Lagos, Kano, and Abuja ATC
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: N0635.1 E00319.9
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lagos, Kano, and Abuja ATC
Ladies, Gents, and anyone else who's on the frequencies:
118.1, 124.7, 127.3, 124.1, 127.9, 118.6
Can we just take an extra second to LISTEN before we start transmitting?
A few months ago I thought it was bad, but with the number of jets increasing all the time and more flights going, why are we not just using the basics and common courtesy that we all learnt during flight training??
Its so bad recently, Qatari, Air France, even Emirates just jump in and transmit, interrupting whoever is on frequency... Where do they get their bad habits from??? From listening to us....
For example, if 124.7 is jammed with approaches, there is no need to "break break - checking LAG at 59, IBA will be at 08... etc etc" or there is no need to keep requesting descent if you can hear 6 other aircraft below you - just wait your turn and leave the "controllers" to do their job...
This is just poor airmanship... come on guys...
(ok, rant over - 73H)
118.1, 124.7, 127.3, 124.1, 127.9, 118.6
Can we just take an extra second to LISTEN before we start transmitting?
A few months ago I thought it was bad, but with the number of jets increasing all the time and more flights going, why are we not just using the basics and common courtesy that we all learnt during flight training??
Its so bad recently, Qatari, Air France, even Emirates just jump in and transmit, interrupting whoever is on frequency... Where do they get their bad habits from??? From listening to us....
For example, if 124.7 is jammed with approaches, there is no need to "break break - checking LAG at 59, IBA will be at 08... etc etc" or there is no need to keep requesting descent if you can hear 6 other aircraft below you - just wait your turn and leave the "controllers" to do their job...
This is just poor airmanship... come on guys...
(ok, rant over - 73H)
Join Date: May 2006
Location: all over
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I could"nt agree more with you 737Hustler,I was in Lagos on Mon evening......what a mess,everyone talking at the same time........and then everything has to be re-peated..... AGAIN !!! Very dangerous and ofcourse frustrating !
Like you said,people naging the overloaded controller for descent whilst in the hold over LAG when they can see theres someone sitting right below them at a 1000".I am not saying the controlling is great(thats another story) but hell surely the aircrew as you say can assist by staying profesional. Just my experience aswell............
Like you said,people naging the overloaded controller for descent whilst in the hold over LAG when they can see theres someone sitting right below them at a 1000".I am not saying the controlling is great(thats another story) but hell surely the aircrew as you say can assist by staying profesional. Just my experience aswell............
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: DNMM
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
B737HUSTLER may your hustling for safer skies never cease,and may the skies you fly yield perfect wx always!
This indiscipline especially "break break" really p)(%$&%$#@* s me off!
Why does everyone one fly with ants in thier pants considering ATC limitations.
The one that gets to me is requesting further descent when in the hold with all levels filled up ie 22/35/50/60,and Mr 50 says "break break requesting further" ???????
Air traffic Collision(eh sorry meant air traffic control) is not helping matters by lumping all arrivals on one frequency.
This indiscipline especially "break break" really p)(%$&%$#@* s me off!
Why does everyone one fly with ants in thier pants considering ATC limitations.
The one that gets to me is requesting further descent when in the hold with all levels filled up ie 22/35/50/60,and Mr 50 says "break break requesting further" ???????
Air traffic Collision(eh sorry meant air traffic control) is not helping matters by lumping all arrivals on one frequency.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: EU
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Most dangerous time in Lagos, is right as night is falling and all the cowboys try to get into runway 18L before it closes due to no lights being installed. Last time I was there in a B777 had two resolution advisories in the hold over LAG, as these bohunks were screaming in. This airport is a menace. No taxiway lighting to speak of. A damn national shame is what it is! But TIA, I guess.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lost track
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi guys,
These are all very good and perfectly reasonable suggestions you are all making, and I´m sure most pilots can remember the RT basics
BUT...
First of all...Lagos uses a relay in the southern sector, and this has had an open/stuck mike for months now...try and explain this to atc...
