B1900 missing in the congo?
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My two cents' worth...
First, yes, I am currently working for that Swiss company, in North Africa where I am a Twin Otter pilot.
I am at the point (age 60-plus) where there's no real pressure to prove anything much. They give me a trip and I fly it to the best of my ability but yes there have been days when I just couldn't get the job done. Lack of local experience, reluctance to take risks, lack of ability even, given that I am probably not the world's greatest Twin Otter pilot. (Until I took this job I had flown a Twin Otter exactly twice from an unpaved strip! I had always operated from paved runways, odd as that might seem, with most of my "bush strip" flying having been done in 400-series Cessnas.)
I have to live with knowing that there are guys who could probably get a trip done that I cannot. Luckily, my employer is very good about this and seem to be happy with my level of ability. Too, nowadays they are under a reasonable amount of supervision from the Swiss authorities, FOCA. It is not the case that they are just turned loose to operate in a cowboy way in the Third World.
I agree with V1 that cowboy operators are a big part of the problem, carrying First World registrations and operating to Third World standards. Part of the problem there, though, is the individual pilot who chooses to ignore, bend or break the rules.
When it comes to that I think I only need to mention that I used to work in Nigeria. I would have lasted about one tour if I had chosen to do everything by the book but I worked there off and on from 1981 until 2005.
The most unhelpful thing is to just point a finger in another direction. I was told by another pilot (falsely) that TCAS makes no sense because of all those airplanes without transponders, plus why should he switch his on given that I had TCAS and he didn't? I had to guess that man did not put in a lot of time studying ICAO SARPs, plus being dumb as a bag of hammers. No need to raise HIS game with all those other losers flying around, eh?
All this about the hard-drinking Ivans... I knew a few Russians in Nigeria and they seemed okay to me. Way underpaid, something like $500/month I was told, and the equipment looked as if it had been made in a locomotive works but they were out there getting the job done and if they were drinking in the line shack at least they never offered me any! I helped one guy write a CV because he wanted to try to get a better job, when I found out he was really quite accomplished in Russian terms. Come to that, the French often take a glass of wine with their lunch and then go commit aviation; it isn't just the Rooskies drinking the brake fluid.
Another thing is this finger-pointing that soothes us. Joe Bloggs dinged in but that is because poor old Joe was obviously a screw-up, not like US! I remember one of the biggest finger-pointers I knew, a legend in his own mind, who ended up doing a CFIT to the grim amusement of many who knew him.
I guess on the one hand we need to wait for the report. On the other hand we need to listen to the bush telegraph and review our own individual ways of getting the job done.
I once had to tell a nervous co-pilot that there was no such thing as a safe airplane. Even parked with the chocks in, the damned thing could have a gear collapse and squash you like a bug. What there is, is an acceptable level of risk and that is what we are paid to find.
I am at the point (age 60-plus) where there's no real pressure to prove anything much. They give me a trip and I fly it to the best of my ability but yes there have been days when I just couldn't get the job done. Lack of local experience, reluctance to take risks, lack of ability even, given that I am probably not the world's greatest Twin Otter pilot. (Until I took this job I had flown a Twin Otter exactly twice from an unpaved strip! I had always operated from paved runways, odd as that might seem, with most of my "bush strip" flying having been done in 400-series Cessnas.)
I have to live with knowing that there are guys who could probably get a trip done that I cannot. Luckily, my employer is very good about this and seem to be happy with my level of ability. Too, nowadays they are under a reasonable amount of supervision from the Swiss authorities, FOCA. It is not the case that they are just turned loose to operate in a cowboy way in the Third World.
I agree with V1 that cowboy operators are a big part of the problem, carrying First World registrations and operating to Third World standards. Part of the problem there, though, is the individual pilot who chooses to ignore, bend or break the rules.
When it comes to that I think I only need to mention that I used to work in Nigeria. I would have lasted about one tour if I had chosen to do everything by the book but I worked there off and on from 1981 until 2005.
The most unhelpful thing is to just point a finger in another direction. I was told by another pilot (falsely) that TCAS makes no sense because of all those airplanes without transponders, plus why should he switch his on given that I had TCAS and he didn't? I had to guess that man did not put in a lot of time studying ICAO SARPs, plus being dumb as a bag of hammers. No need to raise HIS game with all those other losers flying around, eh?
