SA Airlink J41 crash
Originally Posted by Der absolute Hammer
It's that last little bit ["BAE SYSTEMS PLC has dispatched a team of technical experts to assist] about should they be required that might cause the skeptical a little unease. Is there any possibility that BAE would not be required to assist?
In other words - it is almost a sure thing that the UK CAA informally phoned the SA CAA and said "May we help you in any way with this?" and the SA CAA said "Yes, we would be grateful if you could sent some experts from the manufacturer".
That's how things normally go.
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Quote: “ICAO Annex 13 very thoroughly documents the protocol and etiquette associated with accident investigations.”
That applies in the first world. This happened in Africa. There are numerous crashes throughout the continent that have never been properly investigated and explained. Here are two examples:
http://www.pprune.org/african-aviati...-congo-11.html
http://www.pprune.org/african-aviati...er-2004-a.html
That applies in the first world. This happened in Africa. There are numerous crashes throughout the continent that have never been properly investigated and explained. Here are two examples:
http://www.pprune.org/african-aviati...-congo-11.html
http://www.pprune.org/african-aviati...er-2004-a.html
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Originally Posted by suitcaseman
To the guys using this accident to punt ALPA - shame on you.
1. Despite the fact that Alistair is not an ALPA member, the ALPA Exco has already contacted his family and assured them that a close eye will be kept on proceedings and that they should feel free to contact them at any stage should they require assistance.
2. ALPA has been formally invited by CAA to participate in the accident investigation. The ALPA accident analysis expert has already been dispatched and will be a full participant in proceedings. This gentleman will ensure, amongst other things, that the CVR and FDR data may only be used for investigative purposes and not for punitive conclusions against the crew.
3. A support team was assembled by ALPA shortly after the accident and dispatched to Durban to ensure that all the needs of the crew are met (including the injured flight attendant).
4. An ALPA CIRP specialist will arrive in DUR on Monday to provide trauma counselling to the family and friends of the crew involved in this tragedy.
5. As soon as their condition improves, ALPA will be assisting the crew with their written statements. This is invaluable since many pilots have in the past inadvertently shot themselves in the feet when providing written statements to the investigating authority.
So far from simply “punting ALPA”, as you have so eloquently put it suitcaseman, those who’ve mentioned ALPA are right on the mark. This is classic example why any and all pilots should be members of an organisation like ALPA and not simply any old trade union. Their support and industry influence ranges much, much further than simply negotiating salary increases. Alistair and Sonja will need a lot of support in months to come, and I can assure you they have the best possible team behind them to provide the assistance they require.
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Guys don't make this thread about the good or bad points of ALPA. It is supposed to be here to help and support our fellow aviators be they guilty of screwing up or not. It is not supposed to be about whether or not ALPA screwed people over or not. There are other forums for that.
To the crew involved all the best and a speedy recovery
ct
To the crew involved all the best and a speedy recovery
ct
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Your whole argument is based on seriously flawed facts. ALPA never screwed any members out of money - the Airlink Pilots Association Exco was flawed and made some very bad decisions. The Exco, keep in mind, were elected by Airlink pilots from their own ranks.
You are giving some very, very bad advice to young pilots reading these forums. What you fail to realize is that they need not have done anything wrong to still get the short end of the stick. Procedural errors by the investigating authority, a poorly worded statement by the pilots and a host of other potential pitfalls has the potential to get innocent crew into a heap of trouble. This is where a dedicated aviation association can, an will, save your but.
You are fairly dim if you believe for one second that any other labour union (and I am not referring to only Solidarity) has the experience, expertise and general know-how to give you the help you need in the event of a serious aircraft accident. There is simply no debate on this point. Period.
The First Officer is an ALPA member and getting her moneys’ worth. The captain is not an ALPA member, and far from forcing help down his throat, ALPA has OFFERED their assistance.
Your knight in shining amour analogy is very poetic, but fails to hide the fact that you are dim whit with an ax to grind. As mentioned previously, your advice is not only ill informed but is potentially damaging. Since it is considered poor sport to engage in a battle of wits with an opponent that is clearly unarmed, I will no longer debate this issue with you. Let’s wait and see how things unfold in the future.