As a result you have a garbbled mess almost instantly on frequency when arriving from the south for at least 80 miles...VERY annoying, AND you dont know when one transsmission starts, and the next ends....very likely that this adds to the clutter !!!
Next...if you were to leave it to atc without probing them, I am sure you and your shiny jet would run out of gas in the hold somewhere...
Its ok to wait in the hold if you have stacks of fuel onboard, but when your limited, this is no joke.
Also, I think you would be last-in if you waited your turn.
I think a lot of people call several times, as they dont get a reply the first 3 or 4 times. I have had a few occasions where it was reasonably calm, and there were no double transmissions, but the controller still did not respond !!!!!
A few more frequencies would be great, as would radar cover that works all the time and EVERYONE being professional....those things all happening at the same time in Lagos...no chance.
These are all very good and perfectly reasonable suggestions you are all making, and I´m sure most pilots can remember the RT basics
BUT...
First of all...Lagos uses a relay in the southern sector, and this has had an open/stuck mike for months now...try and explain this to atc...
As a result you have a garbbled mess almost instantly on frequency when arriving from the south for at least 80 miles...VERY annoying, AND you dont know when one transsmission starts, and the next ends....very likely that this adds to the clutter !!!
Next...if you were to leave it to atc without probing them, I am sure you and your shiny jet would run out of gas in the hold somewhere...
Its ok to wait in the hold if you have stacks of fuel onboard, but when your limited, this is no joke.
Also, I think you would be last-in if you waited your turn.
I think a lot of people call several times, as they dont get a reply the first 3 or 4 times. I have had a few occasions where it was reasonably calm, and there were no double transmissions, but the controller still did not respond !!!!!
A few more frequencies would be great, as would radar cover that works all the time and EVERYONE being professional....those things all happening at the same time in Lagos...no chance.
I suggest all during such peak periods, pilots should consider delaying giving their full traffic information as this adds to the mess. that is if ATC is no requesting for it, cos Atc in these parts like the "POB, REG and Endurance "info. for all I care they could be the ones creating the mess. Stay safe people.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: California
Age: 62
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here are some of the things that come to mind that can be changed relatively cheaply and quickly.
1. Let ground control issue ground instructions, and issue clearances. This costs nothing, and does a lot to minimize the frequency congestion on tower. Also, this meets the international standard. Optional, add clearance delivery frequency.
2. Departures off of 18L and 18R at the same time. Yes, it can and is done in the rest of the world without radar. The procedures are many decades old, but why they're not used here, I have no idea.
3. Establish interfacility coordination of estimates and flight plan data. This is so basic to ATC, that it truly is amazing that it's not done in Nigeria, and we have pilots giving this info over and over via the overloaded airways.
4. Split the approach frequency into two, perhaps along a line of runway 18R and 18L. Yes, a transmitter would have to be purchased, but I'll bet that the airlines themselves could be persuaded to finance this directly, and quickly.
5. Use the radar. Note I left this close to last. For a group that has never used radar, just turning it on won't make things smoother. Like piloting, using radar is an learned and acquired skill, practiced over time to proficiency.
6. With radar, use parallel simultaneous approaches. This is probably the single most costly of my ideas, because it takes some specific radio hardware, and a dedicated controller to monitoring the approaches. Some aircrew training issues, also.
7. Train the controllers to use 36L/R when wind conditions dictate.
I intend to meet up with the controllers at LOS this month so that we can mutually understand the issues that we face. My background is two decades of ATC in California with FAA, working enroute center (Oakland), approach (SoCal), and tower.
If you have some specific suggestions, I'm all ears.
1. Let ground control issue ground instructions, and issue clearances. This costs nothing, and does a lot to minimize the frequency congestion on tower. Also, this meets the international standard. Optional, add clearance delivery frequency.
2. Departures off of 18L and 18R at the same time. Yes, it can and is done in the rest of the world without radar. The procedures are many decades old, but why they're not used here, I have no idea.
3. Establish interfacility coordination of estimates and flight plan data. This is so basic to ATC, that it truly is amazing that it's not done in Nigeria, and we have pilots giving this info over and over via the overloaded airways.
