B1900 missing in the congo?
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Missing 1900
Hi Solid Rust Twotter,
I realy do not believe what the first investigitor quoted in his report. It is impossible to get a sample of the wreck, as the Congo wont let me visit this area, apparently it is a war stricken areas.
I do however believe that it was not a pilot error, as these two pilots, one being my son knew this area and were very responisble people. Something went wrong and I am trying to find out what? My son mentioned on facebook that thet are struggeling with the one engine.
The remarks of the pilots being in-experience or taking chances is not whortwile reading. All I can say is that whoever makes these remarks must be glad that it was not them in the cockpit. As mentioned, I spend approximately 150 hours in the cockpits of some of the aircraft with my son.
Something went wrong and it is not easy to find out. I had some correspondance from one of the pilots that flew with my son in the DRC stating that the Voice Cocpit Recorder was removed as it was faulty and that the black box revealed very little information. Just show you that somebody got this information, but it seems impossible for me to get it.
Regards,
Johan
I realy do not believe what the first investigitor quoted in his report. It is impossible to get a sample of the wreck, as the Congo wont let me visit this area, apparently it is a war stricken areas.
I do however believe that it was not a pilot error, as these two pilots, one being my son knew this area and were very responisble people. Something went wrong and I am trying to find out what? My son mentioned on facebook that thet are struggeling with the one engine.
The remarks of the pilots being in-experience or taking chances is not whortwile reading. All I can say is that whoever makes these remarks must be glad that it was not them in the cockpit. As mentioned, I spend approximately 150 hours in the cockpits of some of the aircraft with my son.
Something went wrong and it is not easy to find out. I had some correspondance from one of the pilots that flew with my son in the DRC stating that the Voice Cocpit Recorder was removed as it was faulty and that the black box revealed very little information. Just show you that somebody got this information, but it seems impossible for me to get it.
Regards,
Johan
Last edited by JohanKnoetze; 15th Sep 2009 at 05:15.
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I ran into some Air Serv pilots in Entebbe recently. From what they said, it is quite grim, as they have lost contracts in a lot of countries including all of Congo and Afghanistan. The company has a lot of problems they're dealing with and it is quite possible that they will fail. Apparently they have five airplanes sitting on the ground in the hangar in Entebbe that are costing a mint. Gook oaks, but they seemed quite frustrated with high level management.
Originally Posted by Solid Rust TwinOtter
Why would anyone waste an expensive asset like a MANPAD on a low value target like a Papa Charlie full of nobodies?
Michael
Originally Posted by Johan Knoetze
...I do however believe that it was not a pilot error, as these two pilots, one being my son knew this area and were very responisble people. Something went wrong and I am trying to find out what?
First of all, please accept my most sincere condolances on the loss of your son.
I don't know what the cause of the B1900 accident was. It could have been the result of a human error, or a serious weather problem, or a mechanical failure.
Skilled pilots - no matter how careful they are - can and do make errors, and even today, pilot errors are the most common cause of aviation accidents and incidents. Do keep in mind that there were two crewmembers on duty in the aircraft, and it is possible that your son was not the "Pilot Flying" on that particular flight. It is normal practice for the two crewmembers to alternate duties from flight to flight, with one crewmember actually handling the aircraft (the "Flying Pilot"), and the other crewmember looking after radio communication and other duties (the "Pilot Not Flying").
I hope this thought gives you some comfort.
Michael
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Hallo Johan,
My sincere condolences, even a year later, it is always a terrible loss!!
Due to various reasons , Governments, Companies and some individuals would prefer not to find out the truth.
If I could suggest, normally the most important people who try and establish what happened will be the insurance company who did the insurance of the aircraft.
The reason is: they are the people who have to settle all the insurance claims, that might arrise from an accident. Insurance companies investigate independedly, and some investigators are very good.
My experience with these companies are that they normally investigate all avenues before they make a payment. ( They have there reasons)
Try and establish whith which insurance company the aircraft was insured, who was the investigator, and ask for assistance.
I trust this might help you.
My sincere condolences, even a year later, it is always a terrible loss!!
Due to various reasons , Governments, Companies and some individuals would prefer not to find out the truth.
If I could suggest, normally the most important people who try and establish what happened will be the insurance company who did the insurance of the aircraft.
The reason is: they are the people who have to settle all the insurance claims, that might arrise from an accident. Insurance companies investigate independedly, and some investigators are very good.
My experience with these companies are that they normally investigate all avenues before they make a payment. ( They have there reasons)
Try and establish whith which insurance company the aircraft was insured, who was the investigator, and ask for assistance.