All this about the hard-drinking Ivans... I knew a few Russians in Nigeria and they seemed okay to me. Way underpaid, something like $500/month I was told, and the equipment looked as if it had been made in a locomotive works but they were out there getting the job done and if they were drinking in the line shack at least they never offered me any! I helped one guy write a CV because he wanted to try to get a better job, when I found out he was really quite accomplished in Russian terms. Come to that, the French often take a glass of wine with their lunch and then go commit aviation; it isn't just the Rooskies drinking the brake fluid.
Another thing is this finger-pointing that soothes us. Joe Bloggs dinged in but that is because poor old Joe was obviously a screw-up, not like US! I remember one of the biggest finger-pointers I knew, a legend in his own mind, who ended up doing a CFIT to the grim amusement of many who knew him.
I guess on the one hand we need to wait for the report. On the other hand we need to listen to the bush telegraph and review our own individual ways of getting the job done.
I once had to tell a nervous co-pilot that there was no such thing as a safe airplane. Even parked with the chocks in, the damned thing could have a gear collapse and squash you like a bug. What there is, is an acceptable level of risk and that is what we are paid to find.
Last edited by chuks; 8th Sep 2008 at 15:38.
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Hi All,
I believe that V1...Oops has a valid point to make. Read his postings carefully, and try to remain objective.
REGULATORY OVERSIGHT
Human nature is such, that we require policing. That's just the way it is! By the way The SA-CAA guys are reading this thread.
Cheers,
Pitch&Fan
I believe that V1...Oops has a valid point to make. Read his postings carefully, and try to remain objective.
REGULATORY OVERSIGHT
Human nature is such, that we require policing. That's just the way it is! By the way The SA-CAA guys are reading this thread.
Cheers,
Pitch&Fan
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DRC Beech 1900 Missing
South coast is regrettably correct. I have seen the Russian helo crews drink right up to handover. they stopped drinking when they went on standby duty. This was both in the DRC and in Sudan. It is the norm rather than the exception. Small drink Captain for your health, don't worry is no problem.
Just the way it is in Africa.
Just the way it is in Africa.
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Airman 56 said,
'An EasyJet pilot is facing the sack for being more than five times the legal alcohol limit when she arrived to take charge of a flight packed with 120 passengers at Berlin's Schönefeld airport.
The captain, who was one of the low-cost airline's few female pilots, aroused the suspicion of colleagues when she turned up for flight EZY3455 to the Swiss city of Basle at 6.45am on Saturday.'
Dont get me wrong, I am not saying this is unique to DCR nor to Ukranian crews, of course it happens all over the world, but as your example points out, when crews in Europe or the USA turn up to work drunk, they are found out and stopped, however, the point I believe V1 to be making is backed up by this example, there is absouletly no regulatory body in place to stop this kind of thing happening in the field, read DRC.
Also, the point was about the unacceptably high numbers of crashes and loss of life within the DRC and not Europe.
'An EasyJet pilot is facing the sack for being more than five times the legal alcohol limit when she arrived to take charge of a flight packed with 120 passengers at Berlin's Schönefeld airport.
The captain, who was one of the low-cost airline's few female pilots, aroused the suspicion of colleagues when she turned up for flight EZY3455 to the Swiss city of Basle at 6.45am on Saturday.'
Dont get me wrong, I am not saying this is unique to DCR nor to Ukranian crews, of course it happens all over the world, but as your example points out, when crews in Europe or the USA turn up to work drunk, they are found out and stopped, however, the point I believe V1 to be making is backed up by this example, there is absouletly no regulatory body in place to stop this kind of thing happening in the field, read DRC.
Also, the point was about the unacceptably high numbers of crashes and loss of life within the DRC and not Europe.
Last edited by south coast; 8th Sep 2008 at 08:36.
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Once again I find myself having to agree with Southcoast. There is a well-known South African operator of DC9's who is claiming he makes USD50,000 per day, per aircraft, PROFIT in the DRC and how he would rather operate there BECAUSE of their lack of oversight. I personally have witnessed (in the early 2000's) the crew of an AN12 doing an engine change in Windhoek as well as a re-spray and registration change before bringing the a/c back to SA. On my first trip to Luanda with Safair in the early '90's, I went up to an AN12 (first time I had seen one "in the flesh") Spoke to the crew who offered me alcohol. On telling them I had to fly in +-4hrs, they assured me its no problem they were flying in 1 hour! So, I stand with Southcoast on this matter. V1, brilliant post!
