B1900 missing in the congo?
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Goffel I am sure you are reading this thread.
Please get a link of this thread to the accident investigation team. There is some good information on this thread and it will also serve to get a message to them that we please ask them to get to the bottom of this.
Please get a link of this thread to the accident investigation team. There is some good information on this thread and it will also serve to get a message to them that we please ask them to get to the bottom of this.
It has been reported that the aircraft hit high ground approximately 15 km to the north-west of the airport, near the village of Kadjedje. The entire instrument approach procedure lies to the southwest of the airport.
The crew were familiar with the area, which suggests that they would not have intentionally descended below the known high ground until they knew with certainty that they had reached the lake, or were abeam the airport.
The accident appears to have happened in the enroute phase of flight, or during the initial descent from cruise altitude, not during maneuvering for approach.
Something is odd here. Are South African registered 19 seaters obliged to be equipped with Class A TAWS? Are they obliged to be equipped with contemporary GPS receivers, installed in accordance with a TSO (as opposed to a Garmin handheld sitting on the glareshield or clipped to the yoke)? If so, were these systems functioning properly in this aircraft?
For the record, here is the publicly advertised flight schedule: Air Serv Scheduled Flights
Here is a link to a MONUC (UN Mission in DRC) press release that provides additional details about the passenger manifest: MONUC Press Release
The crew were familiar with the area, which suggests that they would not have intentionally descended below the known high ground until they knew with certainty that they had reached the lake, or were abeam the airport.
The accident appears to have happened in the enroute phase of flight, or during the initial descent from cruise altitude, not during maneuvering for approach.
Something is odd here. Are South African registered 19 seaters obliged to be equipped with Class A TAWS? Are they obliged to be equipped with contemporary GPS receivers, installed in accordance with a TSO (as opposed to a Garmin handheld sitting on the glareshield or clipped to the yoke)? If so, were these systems functioning properly in this aircraft?
For the record, here is the publicly advertised flight schedule: Air Serv Scheduled Flights
Here is a link to a MONUC (UN Mission in DRC) press release that provides additional details about the passenger manifest: MONUC Press Release
Last edited by V1... Ooops; 5th Sep 2008 at 10:28.
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I myself, as many other guys here, have flown for the UN under contract in this region. Out of all the African contracts I have done I regard the Eastern Congo one of the most dangerous flying areas I have ever experienced.
Having lived and worked out of Goma, I have had the privileged of experiencing some of the biggest convective build ups that I have ever witnessed. These storms build to such intensity and the energy produced will scare any aviator.
The high ground coupled with the weather has taken far too many lives in this area. We tried to push the introduction of EGPWS, and we were shut down.
Having done the flight assement of the GNSS approaches myself for the UN, dont try Bukavu unless you are well familiar with approach and have equipment and training. I was one of the few we voiced our concern over.
All I can say to the guys and girls that are there or are going there, don’t push this place don’t push the mountains and don’t push the weather take the bollocking and divert back.
R.I.P my friends
Having lived and worked out of Goma, I have had the privileged of experiencing some of the biggest convective build ups that I have ever witnessed. These storms build to such intensity and the energy produced will scare any aviator.
The high ground coupled with the weather has taken far too many lives in this area. We tried to push the introduction of EGPWS, and we were shut down.
Having done the flight assement of the GNSS approaches myself for the UN, dont try Bukavu unless you are well familiar with approach and have equipment and training. I was one of the few we voiced our concern over.
All I can say to the guys and girls that are there or are going there, don’t push this place don’t push the mountains and don’t push the weather take the bollocking and divert back.
R.I.P my friends
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It is with great sadness that we confirm the loss of ZS-OLD on Monday the 1st of September 2008. The aircraft crashed into high ground on track from Kisangani to Bukavu in poor weather and heavy rain approximately 8nm from Bukavu airport. 2 crew members and 15 passengers aboard were all fatally injured.
The crew were well experienced and familiar with the area. The aircraft was in the en-route phase of the flight.
Ronny Quinn was a wonderful and experienced man. His life had taken him all over the planet doing all sorts of work but flying was his one true love. His passion for his flying was unequalled and his technical knowledge of his aircraft was astounding.
Rudi Knoetze was a positive, intelligent man and an absolute delight to know. He was a competent pilot and a well rounded gentleman. He enjoyed the highest level of respect from all he knew.
Both men were true professionals and a book could be written about the great attributes they possessed. We were lucky to have them in our lives and they will be sorely missed. A tragic loss.
We offer our condolences to the friends and family of all on board and hope that one day when the tears have stopped the warmth and smiles they gave will be remembered. Rest in peace.