4. Split the approach frequency into two, perhaps along a line of runway 18R and 18L. Yes, a transmitter would have to be purchased, but I'll bet that the airlines themselves could be persuaded to finance this directly, and quickly.
5. Use the radar. Note I left this close to last. For a group that has never used radar, just turning it on won't make things smoother. Like piloting, using radar is an learned and acquired skill, practiced over time to proficiency.
6. With radar, use parallel simultaneous approaches. This is probably the single most costly of my ideas, because it takes some specific radio hardware, and a dedicated controller to monitoring the approaches. Some aircrew training issues, also.
7. Train the controllers to use 36L/R when wind conditions dictate.
I intend to meet up with the controllers at LOS this month so that we can mutually understand the issues that we face. My background is two decades of ATC in California with FAA, working enroute center (Oakland), approach (SoCal), and tower.
If you have some specific suggestions, I'm all ears.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: N0635.1 E00319.9
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Suggestions...
My own 2 naira on what else is clogging the frequencies & what we could suggest pilots do:
1. Anticipate what information ATC will need before you request climb/descent which will be your distance LAG and ACTUAL passing level.
2. Asking for your rate of climb to restrict the next following aircraft on a departure, or with control, even though the aircraft preceding is the same type and left 5 minutes ahead of you (35 miles ahead by my calculation) - the ATC dont use the information they request which is aircraft type - why?
3. Use radials for climb or descent through levels - tell aircraft A turn 5 degrees left, and aircraft B turn 5 degrees left, and then presto, room to climb or descend...
4. Why not then clear aircraft going to the same destination to the same level - meaning we won't be affecting anyone elses descent... 7-8 mins separation of 50 miles is plenty, and is about average by time the clearance of "runway heading to 35, 50, or 60 then turn right LAG" is followed...
5. When you say you're 76 miles LAG and they say call at 70 miles - completely pointless when thats less than 1 minute on a jet... clogging the frequency again.
Where and when does one meet with LAG ATC??
1. Anticipate what information ATC will need before you request climb/descent which will be your distance LAG and ACTUAL passing level.
2. Asking for your rate of climb to restrict the next following aircraft on a departure, or with control, even though the aircraft preceding is the same type and left 5 minutes ahead of you (35 miles ahead by my calculation) - the ATC dont use the information they request which is aircraft type - why?
3. Use radials for climb or descent through levels - tell aircraft A turn 5 degrees left, and aircraft B turn 5 degrees left, and then presto, room to climb or descend...
4. Why not then clear aircraft going to the same destination to the same level - meaning we won't be affecting anyone elses descent... 7-8 mins separation of 50 miles is plenty, and is about average by time the clearance of "runway heading to 35, 50, or 60 then turn right LAG" is followed...
5. When you say you're 76 miles LAG and they say call at 70 miles -
completely pointless when thats less than 1 minute on a jet... clogging the frequency again. Where and when does one meet with LAG ATC??
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: California
Age: 62
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2. Asking for your rate of climb to restrict the next following aircraft on a departure, or with control, even though the aircraft preceding is the same type and left 5 minutes ahead of you (35 miles ahead by my calculation) - the ATC dont use the information they request which is aircraft type - why?
You would have to know what separation rule(s) they are using, and when. Typically, non-radar is TEN minutes, or altitude. DME certainly helps the ten minute issue, but POSITIVE control certainly must be maintained.
3. Use radials for climb or descent through levels - tell aircraft A turn 5 degrees left, and aircraft B turn 5 degrees left, and then presto, room to climb or descend...
Please explain how you intend to use random headings to provide separation (within the rules) to non-radar ATC. I wouldn't use 5 left / 5 right in a radar environment, when I know where everybody is. Navaids, fixes, radials, airways, etc, are all identifiable in non-radar. A random heading is not.
4. Why not then clear aircraft going to the same destination to the same level - meaning we won't be affecting anyone elses descent... 7-8 mins separation of 50 miles is plenty, and is about average by time the clearance of "runway heading to 35, 50, or 60 then turn right LAG" is followed...