Back to accident thread.
You are giving some very, very bad advice to young pilots reading these forums. What you fail to realize is that they need not have done anything wrong to still get the short end of the stick. Procedural errors by the investigating authority, a poorly worded statement by the pilots and a host of other potential pitfalls has the potential to get innocent crew into a heap of trouble. This is where a dedicated aviation association can, an will, save your but.
You are fairly dim if you believe for one second that any other labour union (and I am not referring to only Solidarity) has the experience, expertise and general know-how to give you the help you need in the event of a serious aircraft accident. There is simply no debate on this point. Period.
The First Officer is an ALPA member and getting her moneys’ worth. The captain is not an ALPA member, and far from forcing help down his throat, ALPA has OFFERED their assistance.
Your knight in shining amour analogy is very poetic, but fails to hide the fact that you are dim whit with an ax to grind. As mentioned previously, your advice is not only ill informed but is potentially damaging. Since it is considered poor sport to engage in a battle of wits with an opponent that is clearly unarmed, I will no longer debate this issue with you. Let’s wait and see how things unfold in the future.
Back to accident thread.
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I am not sure that this is the thread to hash up the ALPA debate.
I have said it before, unions are only as commited as the membership. The memebership at the time, decided to fight for self interest, not a principle. Management had already won on the divide and rule concept.
The outcome was a given failure.
Back to the thread.
The failed engine would have NTS'd and then auto-feathered had it failed to relight. The Fight would have lasted less than a minute, the crash site was less than 1.5nm from point of rotation. I dont see this as a 'wrong engine' issue. The crew's sim training would have precluded that.
I also dont see this as a straight engine out. The blade damage suggests something very strange. It can be seen clearly in the pics that #2 engine, the engine that had reported smoke, was turning under power at impact. # 1 is NOT feathered, but undamaged, as if stationary.
I dont even want to speculate what went wrong.
I have said it before, unions are only as commited as the membership. The memebership at the time, decided to fight for self interest, not a principle. Management had already won on the divide and rule concept.
The outcome was a given failure.
Back to the thread.
The failed engine would have NTS'd and then auto-feathered had it failed to relight. The Fight would have lasted less than a minute, the crash site was less than 1.5nm from point of rotation. I dont see this as a 'wrong engine' issue. The crew's sim training would have precluded that.
I also dont see this as a straight engine out. The blade damage suggests something very strange. It can be seen clearly in the pics that #2 engine, the engine that had reported smoke, was turning under power at impact. # 1 is NOT feathered, but undamaged, as if stationary.
I dont even want to speculate what went wrong.
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Given Airlink Management's reputation for intimidation, bullying, lies and deception I find it very strange that the CAA would release the wreck of the aircraft to Airlink.
Regardless of whatever union the crew are represented by, I suggest the first thing they do is engage attorney's
Regardless of whatever union the crew are represented by, I suggest the first thing they do is engage attorney's
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suitcaseman,
it is far better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove the element of doubt!
I have never and will never be a union man as far as T+c's are concerned however as many have said in the situation this crew now find themselves they need all the help and support they can get. This would not be the time to drag up old failed industrial arguments!
There are two possible senarios here, one something went wrong that made the aircraft unflyable in which case the crew done a great job saving their lives and the lives of others on the ground or, two the crew screwed up the engine out drill and the aircraft fell out of the sky.( however they still managed to ease the scale of the disaster).
If senario one is proven the crew have nothing to worry about but some support from other proffesionals on their side will still be welcome. However if senario two is proven then the crew will need a lot of help indeed and if I were in this situation I would certainly welcome support from fellow proffesionals regardless.
No pilot ever comes out of incidents like this unscathed and even if they are proved blamless( I for one certainly hope this is the case ) they will still need help to rebuild themselves and their careers if thery are to ever fly again!
This is not a time to selfishly air your own dirty laundry but a time for reflection and to thank our lucky stars that we are not the one laying in hospital beds feeling the pain and mental anguish that these fellow aviators are going through.