I trust this might help you.
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Accident ZS-OLD Congo
Hi Michael,
Thank you very much for your reply. I really appreciate each and every response. I fully agree that pilots do make mistakes, as we are all human. I also understand that altough the one pilot is flying the plane, they work together as a team. I am not blaming any one of them(the two pilots) or trying to say that it was not my sons fault. My fustration however, is that I cannot get the results on the black box. Surely this will tell the story. By analysing this report, according to my limited knowledge, one would be able to see if there was a steady decent and then the impact, which would indicate that it could be a pilots error, or alternatively that they lost altitude, which could indicated that there was a problem. This is all I need to finally accept what happened. We know that there was no voice cockpit recorder, therefore we do not know what was said in the cockpit.
Why is it so difficult to get the report on the black box?. According to the chief pilot - Air Serv, the black box (data recorder) was send to the USA to be analysised. The results/report was given to the DRC during Jan/Feb 2009. Civil Aviation SA did not do an investigation, and promised to get this info from the Congo. When requesting the NTSB to assist, I was also told by Dennis Jones (NTSB), to request this information via the Sout African Embassy, which I did. Needless to say I am still awaining any information. However, I am waiting patiently for the last five months.
Regards,
Johan
Thank you very much for your reply. I really appreciate each and every response. I fully agree that pilots do make mistakes, as we are all human. I also understand that altough the one pilot is flying the plane, they work together as a team. I am not blaming any one of them(the two pilots) or trying to say that it was not my sons fault. My fustration however, is that I cannot get the results on the black box. Surely this will tell the story. By analysing this report, according to my limited knowledge, one would be able to see if there was a steady decent and then the impact, which would indicate that it could be a pilots error, or alternatively that they lost altitude, which could indicated that there was a problem. This is all I need to finally accept what happened. We know that there was no voice cockpit recorder, therefore we do not know what was said in the cockpit.
Why is it so difficult to get the report on the black box?. According to the chief pilot - Air Serv, the black box (data recorder) was send to the USA to be analysised. The results/report was given to the DRC during Jan/Feb 2009. Civil Aviation SA did not do an investigation, and promised to get this info from the Congo. When requesting the NTSB to assist, I was also told by Dennis Jones (NTSB), to request this information via the Sout African Embassy, which I did. Needless to say I am still awaining any information. However, I am waiting patiently for the last five months.
Regards,
Johan
Mr. Knoetze:
I am quite perplexed about why the South African civil aviation regulator cannot provide you with the information you are seeking - that being the record of the last moments of the flight that has been recovered from the flight data recorder.
Under ICAO Annex 13, which governs aircraft accident investigations, the state of registry of the aircraft has the right to participate in an aircraft accident investigation that involves an aircraft on its register. Normally, the state in which the accident takes place will take the leadership role in such an investigation, but it is not unheard of for another interested party - such as the state of registration of the aircraft involved - to offer to take the leadership role, especially if the country in which the accident occurs has limited resources or limited expertise.
I made several posts on page 4 of this discussion that specifically addressed the legal and moral responsibility of the South African CAA in this accident. Like you, I am very disheartened to see that the South African CAA does not appear to be doing everything they can to bring full transparency to this investigation, and to learn lessons from it that can be used to prevent similar accidents in the future.
Based on what we have seen so far, it appears that the South African CAA takes an "out of sight, out of mind" approach to their responsibilities to provide operational supervision and oversight to aircraft registered in South Africa when those aircraft are operating abroad.
I am quite perplexed about why the South African civil aviation regulator cannot provide you with the information you are seeking - that being the record of the last moments of the flight that has been recovered from the flight data recorder.
Under ICAO Annex 13, which governs aircraft accident investigations, the state of registry of the aircraft has the right to participate in an aircraft accident investigation that involves an aircraft on its register. Normally, the state in which the accident takes place will take the leadership role in such an investigation, but it is not unheard of for another interested party - such as the state of registration of the aircraft involved - to offer to take the leadership role, especially if the country in which the accident occurs has limited resources or limited expertise.
I made several posts on page 4 of this discussion that specifically addressed the legal and moral responsibility of the South African CAA in this accident. Like you, I am very disheartened to see that the South African CAA does not appear to be doing everything they can to bring full transparency to this investigation, and to learn lessons from it that can be used to prevent similar accidents in the future.
Based on what we have seen so far, it appears that the South African CAA takes an "out of sight, out of mind" approach to their responsibilities to provide operational supervision and oversight to aircraft registered in South Africa when those aircraft are operating abroad.