Assigning both aircraft the same flight level without having some type of absolute separation is bad form. ATC might get away with it 9999 times out of 10000. Basically, the thought is to use vertical separation until lateral separation can be established.
I certainly don't suggest "cowboy" separation of what seems about right. There's plenty of cowboy already going on already. There are ways to depart aircraft non-radar, and use 1 minute separation on the subsequent aircraft. That's the direction I'd like to go.
5. When you say you're 76 miles LAG and they say call at 70 miles - completely pointless when thats less than 1 minute on a jet... clogging the frequency again.
Heck, we had the same problems in the US with radar. For example, ATC typically needs 1000 feet separation vertically, so in order to assign FL240 to the higher of two descending aircraft, the controller may ask, "say altitude?" So the pilot says FL234, but the controller really needed a FL230 report. Accomplishes nothing, and the controller will just ask again.
So, my method was to ask pilots to "confirm leaving FL230" to let them know what I need and get the proper report. Sure, plenty of times pilots would still give me FL234, but the overwhelming majority could figure it out, and just delay there report a few seconds until passing FL230. Just to be clear, pilot altitude reports override Mode C (which will lag behind actual altitude in climbs and descents, since ATC radar only interrogates the transponder every 6 to 12 seconds).
So, if the controller needs 70 miles, and you're at 76, and moving at 8 miles per minute, give them 70, please. But, unfortunately, you may not know they need 70, unless the controller uses one transmission to "report 70 miles".
Where and when does one meet with LAG ATC??
For you, or are you asking when I will ? I don't have a specific date yet, and I'm in the US at the moment.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: N0635.1 E00319.9
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I stand corrected...
My point 3:
Assuming an aircraft is on an airway like UR778 to IBA-BDA...
aircraft B following them calls for a higher level - you can give 5 degrees separation until aircraft B crosses the aircrafts level and then request they turn back on course....
But based on what you're saying, we just need the radars turned on and some more training....
I'll start delaying my calls to the actual level/ distance ATC require...
And what I'm asking about ATC is both - when and where does one meet with them? I'd like to join you when you do...
73H
Assuming an aircraft is on an airway like UR778 to IBA-BDA...
aircraft B following them calls for a higher level - you can give 5 degrees separation until aircraft B crosses the aircrafts level and then request they turn back on course....
But based on what you're saying, we just need the radars turned on and some more training....
I'll start delaying my calls to the actual level/ distance ATC require...
And what I'm asking about ATC is both - when and where does one meet with them? I'd like to join you when you do...
73H
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: California
Age: 62
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My point 3:
Assuming an aircraft is on an airway like UR778 to IBA-BDA...
aircraft B following them calls for a higher level - you can give 5 degrees separation until aircraft B crosses the aircrafts level and then request they turn back on course....
Assuming an aircraft is on an airway like UR778 to IBA-BDA...
aircraft B following them calls for a higher level - you can give 5 degrees separation until aircraft B crosses the aircrafts level and then request they turn back on course....
Sorry, but it just doesn't work that way... UR778 is 8 nm wide within 51 nm of the navaid, and gets wider past that point. Which side of the airway are the aircraft when you give a heading that you have no method to monitor non-radar?
But based on what you're saying, we just need the radars turned on and some more training....
No, I'm actually saying the opposite. Radar won't cause some miracle of increase ATC performance. I'd actually expect a slow down as they get to speed with radar, and that means all the ATC folks. To give you an example of what I'm talking about, a typical radar checkout at a US ATC facility takes typically 1 to 4 years, depending on the facility and complexity. And that's with experienced ATC radar instructors. Where are you going to find those in Nigeria?
And what I'm asking about ATC is both - when and where does one meet with them? I'd like to join you when you do...
I'll offer details when I have them.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Zurich Switzerland-not
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Based in Lagos flying the "said routes". Everything being said is correct. The suggested solutions are excellent "ideas".