I hope that the people who write some of the posts in this site will take a second to remember that their speculation may be read by friends and family of the deceased and could cause additional pain during a very tough time. We appeal to you for respect.
The crew were well experienced and familiar with the area. The aircraft was in the en-route phase of the flight.
Ronny Quinn was a wonderful and experienced man. His life had taken him all over the planet doing all sorts of work but flying was his one true love. His passion for his flying was unequalled and his technical knowledge of his aircraft was astounding.
Rudi Knoetze was a positive, intelligent man and an absolute delight to know. He was a competent pilot and a well rounded gentleman. He enjoyed the highest level of respect from all he knew.
Both men were true professionals and a book could be written about the great attributes they possessed. We were lucky to have them in our lives and they will be sorely missed. A tragic loss.
We offer our condolences to the friends and family of all on board and hope that one day when the tears have stopped the warmth and smiles they gave will be remembered. Rest in peace.
I hope that the people who write some of the posts in this site will take a second to remember that their speculation may be read by friends and family of the deceased and could cause additional pain during a very tough time. We appeal to you for respect.
Cemair:
Perhaps you could end some of the speculation by providing some facts.
You have already confirmed what many here have observed: That the crew were well experienced and familiar with the area, competent, and highly skilled. That leads to the reasonable presumption that crew error was likely not the primary cause of this accident.
What about the aircraft? Was it equipped with functional Class A TAWS? Considering that GNSS is the only navigation system that reliably serves the area your aircraft operated in, was the aircraft equipped with dual GPS, both installed in accordance with TSO and both approved by the SA CAA as the primary means of enroute and approach navigation? Do your operations specifications include SA CAA approval for use of RNP approaches? Did you provide the crews with the training the SA CAA requires to use RNP approaches?
Were the engines overhauled by the same organization that overhauled the engines on your B-1900 that crashed in Southern Sudan May 2, 2008?
We appeal to you for facts.
Perhaps you could end some of the speculation by providing some facts.
You have already confirmed what many here have observed: That the crew were well experienced and familiar with the area, competent, and highly skilled. That leads to the reasonable presumption that crew error was likely not the primary cause of this accident.
What about the aircraft? Was it equipped with functional Class A TAWS? Considering that GNSS is the only navigation system that reliably serves the area your aircraft operated in, was the aircraft equipped with dual GPS, both installed in accordance with TSO and both approved by the SA CAA as the primary means of enroute and approach navigation? Do your operations specifications include SA CAA approval for use of RNP approaches? Did you provide the crews with the training the SA CAA requires to use RNP approaches?
Were the engines overhauled by the same organization that overhauled the engines on your B-1900 that crashed in Southern Sudan May 2, 2008?
We appeal to you for facts.
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Hard lesssons to learn
This thread has raised some very valid points - both heated, and coldly considered. Bottom line is that half the posts are commisserating on the loss of two well-known and well-liked pilots, and the other half are wondering what happened and why.
What strikes me most is that no matter the speculation now, there is a substantial chance that most pilots flying around in Africa will never hear the outcome of any official investigation and enquiry into the circumstances and causes of the accident, and even less will take any notice of it. Most accidents that I can recall in recent years were rumours/bar room chat/pprune threads/chat frequency discussions etc. But little if anything of use officially. There's also an overwhelming attitude of invicibility on this continent ("it can't happen to me"), and 'shrug and carry on' regardless. It seems we think we're heroes, invincible and FAR superior to those that have gone before us - and because of it, we (and I use that in the broadest possible implication) keep on making the same, stupid, pointless, tragic errors.
How many times have planes flown CFIT in IMC in this region? Why do we keep on ploughing into terrain in poor conditions, operating into marginal airports, using airports/airstrips with flawed, home-made approaches? Why does familiarity ("yeah, I've been there before - no problem") make us so damn complacent? Every single one of us is human, and yes, we're going to bleed or die if we get it wrong.
It seems TCAS hasn't really improved things. Has there been a dip in statistics since glass cockpits arrived? Did hills suddenly spring up somewhere? When did storms become hazardous? Did GPS solve all the unnecessary/necessary CFITs? No?- then guys, we haven't learned a
thing yet. And until we do, someone, somewhere, is going to repeat the mistakes all over again, and again. We need to get smart and quickly.
Do not allow this latest sad accident be a lesson unlearned.