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USed to watch a certain IL-76 crew at Saurimo nearly every day. Pull up to the ramp, and while the aircraft was being offloaded and re-loaded, the crew would quaff a bottle of two of Russia's finest while sitting on coke crates playing cards. Used to make damn sure they were well out of there before I fired up.
Didnt feel like vodka powered Ivan and his 76 lurking somewhere behind me.
Didnt feel like vodka powered Ivan and his 76 lurking somewhere behind me.
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While working as a coordinator for crews I offered a former Soviet crew who were due to leave after lunch a choice of soft drinks with their burgers. They requested beer and informed me that beer is regarded as a soft drink where they come from. They got Fanta.
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V1...Ooops - an interesting post with some very valid, relevant and pertinent points which you make. I agree with a lot of what you said and give you full credit for the comprehensive outlay and articulation of your thoughts.
And yes I do agree that there are 2 tracks to accident posts, namely
1) the condolences and tributes
2) Questions pertaining to the contributing factors.
May I reitterate that I have absolutely no problem what-so-ever with the questions being asked or posed and the need to learn from the answers found, in order to avoid future accidents and mishaps.
My gripe however is the way in which you have addressed your posts. As you didn't know the crew, this is a far less sensitive issue for you and the need to learn the facts is obviously your priority. In addition to this, I am assuming that you haven't worked for either organisation and are basing your posts on hearsay and not on what you have personally experienced. I am also assuming that you haven't experienced the emotional turmoil which goes with being an employee (either pilot or management) of an organisation which has experienced this type of event.
We are all aware that there have been previous incidents/accidents for both these companies, however if you think about it from a human nature perspective, do you not think that the parties involved have taken every opportunity to learn from previous mistakes and implemented precautionary measures to prevent accidents from happening? I don't think any person or organisation would ever want something like this to happen once, let alone more than once.
The employees and management of both AirServ and CemAir, as well as the friends and family of not only the pilots, but also the pax are reading this thread. This must be absolutely devasting for all parties involved including both companies; and not only from the point of view that they have lost close friends, colleagues and co-workers. All I'm asking is that you consider all these people and the toll that this must be taking on them on all levels, especially emotionally and psychologically. Making unjustified allegations and insinuating blame, which either directly or indirectly attack these companies' and their employees moral and ethical principles is unfair.
And yes I do agree that there are 2 tracks to accident posts, namely
1) the condolences and tributes
2) Questions pertaining to the contributing factors.
May I reitterate that I have absolutely no problem what-so-ever with the questions being asked or posed and the need to learn from the answers found, in order to avoid future accidents and mishaps.
My gripe however is the way in which you have addressed your posts. As you didn't know the crew, this is a far less sensitive issue for you and the need to learn the facts is obviously your priority. In addition to this, I am assuming that you haven't worked for either organisation and are basing your posts on hearsay and not on what you have personally experienced. I am also assuming that you haven't experienced the emotional turmoil which goes with being an employee (either pilot or management) of an organisation which has experienced this type of event.
We are all aware that there have been previous incidents/accidents for both these companies, however if you think about it from a human nature perspective, do you not think that the parties involved have taken every opportunity to learn from previous mistakes and implemented precautionary measures to prevent accidents from happening? I don't think any person or organisation would ever want something like this to happen once, let alone more than once.
The employees and management of both AirServ and CemAir, as well as the friends and family of not only the pilots, but also the pax are reading this thread. This must be absolutely devasting for all parties involved including both companies; and not only from the point of view that they have lost close friends, colleagues and co-workers. All I'm asking is that you consider all these people and the toll that this must be taking on them on all levels, especially emotionally and psychologically. Making unjustified allegations and insinuating blame, which either directly or indirectly attack these companies' and their employees moral and ethical principles is unfair.
Last edited by Lifes-a-Beech; 8th Sep 2008 at 13:12. Reason: Spelling
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I put another angle to you Lifes a Beech, I am sure the families of both the crew and pax as you say might be reading this are perhaps now asking themselves just how professional the operation is that their loved ones worked for.
As you say, you would think after an operator experienced this terrible kind of accident they would implement such operating procedures to greatly reduce the chance of it ever happening again.