Pesonnally, I try and wait when another aircraft is in the middle of a transmission with ATC. Cutting a guy off who is either asking a question or is getting a badly needed update on his/her clearance is not only rude, its self serving and confuses the ATC folks. Lets think about each other and act accordingly on the RT. Its like panic mode. Can't think of anything that critical that justifies chopping off someone else's RT time. Well maybe fuel short. Seems like everyone is racing "to be first". Kind of unprofessional at times.
Footnote: ATC, considering the equipment and limitations, does a pretty good job. Mistakes are made, but overall its 1950 environment and the ATC staff deals with it, usually with a single controler. Controlers in the US and EU would go balistic in the RT environment. Never hear any Nigerian ATC personnel screaming at someone who is "cutting in", they just deal with it. Now I know why god invented TCAS/ACAS. TIA.
Pesonnally, I try and wait when another aircraft is in the middle of a transmission with ATC. Cutting a guy off who is either asking a question or is getting a badly needed update on his/her clearance is not only rude, its self serving and confuses the ATC folks. Lets think about each other and act accordingly on the RT. Its like panic mode. Can't think of anything that critical that justifies chopping off someone else's RT time. Well maybe fuel short. Seems like everyone is racing "to be first". Kind of unprofessional at times.
Footnote: ATC, considering the equipment and limitations, does a pretty good job. Mistakes are made, but overall its 1950 environment and the ATC staff deals with it, usually with a single controler. Controlers in the US and EU would go balistic in the RT environment. Never hear any Nigerian ATC personnel screaming at someone who is "cutting in", they just deal with it. Now I know why god invented TCAS/ACAS. TIA.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: africa
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I really hate it when pilots cut in into each others' transmission.....doesnt happen on my frequency too often but when it does....i make sure i tell them "keep a listening watch"...jus to let them know I am not amused....works for me
By the way, any Nigerian ATC in this forum?? would really like to hear their end of the story....esp concerning Radar.....if its there, why isnt it being used???
By the way, any Nigerian ATC in this forum?? would really like to hear their end of the story....esp concerning Radar.....if its there, why isnt it being used???
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA
Age: 53
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great Showing fellas,
this is the most constructive conversation i have read on here in a lonnnnnnnng while Please keep this up. this i believe is the basic reason behind setting up this site.
Any ATC controllers on here? Please feel free to chime in on this HOT! topic.
Cheers all.
this is the most constructive conversation i have read on here in a lonnnnnnnng while
Please keep this up. this i believe is the basic reason behind setting up this site.Any ATC controllers on here? Please feel free to chime in on this HOT! topic.
Cheers all.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Over the Rainbow
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am pleased to see that I am not the only one who is constantly amazed at the shambles that passes for 'ATC' in Lagos. I dread operating into this hell hole because of this.
My pet peeve is the passing of flight plan details about POB, registration etc., while the rest of us are trying to get descent clearance (or any sort of clearance for that matter). The state of the airport and its facilities is another hate.
Sadly, I doubt that anything will change unless the major operators put pressure by refusing to fly into LAG.
My pet peeve is the passing of flight plan details about POB, registration etc., while the rest of us are trying to get descent clearance (or any sort of clearance for that matter). The state of the airport and its facilities is another hate.
Sadly, I doubt that anything will change unless the major operators put pressure by refusing to fly into LAG.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: europe
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
don't drop the ball!
Its not just africa it seems that faces a challenging ATC environment. This is ground control in JFK trying to keep it all moving smoothly.
http://www.rbplumbing.com/JFKGround.mp3
.http://www.rbplumbing.com/JFKGround.mp3
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Myrtle Beach SC
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IRS Airlines
Fellas, just a quick intrusion - company out of UK has a judgment against IRS for unpaid accounts and has been issued authority to seize any of their aircraft entering EU airspace and hold for payment. Word on the street in UK is that they are cashed out - most of the flight crews are flying on IOU's. They are paying cash for fuel and they have had one AC, the EMB145, repo'd and are trying to rent AC all over Europe but it is on the street now about the court order.
Use Caution dealing with these guys.
Use Caution dealing with these guys.