What strikes me most is that no matter the speculation now, there is a substantial chance that most pilots flying around in Africa will never hear the outcome of any official investigation and enquiry into the circumstances and causes of the accident, and even less will take any notice of it. Most accidents that I can recall in recent years were rumours/bar room chat/pprune threads/chat frequency discussions etc. But little if anything of use officially. There's also an overwhelming attitude of invicibility on this continent ("it can't happen to me"), and 'shrug and carry on' regardless. It seems we think we're heroes, invincible and FAR superior to those that have gone before us - and because of it, we (and I use that in the broadest possible implication) keep on making the same, stupid, pointless, tragic errors.
How many times have planes flown CFIT in IMC in this region? Why do we keep on ploughing into terrain in poor conditions, operating into marginal airports, using airports/airstrips with flawed, home-made approaches? Why does familiarity ("yeah, I've been there before - no problem") make us so damn complacent? Every single one of us is human, and yes, we're going to bleed or die if we get it wrong.
It seems TCAS hasn't really improved things. Has there been a dip in statistics since glass cockpits arrived? Did hills suddenly spring up somewhere? When did storms become hazardous? Did GPS solve all the unnecessary/necessary CFITs? No?- then guys, we haven't learned a
thing yet. And until we do, someone, somewhere, is going to repeat the mistakes all over again, and again. We need to get smart and quickly. Do not allow this latest sad accident be a lesson unlearned.
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If you look on CemAir website, you will read this:
BEECH 1900C Equipment:
Standard IFR package
IFR GPS
Colour Radar
Radar Altitude
406 ELT
TCAS
Flight data recorder
Cockpit voice recorder
Ground Proximity Warning System
HF Radio
Dual Panel
Cargo door
Atlantic Turbine of Prince Edward Island, Canada, undertakes all the maintenance and overhauls on our engines. This highly regarded facility is one of only a few facilities that have been approved by Pratt & Whitney Canada for the overhaul of PT6A engines.
BEECH 1900C Equipment:
Standard IFR package
IFR GPS
Colour Radar
Radar Altitude
406 ELT
TCAS
Flight data recorder
Cockpit voice recorder
Ground Proximity Warning System
HF Radio
Dual Panel
Cargo door
Atlantic Turbine of Prince Edward Island, Canada, undertakes all the maintenance and overhauls on our engines. This highly regarded facility is one of only a few facilities that have been approved by Pratt & Whitney Canada for the overhaul of PT6A engines.
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Had OLD's GPWS been fixed yet? Not stirring, I have good reason to ask.
And Foxcotte has a very valid point. Contract operators should be rabidly baying for accident investigation reports regarding these accidents, and passing on lessons learned to their crews.
And Foxcotte has a very valid point. Contract operators should be rabidly baying for accident investigation reports regarding these accidents, and passing on lessons learned to their crews.
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TCAS helps to stop you flying into one another, whilst GPWS or EGPWS assists in preventing a pilot from flying into terrain.
Frankly, TCAS would not really prevent CFIT.
Frankly, TCAS would not really prevent CFIT.
Last edited by planecrazi; 5th Sep 2008 at 20:07.
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Why not concentrate on facts?
I share the pain and suffering of those human lives lost in this accident, my sincere condolences to the family of the victims and friends.
If you think what is aviation nowadays, it has very few things to be invented compared to the Wright brothers? It resumes to a lot of rules legislated after many lives lost and after many accidents analyzed and causes being detected. We never had access to such amount of information and technology as today, but we cannot digest it and learn with.
Why, still accidents like these happen? Many causes for sure...
As the recovering process and identification will be concluded soon and
knowing, that in this part of the world an investigation might never be released, why not analyze the facts known on this accident and learn with them? After all we would like to know more... that is why we are here isn't?
Concerning this particular accident, anyone knows:
1. The exact location and altitude of the wreckage?
2. If there was an initial impact? If so, what were the coordinates
and altitude?
3. What was the area of the aircraft that touched the ground first?
4. Was the ELT deployed? Why?
5. Does it have CVR/FVR operational?
6. GPWS or equivalent operational?
7. What was the last complete metar provided?
8. Did they use home made approaches, since no star on Rwy17? What were the security fixes? Any or GPS straight in?
9. Altimeters, when it was last calibration done? When due? Where they both operational?
10. Does the altimeters from the wreckage indicate the pa setting? Does it matches with the QNH given by the twr?
11. Any recording from the twr when the last contact was made?
12. There are no TAF's at Bukavu, only Metar's?
13. Was this aircraft and crew, legally certified to perform a potential GNSS approach on Rwy35?
14. How much estimated fuel was on board at the time of the crash? Did they have the legal reserves? Or sufficient fob for a diversion?