As Nickerbal listed earlier(post 61), AirServs poor record:
1X C210 go down in Uganda
1X B200 have a gear failure = 100% mechanics error in West Africa.
IX Heli Pilot shot & killed in Afghanistan
1X Caravan totalled in Mozambique
1X Otter totalled in DRC
1X Heli side swipe a mountain in Afghanistan
Does that record sound like a company who have learnt from the past.
Life...also said this,
'however if you think about it from a human nature perspective, do you not think that the parties involved have taken every opportunity to learn from previous mistakes and implemented precautionary measures to prevent accidents from happening? I don't think any person or organisation would ever want something like this to happen once, let alone more than once.'
Do you think your statement above applies to AirServ?
As you say, you would think after an operator experienced this terrible kind of accident they would implement such operating procedures to greatly reduce the chance of it ever happening again.
As Nickerbal listed earlier(post 61), AirServs poor record:
1X C210 go down in Uganda
1X B200 have a gear failure = 100% mechanics error in West Africa.
IX Heli Pilot shot & killed in Afghanistan
1X Caravan totalled in Mozambique
1X Otter totalled in DRC
1X Heli side swipe a mountain in Afghanistan
Does that record sound like a company who have learnt from the past.
Life...also said this,
'however if you think about it from a human nature perspective, do you not think that the parties involved have taken every opportunity to learn from previous mistakes and implemented precautionary measures to prevent accidents from happening? I don't think any person or organisation would ever want something like this to happen once, let alone more than once.'
Do you think your statement above applies to AirServ?
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South Coast - as I don't work for AirServ I cannot in all honesty answer that question accurately.
However there were two parts to my statement, firstly that "I don't think any person or organisation would ever want something like this to happen once, let alone more than once." - this I do think applies to anyone and everyone, including those at AirServ.
Secondly "do you not think that the parties involved have taken every opportunity to learn from previous mistakes and implemented precautionary measures to prevent accidents from happening?" in light of the above statement which as I've said I think does apply to AirServ, I would go with yes.
If you really want to get in to the nitty gritty, you would need to to look at the number of incidents which have occured as a percentage of the number of flights that are done, over a specific period of time, per aeroplane type. You could then examine, analyse and extrapolate the trends, causes, effects, fatalities etc. in relation to the fleet size, pilot hours, schedules etc. which would give you a far more accurate understanding of what actually is happening with in the organisation. Simply stating the number of accidents which have occured on what planes and viewing these in isolation doesn't mean much.
However there were two parts to my statement, firstly that "I don't think any person or organisation would ever want something like this to happen once, let alone more than once." - this I do think applies to anyone and everyone, including those at AirServ.
Secondly "do you not think that the parties involved have taken every opportunity to learn from previous mistakes and implemented precautionary measures to prevent accidents from happening?" in light of the above statement which as I've said I think does apply to AirServ, I would go with yes.
If you really want to get in to the nitty gritty, you would need to to look at the number of incidents which have occured as a percentage of the number of flights that are done, over a specific period of time, per aeroplane type. You could then examine, analyse and extrapolate the trends, causes, effects, fatalities etc. in relation to the fleet size, pilot hours, schedules etc. which would give you a far more accurate understanding of what actually is happening with in the organisation. Simply stating the number of accidents which have occured on what planes and viewing these in isolation doesn't mean much.
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back to the point
Getting back to the basics of this post.
This report that I was privvy to is second hand and I cannot varify the facts, but take it to be in line with what happened.
The a/c was approx 4000 feet below what they were supposed to be when they struck the side of the mountain.
There were supposed to be at 13000 feet and the accident happened at 9000 feet.(give or take a couple of feet).
Also the a/c was in a nose high position when it hit the side of the mountain, indicating that the crew realised that something was amiss and tried to power out of the situation.
The point of impact was approximately 280 meters, from the summit.
The wreckage was strewn accross a large area indicating that initialy they were in the desent before the impact.
It was 8nm from the threshold on the opposite side of the GPS approach path
indicating that they were desending on their own accord.
As they had communicated with the tower 7 mins prior to impact does not suggest that there was any emergency.
(As I said, this was conveyed to me from a witness at the scene).
Lastly, and more disgustingly, to the SACAA inspector that shouted with a grinning smirk on his face to a work collegue in an office full of people,
"Ay, xxxx, I see your mate from CEM Air has killed another 19 people".
