Prang at Livingstone - C210 - September 2004
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GUSTO
Not only are you from FOOL, you ARE a FOOL. You have the compassion of a crayfish. If you want to attack someone afetr a MAJOR accident and loss, go to another forum. You base your opinion on pure gosip.
Get a life...
Not only are you from FOOL, you ARE a FOOL. You have the compassion of a crayfish. If you want to attack someone afetr a MAJOR accident and loss, go to another forum. You base your opinion on pure gosip.
Get a life...
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DualDriver
First of all you probably did not understand the meaning of PPRUNE , this is a rumour network.
Secondly I have worked for the company that took this plane on lease and I know Flying Bean (+ the other owners) and the way they used to operate aircrafts and treats young pilots , so I think you have NO advises to give me.
As for your insults , a 5 years old kid will have done better , so keep on trying ...
Gusto
First of all you probably did not understand the meaning of PPRUNE , this is a rumour network.
Secondly I have worked for the company that took this plane on lease and I know Flying Bean (+ the other owners) and the way they used to operate aircrafts and treats young pilots , so I think you have NO advises to give me.
As for your insults , a 5 years old kid will have done better , so keep on trying ...
Gusto
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GUSTO, yes you are entitled to your opinion, but courtesy suggests that you temper it with common sense. I lost very good friends in this accident, it hurts me so much, and what I want to know right now are FACTS. Proven, substantiated FACTS. I well know the rumours etc that fly around after events like this, but if you feel the need to spill all this so urgently, please consider others before you do it. Rubbishing someone who is not here to defend him/herself is lowest of the low.
If you have concerns regarding the company, perhaps PM the individuals involved.
My friends were lovely people who believed in forgiveness. They would want to know why it happened, not who to blame. There is always more than one factor in accidents, a chain of events. If, as you claim, the company had some part to play, it was only a link in the chain. People are human, they make mistakes. We are here reading this thread because we want to know what and why it happened, so that perhaps if one day, unfortunately, it happens to us, we may have a better idea of what may be done. We are not here to start a mudslinging match.
Remember that the forum owner may be held liable for any remarks that may be found to be slanderous.
Lots of people are hurting because of this. I am sure the company's people are too. You don't need to add to it also.
I say this respectfully, as already rumours have caused unnecessary pain to the family and friends involved. They are going through enough without extra burdens being thrown upon them by thoughtless individuals out to tell 'sensationalist' news. Things said/printed cannot be easily taken back. You may feel the need to reply with sarcasm or anger, if you do so, then may I say I only pity you for not being adult enough to accept someone else's viewpoint.
Sky
If you have concerns regarding the company, perhaps PM the individuals involved.
My friends were lovely people who believed in forgiveness. They would want to know why it happened, not who to blame. There is always more than one factor in accidents, a chain of events. If, as you claim, the company had some part to play, it was only a link in the chain. People are human, they make mistakes. We are here reading this thread because we want to know what and why it happened, so that perhaps if one day, unfortunately, it happens to us, we may have a better idea of what may be done. We are not here to start a mudslinging match.
Remember that the forum owner may be held liable for any remarks that may be found to be slanderous.
Lots of people are hurting because of this. I am sure the company's people are too. You don't need to add to it also.
I say this respectfully, as already rumours have caused unnecessary pain to the family and friends involved. They are going through enough without extra burdens being thrown upon them by thoughtless individuals out to tell 'sensationalist' news. Things said/printed cannot be easily taken back. You may feel the need to reply with sarcasm or anger, if you do so, then may I say I only pity you for not being adult enough to accept someone else's viewpoint.
Sky
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Glad to see a civil reply, Gusto. As for this:
Perhaps lodging a CAIR form (or African equivalent), or a letter/phone call to the relevant person on that country's Aviation Safety board would do the trick. If there are indeed serious points for concern, they must be looked at if a formal complaint/report is lodged. May I ask if you have done so? I'd hate to think that any negligence causing an accident went unchecked because no-one bothered to report it. Not pointing the finger at you, but something to think about. As you say, the tiny problem we see one day may be tomorrow's fatalities. Better to report it and look stupid if it's nothing than to not report and have to wake up to hear what happened to my friends & Mr Channer.
Topics of this nature are always touchy, and yes, I may be a bit too close to it to have commented, but.... Perhaps hitting the 'preview' button and re-reading may help next time...?
Atlas, no worries mate...
Sky
My messages were not written to blame someone , but to take into consideration things that need to be CHANGED. Safety will improve if we all contibute to understand what happened , why and how can we avoid it next time .
Topics of this nature are always touchy, and yes, I may be a bit too close to it to have commented, but.... Perhaps hitting the 'preview' button and re-reading may help next time...?
Atlas, no worries mate...