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Missing 1900
Hi Michael,
Thank you for the info. Yes, according to information received and as stated in my correspondance the data has been analysed. However, it is more than a mission to get it. I was also told not to expect any report to be issued by the DRC.
Johan
Thank you for the info. Yes, according to information received and as stated in my correspondance the data has been analysed. However, it is more than a mission to get it. I was also told not to expect any report to be issued by the DRC.
Johan
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Hi,
I used to fly the route that they crashed on almost 5 days a week for the united nations. The weather on that route could very possibly be the worst weather you will experience in Africa(having flown west central south and north africa) The weather around Bukarvu is extremely bad(and world renowned for it), and scared the hell out of me!!!!down drafts over the top of those mountains are very common, and alot of them would be strong enough to put any aircraft flying fairly low over the top into the terrain below. I didnt know your son, but i new the other pilot, and know his flying history, and i have no doubt in my mind that they were experienced enough to be doing the type of flying they were doing, I know the contracts in that area quiet well, and the requirements to fly one of those aircraft are extremely steep......I really am sorry about what happened to your son, and hope you do get to the bottom of it....having seen where the a/c crashed and the position of the wreckage, i am willing to bet a severe down draft played a roll in it, and if as you said earlier they were having issues with one of the engines.......this could make a recoverable attitude, impossible to get out of! Good luck, the truth will surface eventually!
I used to fly the route that they crashed on almost 5 days a week for the united nations. The weather on that route could very possibly be the worst weather you will experience in Africa(having flown west central south and north africa) The weather around Bukarvu is extremely bad(and world renowned for it), and scared the hell out of me!!!!down drafts over the top of those mountains are very common, and alot of them would be strong enough to put any aircraft flying fairly low over the top into the terrain below. I didnt know your son, but i new the other pilot, and know his flying history, and i have no doubt in my mind that they were experienced enough to be doing the type of flying they were doing, I know the contracts in that area quiet well, and the requirements to fly one of those aircraft are extremely steep......I really am sorry about what happened to your son, and hope you do get to the bottom of it....having seen where the a/c crashed and the position of the wreckage, i am willing to bet a severe down draft played a roll in it, and if as you said earlier they were having issues with one of the engines.......this could make a recoverable attitude, impossible to get out of! Good luck, the truth will surface eventually!
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ZS-OLD
The aircraft hit the ridge at around 9800', the MSA is 13200'-14200' in the direction they were comming from, impact was more than 3000' below MSA, and that is a fact.
If it broke up in the air, explosion on board or hit my a MANPAD, doing in the vicinity of 150-200 kts, the wreckage would have been strewn over a much larger area not so? if there was a downdraft severe enough to let a 1900 lose a 1000', nevermind 3000' ,there would have been evidence on the ground, a severe microburst leaves a lot of tell tale signs.
I am no expert but witnessed the impala that lost a wing at Lanseria years ago, and that wreckage was spread well over 2 km.
I think the FDR will tell , but it might not be what you want to hear.
If it broke up in the air, explosion on board or hit my a MANPAD, doing in the vicinity of 150-200 kts, the wreckage would have been strewn over a much larger area not so? if there was a downdraft severe enough to let a 1900 lose a 1000', nevermind 3000' ,there would have been evidence on the ground, a severe microburst leaves a lot of tell tale signs.
I am no expert but witnessed the impala that lost a wing at Lanseria years ago, and that wreckage was spread well over 2 km.
I think the FDR will tell , but it might not be what you want to hear.
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ZS-OLd
Hi Kronos,
Thank you for the information. I do not know where you get your facts from, as you stated that this is a fact. It is not about what I want to hear, but about the facts. If you have the facts, please supply me with your e-mail address, in order to communicate with you. It seems like you are the person I was looking for, as you have the FACTs. Dont know where you got it from, however, I am looking forward to see if you would be brave enough to send me a private message.
Regards,
Johan
Thank you for the information. I do not know where you get your facts from, as you stated that this is a fact. It is not about what I want to hear, but about the facts. If you have the facts, please supply me with your e-mail address, in order to communicate with you. It seems like you are the person I was looking for, as you have the FACTs. Dont know where you got it from, however, I am looking forward to see if you would be brave enough to send me a private message.
Regards,
Johan
Last edited by JohanKnoetze; 15th Sep 2009 at 14:10.
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Sadly, the MSA is a fact, it can be read off the chart. Equally the altitude of impact is a fact and has been measured at the value stated. The diffence between them is a simple calculation.