I wish them a speedy recovery and sincerely hope that the investigation results go their way.
it is far better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove the element of doubt!
I have never and will never be a union man as far as T+c's are concerned however as many have said in the situation this crew now find themselves they need all the help and support they can get. This would not be the time to drag up old failed industrial arguments!
There are two possible senarios here, one something went wrong that made the aircraft unflyable in which case the crew done a great job saving their lives and the lives of others on the ground or, two the crew screwed up the engine out drill and the aircraft fell out of the sky.( however they still managed to ease the scale of the disaster).
If senario one is proven the crew have nothing to worry about but some support from other proffesionals on their side will still be welcome. However if senario two is proven then the crew will need a lot of help indeed and if I were in this situation I would certainly welcome support from fellow proffesionals regardless.
No pilot ever comes out of incidents like this unscathed and even if they are proved blamless( I for one certainly hope this is the case ) they will still need help to rebuild themselves and their careers if thery are to ever fly again!
This is not a time to selfishly air your own dirty laundry but a time for reflection and to thank our lucky stars that we are not the one laying in hospital beds feeling the pain and mental anguish that these fellow aviators are going through.
I wish them a speedy recovery and sincerely hope that the investigation results go their way.
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reptile,
Be careful, the almighty and knowingly suitcase man might send one of his alter ego's on to you, he usually does when he can't win his argument.
Glad to hear ALPA is involved in the crash probe and sure is nice of them offering assistance to non ALPA members.
Let's see what the outcome will be in due time.
Be careful, the almighty and knowingly suitcase man might send one of his alter ego's on to you, he usually does when he can't win his argument.
Glad to hear ALPA is involved in the crash probe and sure is nice of them offering assistance to non ALPA members.
Let's see what the outcome will be in due time.
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suitcase & the rep are taking a well earned rest in the cooler - they'll be back in a few days.
Please try & keep this discussion/ debate level-headed without invoking personal insults.
4HP
Please try & keep this discussion/ debate level-headed without invoking personal insults.
4HP
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4holerpoler
U send them peolpe to the cooler, but yourself posting a pic of the islander. Don't you think your a tattle tail for doing so?...look people look, and see what else this pilot has done wrong!!!!!!!
The guy is in hospital, give a chap a chance man!
TT? - Nope - he pranged the Islander through his inept handling of a single-engine approach and but for the grace of God no-one died. I am entitled to my opinions as you are to yours. After the mechanical failure on the J41 something went seriously wrong for them to prang - I'll wait for the enquiry and am not suggesting anything.
If you choose to continue baiting me do it by PM please. 4HP
The guy is in hospital, give a chap a chance man!
TT? - Nope - he pranged the Islander through his inept handling of a single-engine approach and but for the grace of God no-one died. I am entitled to my opinions as you are to yours. After the mechanical failure on the J41 something went seriously wrong for them to prang - I'll wait for the enquiry and am not suggesting anything.
If you choose to continue baiting me do it by PM please. 4HP
Originally Posted by Carrier
[referring to ICAO Annex 13 protocols]...That applies in the first world. This happened in Africa.
I hear what you are saying, but, don't confuse 'process' with 'outcomes'. The processes in the ICAO annexes are generally followed by everyone, regardless of the capabilities or level of development of the regulatory agencies in various countries. The results (outcomes) of any accident investigation will depend on the capabilities of the country that is the lead agency.
Further, if the lead agency submits findings that any one of the accredited representatives disagree with, each accredited representative has the right to file a dissent. For example, if the lead agency is Country A, and they publish a finding that says "the aircraft fell out of the sky because the Gods were angry", and the accredited representative from the country of manufacture (or country of registration, or a state that had a citizen on that flight as a passenger) disagrees, they can file a dissent saying "We believe the aircraft fell out of the sky because it was covered with ice", or "because it ran out of fuel", or "because the engine failed", as the case may be.
If you would like to see an excellent example of this dissention process in actual practice, look up the report of the investigation into the Concorde take-off accident in France about 10 years ago.
