just my idea there...
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
...I see temps in CKPT and CABIN in the pics, did you install a heating and A/C ACM?
The rationale for them is that there can be quite a difference between flight compartment and cabin temperature, because the flight compartment can get quite a bit of sunlight (the cabin not) - so, they are there to assist the pilot to adjust heating or (optional) air conditioning to maintain a comfortable cabin temperature.
Michael
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CT
As you say, merely your opinion. Perhaps if you had time on type you'd have an informed opinion.
Here's an experiment for you - Put the 'Van on floats and see how long that firewall lasts in even a mild chop.
As you say, merely your opinion. Perhaps if you had time on type you'd have an informed opinion.
Here's an experiment for you - Put the 'Van on floats and see how long that firewall lasts in even a mild chop.
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Cave Troll
...I would say the van is a bush plane and a good one and yes it is both better looking and faster than the twotter...
It's not really possible to say that a Caravan or a Twin Otter is the best aircraft for a specific purpose unless you first assess exactly what the needs of the route to be served are. Each aircraft brings its own strengths and weaknesses along with it, and it's not a zero-sum game. For example, the Caravan is a bit faster than the Twin Otter, but the Twin Otter lifts more and requires less runway (for the same payload).
On the other hand, the Caravan is considerably less expensive. I don't know what Caravans cost, but my guess is you could probably buy two of them for the price of a Twin Otter. That would be the right thing to do if you have to travel long distances with fairly light loads (what the package courier companies do with the Caravans), but it might not be the right thing to do if you need to carry larger loads, or more people, or if you have to traverse areas that are not suitable for single engine operations.
I guess what I am trying to say here is that both of these aircraft are specialized tools. You can't say that one is better than the other; all you can do is say that one is a better choice than the other for a specific purpose. Even that is a bit of a mug's game, because for every example you can cite where aircraft 'A' is the better choice, there is a different example where aircraft 'B' would be a better choice.
Although there are a limited number of routes where the competencies of the two aircraft overlap, I really don't think that they compete with each other. Each is unique.
Michael
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The Caravan is NOT a bush plane....
During the wet months it is severely restricted where it can land in the "bush". Only in Africa would people think of the Caravan as a bush plane and you can tell by the number of their smashed carcasses dotting the landscape stripped of anything of value to be flown in some other piece of crap preparing for it's final resting place...in the bush.
The Twin Otter is the king of the Bush. However, the C-18 may be the new king considering where I have seen that monster land.
The Twin Otter is the king of the Bush. However, the C-18 may be the new king considering where I have seen that monster land.
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The caravan seems to be holding up ok in the Okavango Delta. And we get some serious flooding and messed up runways...
Horses for courses though.
Although in saying that... the company is looking at getting a twin otter if the pax numbers pick up a little more...
Fingers crossed.
Horses for courses though.
Although in saying that... the company is looking at getting a twin otter if the pax numbers pick up a little more...
Fingers crossed.
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Hope they installed something to scrape the mud off your boots with
....looking forward to meeting it!
V1..oops,I dont mean to set the cat among the pigeons but i dont think you can compare the twotter cockpit and screens to an Abrahams tank.
Tank crews and equipment enjoy collective protection of the entire tank with purified air under positive-pressure ventilation.ie no dust!
I know the old 1900D screen used to pick up a reasonable amount of snags due to some of the harsh enviroments out there and they dont compare to areas where the Otter is used.
A 3 year warranty just means they fix it when it chokes up.How they plan to do this when you stuck in Bor,South Sudan will be interesting.
Time will tell!
....looking forward to meeting it! V1..oops,I dont mean to set the cat among the pigeons but i dont think you can compare the twotter cockpit and screens to an Abrahams tank.
Tank crews and equipment enjoy collective protection of the entire tank with purified air under positive-pressure ventilation.ie no dust!
I know the old 1900D screen used to pick up a reasonable amount of snags due to some of the harsh enviroments out there and they dont compare to areas where the Otter is used.
A 3 year warranty just means they fix it when it chokes up.How they plan to do this when you stuck in Bor,South Sudan will be interesting.
Time will tell!