The aircraft was in contact with Bukavu and made no indication of any distress. There is in fact no indication of any kind of aircraft failure, in any of the evidence.
As difficult as this may be you may have to accept that the overwhelming body of evidence points to Controlled Flight into Terrain. It is unlikely that any more is going to be done to discover anymore, the DRC just isn't that kind of place.
May your son rest in peace.
The aircraft was in contact with Bukavu and made no indication of any distress. There is in fact no indication of any kind of aircraft failure, in any of the evidence.
As difficult as this may be you may have to accept that the overwhelming body of evidence points to Controlled Flight into Terrain. It is unlikely that any more is going to be done to discover anymore, the DRC just isn't that kind of place.
May your son rest in peace.
Fuzzy:
I think that Mr. Knoetze's point is that he would like to be able to see some evidence of what exactly happened. This is something that we usually take for granted when aircraft accidents occur- in other words, we take for granted that there will be a proper investigation and that a report of factual findings will be released.
In this particular case, the state in which the accident occurred does not have the resources or the expertise to carry out an investigation, and the two other involved states (South Africa, the state of registry, and the United States of America, the state of the operator of the aircraft) appear to have no desire to investigate the accident.
The NTSB of the USA has provided technical assistance in the form of extracting the data from the FDR. As is right and proper under ICAO Annex 13, they have provided this data to the DRC (state where the accident occurred). Mr. Knoetze has asked South Africa to request this transcript from the DRC, and it appears that South Africa has not yet requested this transcript, or, has not elected to share the information that it reveals with him.
The only way that anyone can determine the cause of this accident with any level of confidence would be to look at the FDR transcript. The record of the aircraft's speed, heading, and rate of descent during the last few minutes of flight would be sufficient to determine if the aircraft hit the ground in controlled flight, or suffered an airframe abnormality of some kind that lead to a descent below MOCA, or suffered a catastrophic failure of one kind or another. Absent this information, everything else is just speculation.
I think that Mr. Knoetze's point is that he would like to be able to see some evidence of what exactly happened. This is something that we usually take for granted when aircraft accidents occur- in other words, we take for granted that there will be a proper investigation and that a report of factual findings will be released.
In this particular case, the state in which the accident occurred does not have the resources or the expertise to carry out an investigation, and the two other involved states (South Africa, the state of registry, and the United States of America, the state of the operator of the aircraft) appear to have no desire to investigate the accident.
The NTSB of the USA has provided technical assistance in the form of extracting the data from the FDR. As is right and proper under ICAO Annex 13, they have provided this data to the DRC (state where the accident occurred). Mr. Knoetze has asked South Africa to request this transcript from the DRC, and it appears that South Africa has not yet requested this transcript, or, has not elected to share the information that it reveals with him.
The only way that anyone can determine the cause of this accident with any level of confidence would be to look at the FDR transcript. The record of the aircraft's speed, heading, and rate of descent during the last few minutes of flight would be sufficient to determine if the aircraft hit the ground in controlled flight, or suffered an airframe abnormality of some kind that lead to a descent below MOCA, or suffered a catastrophic failure of one kind or another. Absent this information, everything else is just speculation.
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Hi Michael,
Thank you very much for your response. This is exactly what I want. I could not have explained it better than you have put it in your response. I am not denying that this could be a pilot error. All I am saying is - give me the black box information, or show it to me and I will accept the outcome. The only thing that I want, in order to get closure, is the facts. No more communication or questions after this. However, none of the authorities are prepared to help me to obtain the FDR information. The people can explain how the FDR works, calculations etc, hoever show me the info and I will except. Until then, I will keep asking questions.
Regards,
Johan
Thank you very much for your response. This is exactly what I want. I could not have explained it better than you have put it in your response. I am not denying that this could be a pilot error. All I am saying is - give me the black box information, or show it to me and I will accept the outcome. The only thing that I want, in order to get closure, is the facts. No more communication or questions after this. However, none of the authorities are prepared to help me to obtain the FDR information. The people can explain how the FDR works, calculations etc, hoever show me the info and I will except. Until then, I will keep asking questions.
Regards,
Johan
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Hi Fuzzy Lager,
I accept what you are saying. However, have you had sight of the FDR report/analysis? You sound very confident, however, without haveing sight of this, it will remain rumours.
Regards,
Johan
I accept what you are saying. However, have you had sight of the FDR report/analysis? You sound very confident, however, without haveing sight of this, it will remain rumours.
Regards,
Johan