You should not only be fired from CAA but should learn that your stupid comments are not only hurtful, but very much inflamatory and could, (should), land you in court with a very big lawsuit.
You are not only a disgrace to the SACAA, but to humanity as well.
Goffel. (embarrassed to say I work with this creature).
This report that I was privvy to is second hand and I cannot varify the facts, but take it to be in line with what happened.
The a/c was approx 4000 feet below what they were supposed to be when they struck the side of the mountain.
There were supposed to be at 13000 feet and the accident happened at 9000 feet.(give or take a couple of feet).
Also the a/c was in a nose high position when it hit the side of the mountain, indicating that the crew realised that something was amiss and tried to power out of the situation.
The point of impact was approximately 280 meters, from the summit.
The wreckage was strewn accross a large area indicating that initialy they were in the desent before the impact.
It was 8nm from the threshold on the opposite side of the GPS approach path
indicating that they were desending on their own accord.
As they had communicated with the tower 7 mins prior to impact does not suggest that there was any emergency.
(As I said, this was conveyed to me from a witness at the scene).
Lastly, and more disgustingly, to the SACAA inspector that shouted with a grinning smirk on his face to a work collegue in an office full of people,
"Ay, xxxx, I see your mate from CEM Air has killed another 19 people".
You should not only be fired from CAA but should learn that your stupid comments are not only hurtful, but very much inflamatory and could, (should), land you in court with a very big lawsuit.
You are not only a disgrace to the SACAA, but to humanity as well.
Goffel. (embarrassed to say I work with this creature).
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Yip, that is about right for GB. He is a revolting piece of work. He is vindictive, dishonest and filled with hate.
Since he doesn’t even know how many people were on board we can assume he wasted no time in gleaning the facts before showing his pleasure at the occurrence of this tragedy.
I hope somebody someday manages to explain to him what a despicable comment that was because he is far too thick to work it out on his own.
What a f#@khead.
Since he doesn’t even know how many people were on board we can assume he wasted no time in gleaning the facts before showing his pleasure at the occurrence of this tragedy.
I hope somebody someday manages to explain to him what a despicable comment that was because he is far too thick to work it out on his own.
What a f#@khead.
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What a hen-blower
Well coming from GB are we actually surprised - I mean the man barely has 2 braincells to rub together and at that, they generally can't even find each other to make a connection. Most people who are as mentally challenged as him can fall back on their personality or looks, but sadly for him, he's lacking in both those departments, which pretty much equates to him being an complete oxygen thief.
If the SACAA don't act appropriately and take this vile and loathsome man to task on his insulting, slanderous, derogatory and offensive comment, I sincerely hope that CemAir sues his @rse from here to eternity for defamation and anything else which could be thrown in for good measure.
If the SACAA don't act appropriately and take this vile and loathsome man to task on his insulting, slanderous, derogatory and offensive comment, I sincerely hope that CemAir sues his @rse from here to eternity for defamation and anything else which could be thrown in for good measure.
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This is exactly what i've been talking about...comments like this idiot has made are not called for and really serve no purpose, apart from inflicting more pain. I have no idea who this moron is but i agree with FatFlaps, slap him with a law suit
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Quote 126.3 :
Luckily the crew executed a safe forced landing on a road. It was an aircraft from cemair! (faulty fuel guage) we will never know what was the real problem, maybe the weather have nothing to do with the crash!!! My thaughts are with all of your friends and family.
Yesterday 20:13
So you say it is CemAir's fault the crew landed the Aircraft on the road near Windhoek? You my mate have absolutly no idea what you are talking about. If you know anything about a 1900, there are several indications and independant low fuel warning systems. Last but most crucial, even if all of these should fail, you should have at least an estimate, when your 30min final reserve is due to declare an emergency unless you don't have an idea, how much fuel you carried in the first place. It is a thing called fuel monitoring based on time and situational awareness and weather awareness.
Stop blaming the operator, if you don't have the facts. A lot of useful and constructive stuff has been posted here already, let us keep the discussion at an adult level please.
Luckily the crew executed a safe forced landing on a road. It was an aircraft from cemair! (faulty fuel guage) we will never know what was the real problem, maybe the weather have nothing to do with the crash!!! My thaughts are with all of your friends and family.