15. What was the endurance reported at the time of take-off from Kisangani?
16. Did they have enough fuel to divert? If so to where?
17. What route they provided to the ATC departure aerodrome?
18. From the wreck. What did you noticed from the flap setting? Was the gear down?
19. Last HSI? Any problems detected?
20. Any snags reported? Where accepted by the MEL?
21. How many hours did the crew sleep before the flight?
22. Were they fit to fly that day? Or recovering from a heavy week-end?
23. Wx Radar was it operational?
Many questions will be associated to this accident, let's move on to facts???
Any answers?
LAS
If you think what is aviation nowadays, it has very few things to be invented compared to the Wright brothers? It resumes to a lot of rules legislated after many lives lost and after many accidents analyzed and causes being detected. We never had access to such amount of information and technology as today, but we cannot digest it and learn with.
Why, still accidents like these happen? Many causes for sure...
As the recovering process and identification will be concluded soon and
knowing, that in this part of the world an investigation might never be released, why not analyze the facts known on this accident and learn with them? After all we would like to know more... that is why we are here isn't?
Concerning this particular accident, anyone knows:
1. The exact location and altitude of the wreckage?
2. If there was an initial impact? If so, what were the coordinates
and altitude?
3. What was the area of the aircraft that touched the ground first?
4. Was the ELT deployed? Why?
5. Does it have CVR/FVR operational?
6. GPWS or equivalent operational?
7. What was the last complete metar provided?
8. Did they use home made approaches, since no star on Rwy17? What were the security fixes? Any or GPS straight in?
9. Altimeters, when it was last calibration done? When due? Where they both operational?
10. Does the altimeters from the wreckage indicate the pa setting? Does it matches with the QNH given by the twr?
11. Any recording from the twr when the last contact was made?
12. There are no TAF's at Bukavu, only Metar's?
13. Was this aircraft and crew, legally certified to perform a potential GNSS approach on Rwy35?
14. How much estimated fuel was on board at the time of the crash? Did they have the legal reserves? Or sufficient fob for a diversion?
15. What was the endurance reported at the time of take-off from Kisangani?
16. Did they have enough fuel to divert? If so to where?
17. What route they provided to the ATC departure aerodrome?
18. From the wreck. What did you noticed from the flap setting? Was the gear down?
19. Last HSI? Any problems detected?
20. Any snags reported? Where accepted by the MEL?
21. How many hours did the crew sleep before the flight?
22. Were they fit to fly that day? Or recovering from a heavy week-end?
23. Wx Radar was it operational?
Many questions will be associated to this accident, let's move on to facts???
Any answers?LAS
Last edited by LAS67; 6th Sep 2008 at 09:17.
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Congo Heads Crash Investigation.....
For those who are asking the question - Congo AAC (ex DAC) are heading the crash investigation into the B1900 accident.
A preliminary report following the initial investigation teams visit to the site (The day after the accident - yes things here are changing) has already been prepared for the NTSB and SA-CAA.
Access to the site has been difficult due to recent heavy rains and believe it or not a pride of lions having taken refuge around the site (Yes I know - Only in Africa!)
The most likely scenario seems to indicate an experienced crew entered or passed close to an active cell with the resulting downdrafts causing severe loss of altitude resulting in a collision with the surrounding terrain.
The attitude and configuration of the aircraft does NOT indicate CFIT but rather a fight on the part of the crew to maintain control of their aircraft until the very end.
The weather reported by Bukavu at the time was thunderstorms in the vicinity of the airport.
More information will be made available next week.
And YES Whenwe - they do read websites such as this and others to help provide additional information into this tradegy!
http://www.monuc.org/Home.aspx?lang=en
A preliminary report following the initial investigation teams visit to the site (The day after the accident - yes things here are changing) has already been prepared for the NTSB and SA-CAA.
Access to the site has been difficult due to recent heavy rains and believe it or not a pride of lions having taken refuge around the site (Yes I know - Only in Africa!)
The most likely scenario seems to indicate an experienced crew entered or passed close to an active cell with the resulting downdrafts causing severe loss of altitude resulting in a collision with the surrounding terrain.
The attitude and configuration of the aircraft does NOT indicate CFIT but rather a fight on the part of the crew to maintain control of their aircraft until the very end.
The weather reported by Bukavu at the time was thunderstorms in the vicinity of the airport.
More information will be made available next week.
And YES Whenwe - they do read websites such as this and others to help provide additional information into this tradegy!
http://www.monuc.org/Home.aspx?lang=en
Last edited by Mobotu; 5th Sep 2008 at 19:57. Reason: Add Link.....