Having said all that, the process can break down entirely if the lead agency does not file a report at all. This is what appears to have happened (to date) in the case of the South African B-1900 that crashed in the DRC - one of the examples you cited.
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Firstly and most importantly wishes to the crew for a speedy recovery.
Whatever the reason for the engine problems they didn't have much time to do much about it and in my opinion did a great job averting disaster.
Having been an ex ALPA member and involved in the CIRP programme now assisting all involved in this accident, I can only mention how important it is that all available assistance is given to these crews and their families. It is totally irrelevant which union they belong to - it's not about the unions, it's about assisting fellow aviators in distress. It is vital that they are protected not only from the media, who we all know love to sensationalize things and will happily quote out of context, but also any other interested parties who may wish to apportion blame away from themselves. The accident investigation will determine what actually happened, not fellow aviators, media, armchair critics, airline management etc.
Cirp will provide our colleagues with the legal guidelines they need as well as counselling for them and their families which is absolutely vital for all concerned. A little statistic - in the US more than 80% of pilots involved in accident/serious incidents who did NOT get counselling ended up losing their jobs. Post traumatic stress is serious! Just remember one thing - next time it could be you involved. Believe me you will then be grateful for all the support you can get.
I have personally been involved with 2 incidents where pilots and their families have received CIRP support and have seen first hand the benefit of it.
Good luck to the crew. My best wishes to you all and to everyone assisting them, ALPA, fellow colleagues and friends - thank you for standing by your colleagues in a time of need. It's what makes this profession worthwhile.
Rgds
Jumbo
Whatever the reason for the engine problems they didn't have much time to do much about it and in my opinion did a great job averting disaster.
Having been an ex ALPA member and involved in the CIRP programme now assisting all involved in this accident, I can only mention how important it is that all available assistance is given to these crews and their families. It is totally irrelevant which union they belong to - it's not about the unions, it's about assisting fellow aviators in distress. It is vital that they are protected not only from the media, who we all know love to sensationalize things and will happily quote out of context, but also any other interested parties who may wish to apportion blame away from themselves. The accident investigation will determine what actually happened, not fellow aviators, media, armchair critics, airline management etc.
Cirp will provide our colleagues with the legal guidelines they need as well as counselling for them and their families which is absolutely vital for all concerned. A little statistic - in the US more than 80% of pilots involved in accident/serious incidents who did NOT get counselling ended up losing their jobs. Post traumatic stress is serious! Just remember one thing - next time it could be you involved. Believe me you will then be grateful for all the support you can get.
I have personally been involved with 2 incidents where pilots and their families have received CIRP support and have seen first hand the benefit of it.
Good luck to the crew. My best wishes to you all and to everyone assisting them, ALPA, fellow colleagues and friends - thank you for standing by your colleagues in a time of need. It's what makes this profession worthwhile.
Rgds
Jumbo
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Firstly my best wishes to all the injured parties.
We were parked in DUR at A1 while the accident was playing off behind us.
It was a extremely powerless feeling that rolled over my crew and myself to witness this tragedy. We reported to ATC the the A/C appeared "fairly intact" as we climbed out. As crew we had to focus on the task at hand, but our minds were with the crew of Link 911, with 2 t/o's and landings ahead for the day. We were unaware at the time of the outcome. We were reminded how quickly things can go wrong.
As we all are aware it had been raining in DUR before 8 that morning. We landed just after the rain. Earlier in the forum the “situation that could make the JS41 impassible to fly” is contemplated.
My question to the forum is: How would contamination of the fuel (say water) affect the JS41.
I do not wish to speculate about the quality of the fuel – please. This is merely a question because of the earlier rain.
We were parked in DUR at A1 while the accident was playing off behind us.
It was a extremely powerless feeling that rolled over my crew and myself to witness this tragedy. We reported to ATC the the A/C appeared "fairly intact" as we climbed out. As crew we had to focus on the task at hand, but our minds were with the crew of Link 911, with 2 t/o's and landings ahead for the day. We were unaware at the time of the outcome. We were reminded how quickly things can go wrong.