Yesterday 20:13
So you say it is CemAir's fault the crew landed the Aircraft on the road near Windhoek? You my mate have absolutly no idea what you are talking about. If you know anything about a 1900, there are several indications and independant low fuel warning systems. Last but most crucial, even if all of these should fail, you should have at least an estimate, when your 30min final reserve is due to declare an emergency unless you don't have an idea, how much fuel you carried in the first place. It is a thing called fuel monitoring based on time and situational awareness and weather awareness.
Stop blaming the operator, if you don't have the facts. A lot of useful and constructive stuff has been posted here already, let us keep the discussion at an adult level please.
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The other way around
It is a thing called fuel monitoring based on time and situational awareness and weather awareness.
Stop blaming the operator, if you don't have the facts. A lot of useful and constructive stuff has been posted here already, let us keep the discussion at an adult level please.
Stop blaming the operator, if you don't have the facts. A lot of useful and constructive stuff has been posted here already, let us keep the discussion at an adult level please.
The operators
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Ok so now we need to teach crews that running out of fuel is a bad idea. Fair enough.
Tomorrows lesson can be "the dangers of slaming your fingers in the door"
Anyhow, the operator was Bayair for whom both the superstars worked.
Tomorrows lesson can be "the dangers of slaming your fingers in the door"
Anyhow, the operator was Bayair for whom both the superstars worked.
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Riccardo - in all respect: the aircraft that landed on the road at FYWH was operated by BayAir and there was nobody from CemAir on the aircraft. CemAir had leased their aircraft to BayAir. So therefor BayAir is responsible to train their crew in this case. Maintenance was done on the aircraft by Aviation Center in Windhoek, so if there were snags (and by the way these do occur sometimes on any aircraft flying) these would have been in the Hands of that AMO during the lease. What guys are doing here, is blaming CemAir for an aircraft going down, just because it happens to belong to them and forget everybody else in the chain.
The aircraft that went down in Sudan was also Cemair's, however it was also dry leases and operated by foreign crew. If fuel contamination or sabotage was the cause, how can it be CemAir's fault ?
The accident that this thread is about, is the first unfortunate accident that involved CemAir's own crew and it happend to be one of their most experienced senior captains and copilots. The reasons for this are unknown at this time.
The aircraft that went down in Sudan was also Cemair's, however it was also dry leases and operated by foreign crew. If fuel contamination or sabotage was the cause, how can it be CemAir's fault ?
The accident that this thread is about, is the first unfortunate accident that involved CemAir's own crew and it happend to be one of their most experienced senior captains and copilots. The reasons for this are unknown at this time.
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Dont Speed.
Actually it was G.K who made the loathsome comment....(ex speed - cop)....but GB also had something to say.
I still have to work in the same building as the loathsome person.
The irony of the whole thing,is, that most of his collegues have come forward and said that they will be quite happy to be a witness at any hearing, should there be one.
Rest assured, if something is not done about it, I have no qualms about knocking on the Commissioners door even if it means me packing my bags afterwards.
What this loathsome person (G.K), does not realise,is that I can still get a job in the industry flying....he most certainly wont be that lucky and will have to rely on others to finance him.
Who is going to employ someone that has flown for and left most companies around and who has failed both aircraft conversions that CAA have sent him on...(737-800 + EMB 145).
I have never had such a bad taste over a distastefull comment as G.K has left in my mouth.
I hope he never has to go thru the hurt that others are going thru now even with his comment.
Goffel...(still hanging my head in shame to be associated with this creature).
I still have to work in the same building as the loathsome person.
The irony of the whole thing,is, that most of his collegues have come forward and said that they will be quite happy to be a witness at any hearing, should there be one.
Rest assured, if something is not done about it, I have no qualms about knocking on the Commissioners door even if it means me packing my bags afterwards.
What this loathsome person (G.K), does not realise,is that I can still get a job in the industry flying....he most certainly wont be that lucky and will have to rely on others to finance him.
Who is going to employ someone that has flown for and left most companies around and who has failed both aircraft conversions that CAA have sent him on...(737-800 + EMB 145).
I have never had such a bad taste over a distastefull comment as G.K has left in my mouth.
I hope he never has to go thru the hurt that others are going thru now even with his comment.
Goffel...(still hanging my head in shame to be associated with this creature).