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Captain Ronnie Quinn aka the Earl of Sligo
I had the priviledge to spend some time with Ronnie around Africa. I am sure others like me will miss those awful vegetarian sausages, the famous "wear 'em for a week" red socks, and tales of life on the high sea's between 20 smokes and a bucket of coffee. Ronnie was one of life's great characters who made an impression on everybody he met.
Full tanks and tail winds mate - you made us laugh, always fly high.
Full tanks and tail winds mate - you made us laugh, always fly high.
Originally Posted by BushJeppy
If you look on CemAir website, you will read this:
BEECH 1900C Equipment:
Standard IFR package
IFR GPS
Colour Radar
Radar Altitude
406 ELT
TCAS
Flight data recorder
Cockpit voice recorder
Ground Proximity Warning System
HF Radio
Dual Panel
Cargo door
BEECH 1900C Equipment:
Standard IFR package
IFR GPS
Colour Radar
Radar Altitude
406 ELT
TCAS
Flight data recorder
Cockpit voice recorder
Ground Proximity Warning System
HF Radio
Dual Panel
Cargo door
IFR GPS - Do you mean a GPSR that meets Gamma 1 performance criteria in accordance with RTCA/DO-229C, has been installed in accordance with the TSO, and has been approved by the SA CAA for sole source enroute and approach navigation? Or, perhaps, a pre-2000 GPSR that was installed back when the aircraft was built?
Did this aircraft have dual fitment of appropriately approved GPSRs, considering that GNSS is the only reliable source of navigation information in the area of operations?
Colour Radar - Was it serviceable on September 1?
TCAS - Do you mean TCAS I, TCAS II, or simply TAS (not that it is germane to this accident, but let's have a little precision here)?
Ground Proximity Warning System - GPWS? That 1970s technology has long since been retired in Europe and North America. GPWS has no terrain database and therefore cannot provide any form of predictive warning. All it can do is let you know how you relate to what your radar altimeter sees - in other words, what is directly underneath your aircraft. It offers very little protection in mountainous areas.
Class A TAWS (Terrain Awareness Warning System), which is the ICAO term for what Honeywell originally introduced as EGPWS (their proprietary name) is the current standard for turbine aircraft with 9 or more seats operated commercially. Class A TAWS does provide predictive warning, and does provide 'look-ahead' capability. Does South Africa require Class A TAWS be fitted to 19 seat turbine aircraft engaged in public commercial operations? Did this aircraft have Class A TAWS fitted? Was it functional?
You also wrote:
Originally Posted by BushJeppy
Atlantic Turbine of Prince Edward Island, Canada, undertakes all the maintenance and overhauls on our engines. This highly regarded facility is one of only a few facilities that have been approved by Pratt & Whitney Canada for the overhaul of PT6A engines.
In another thread, you wrote:
Originally Posted by BushJeppy
...But for that Airserv needs an AOC..
Does Cem Air have the appropriate AOC to carry out public commercial air carrier operations in the DRC? Did the SA CAA know what Cem Air was doing with that aircraft in the DRC?
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V1...Oops - your investigative ability is astounding - you sure there's no job for you at the CIA? What exactly is your morbid fascination with the equipment in the plane? If you that enthralled by what the plane was equipped with and you simply cannot wait for the reports to come out, why don't you just get hold of CemAir and ask them yourself?
But 13 posts later while you are still hammering away with your "attention to detail" and "appeal for facts", everyone else is paying tributes to two great aviation characters and trying to come to terms with the very sad tragedy. Please brother, have a little respect and compassion.
But 13 posts later while you are still hammering away with your "attention to detail" and "appeal for facts", everyone else is paying tributes to two great aviation characters and trying to come to terms with the very sad tragedy. Please brother, have a little respect and compassion.
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To Mobotu
King Leopard,
If you leave in Leopardville, tell me if you have the report on the last Hewa Bora at Goma....the AAC might have done the investigation there no?
How can you be so sure that results on this one will be released? Because it was SA registred? Therefore external ?
AAC has the authority to lead this investigation, as the plane went down in DRC, but why did they validate this aircraft without AOC? Knowing that it operates regular pax transport with fixed routings in DRC?
Regards,
LAS67
If you leave in Leopardville, tell me if you have the report on the last Hewa Bora at Goma....the AAC might have done the investigation there no?
How can you be so sure that results on this one will be released? Because it was SA registred? Therefore external ?
AAC has the authority to lead this investigation, as the plane went down in DRC, but why did they validate this aircraft without AOC? Knowing that it operates regular pax transport with fixed routings in DRC?
Regards,
LAS67