As we all are aware it had been raining in DUR before 8 that morning. We landed just after the rain. Earlier in the forum the “situation that could make the JS41 impassible to fly” is contemplated.
My question to the forum is: How would contamination of the fuel (say water) affect the JS41.
I do not wish to speculate about the quality of the fuel – please. This is merely a question because of the earlier rain.
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From the CAA website -
MEDIA STATEMENT
Durban, Thursday 24 September 2009.
An SA Airlink Jetstream 41 Turboprop aircraft, carrying 3 passengers, experienced engine
problems after take off from Durban International Airport this morning. The aircraft was
unable to maintain altitude and the crew attempted to land on a sports field of a local
school at a suburb just 3km north east of the airport. The aircraft had diverted from
Pietermaritzburg on Wednesday evening due to bad weather.
The flight being undertaken was a positioning flight back to Pietermaritzburg with no
paying passengers onboard. The aircraft impacted a concrete fence which caused
damage to the cockpit, severely injuring the two pilots. The flight attendant on board was
also taken to hospital with suspected back or neck injuries. A municipal worker on the
ground was also injured by the aircraft and was taken to hospital. Fortunately, no fire
erupted as a result of the crash, even though the aircraft has been extensively damaged.
Rescue and firefighting teams were on the scene within minutes, but it took two and a half
hours to extract the last crewmember from the cockpit, without causing further injuries.
Senior representatives from the Civil Aviation Authority and the Department of Transport
who happened to be in Durban, were on the scene within 30 minutes and an accident
investigation team was also dispatched from Johannesburg.
The SA Police Services responsible for securing the wreckage quickly cordoned off the
area, to ensure that evidence critical to the accident investigation would not be tempered
with by those at the scene.
A preliminary accident report will be released in due course by the Chief Investigator.
- ends -
SA Civil Aviation Authority
Private Bag X73
Halfway House
1685
Tel: (011) 545 1000
Fax: (011) 545 1201
Website: CAA Website
MEDIA STATEMENT
Durban, Thursday 24 September 2009.
An SA Airlink Jetstream 41 Turboprop aircraft, carrying 3 passengers, experienced engine
problems after take off from Durban International Airport this morning. The aircraft was
unable to maintain altitude and the crew attempted to land on a sports field of a local
school at a suburb just 3km north east of the airport. The aircraft had diverted from
Pietermaritzburg on Wednesday evening due to bad weather.
The flight being undertaken was a positioning flight back to Pietermaritzburg with no
paying passengers onboard. The aircraft impacted a concrete fence which caused
damage to the cockpit, severely injuring the two pilots. The flight attendant on board was
also taken to hospital with suspected back or neck injuries. A municipal worker on the
ground was also injured by the aircraft and was taken to hospital. Fortunately, no fire
erupted as a result of the crash, even though the aircraft has been extensively damaged.
Rescue and firefighting teams were on the scene within minutes, but it took two and a half
hours to extract the last crewmember from the cockpit, without causing further injuries.
Senior representatives from the Civil Aviation Authority and the Department of Transport
who happened to be in Durban, were on the scene within 30 minutes and an accident
investigation team was also dispatched from Johannesburg.
The SA Police Services responsible for securing the wreckage quickly cordoned off the
area, to ensure that evidence critical to the accident investigation would not be tempered
with by those at the scene.
A preliminary accident report will be released in due course by the Chief Investigator.
- ends -
SA Civil Aviation Authority
Private Bag X73
Halfway House
1685
Tel: (011) 545 1000
Fax: (011) 545 1201
Website: CAA Website
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Does anyone know if they retracted the gear at all and if it was lowered before impact, or was the not retracted at all?
The airborne time was extremely short and single engine flight with gear down would be extremely difficult.
The airborne time was extremely short and single engine flight with gear down would be extremely difficult.
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Ex-J41 driver
Sad to hear that a J41, which has given Link (and others) such good service, has crashed. Kudos to the crew for managing to put the aircraft down in a reletively open area. Kudos to the J41 for not bursting into flames as this would more than likely have resulted in a tragic outcome. My hope for a speedy recovery to all injured.