Sky
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Hi guys,
Just wondering if anyone has heard anything else WRT this accident? e.g. reports, findings etc? Had heard that some parts etc were being sent to NTSB, does anyone know how long it will be until they will have some sort of report?
Thanks for any info you have.
Sky
Just wondering if anyone has heard anything else WRT this accident? e.g. reports, findings etc? Had heard that some parts etc were being sent to NTSB, does anyone know how long it will be until they will have some sort of report?
Thanks for any info you have.
Sky
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An Inspector from NSTB who was visiting RSA in Nov/Dec 2004 had a look at the engine and prop (now here in RSA) and determined that only the Prop and Shaft needed to go to USA.
There then followed 3 months (!!!) of beaurocratic confusion with the various DCA's and the part finally left RSA for the USA last week.
So we still have some way to go, but I will keep the forum posted as things progress.
There then followed 3 months (!!!) of beaurocratic confusion with the various DCA's and the part finally left RSA for the USA last week.
So we still have some way to go, but I will keep the forum posted as things progress.
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Thanks Flying Bean 
Didn't mean to come across pushy, I am just antsy to see how things are going, as I'm sure you will understand!
Thanks very much, at least I know that things are moving along still.
Didn't mean to come across pushy, I am just antsy to see how things are going, as I'm sure you will understand!
Thanks very much, at least I know that things are moving along still.
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Prang at Livingstone - C210 - September 2004
Quote: “....but I will keep the forum posted as things progress.”
It’s been nearly three and a half years since the crash. This would seem to be long enough for a report to have been issued. Is an official report available? If so, would somebody kindly post the link to it or, if not available on-line, scan it or at least the summary/findings and post it here. Thanks.
It’s been nearly three and a half years since the crash. This would seem to be long enough for a report to have been issued. Is an official report available? If so, would somebody kindly post the link to it or, if not available on-line, scan it or at least the summary/findings and post it here. Thanks.
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The Propless C210
Carrier and others.
Your reminder is well timed.
(To briefly remind others. C210 on Charter with a Canadian Pilot and 5 British and Australian pax crashed 33nm after take off from Livingstone when the prop detached. No survivours)
This reply comes from the Action Group of the Families and Owner.
We were due to make a major press release at the end of January 2008, but have had to postpone the matter for maybe another 30 or 60 days.
The Zambian DCA Final Report (26 pages) did come out in Sept 2005. But the nub of the matter lies in the USA NTSB report (incorporated in the Zambian Report) and Australian ASB reports. Since the release of the Final Report, every single month there has been a significant action or reaction by the the various Authorities involved in the investigation up to and including this month. This very much restricts comments we can make at this time. There is very much a legal minefield to be negotiated.
I will attempt to post a link to the Final Report in the next couple of days.
In the meantime I can quote from Page 25 of the report:-
Para 3.2
a) Causes
The Investigating team determined that the cause of this accident was the in-flight detachment of the propeller from the aircraft as a result of the loss of preload of the propeller assembly attachment studs.
b) Probable contributing factors
i) Imporper torque of propeller studs
ii) Failure to wire lock the studs allowed the studs to back out of the propeller hub assembly resulting in the separation of the propeller from the aircarft.
iii) Failure to follow correct propeller installation proceedures
iv) Failure to use identifiable manufactures approved parts
#######
The engine was 220 hrs since Major Overhaul.
The aircraft was 30 hrs since MPI. (2 MPIs were done since the O/H)
We the Action Group, are very anxious that there should be a full and public discussion of this incident but would request your patience for a while longer.
Your reminder is well timed.
(To briefly remind others. C210 on Charter with a Canadian Pilot and 5 British and Australian pax crashed 33nm after take off from Livingstone when the prop detached. No survivours)
This reply comes from the Action Group of the Families and Owner.
We were due to make a major press release at the end of January 2008, but have had to postpone the matter for maybe another 30 or 60 days.
The Zambian DCA Final Report (26 pages) did come out in Sept 2005. But the nub of the matter lies in the USA NTSB report (incorporated in the Zambian Report) and Australian ASB reports. Since the release of the Final Report, every single month there has been a significant action or reaction by the the various Authorities involved in the investigation up to and including this month. This very much restricts comments we can make at this time. There is very much a legal minefield to be negotiated.
I will attempt to post a link to the Final Report in the next couple of days.
In the meantime I can quote from Page 25 of the report:-
Para 3.2
a) Causes
The Investigating team determined that the cause of this accident was the in-flight detachment of the propeller from the aircraft as a result of the loss of preload of the propeller assembly attachment studs.
b) Probable contributing factors
i) Imporper torque of propeller studs
ii) Failure to wire lock the studs allowed the studs to back out of the propeller hub assembly resulting in the separation of the propeller from the aircarft.
iii) Failure to follow correct propeller installation proceedures
iv) Failure to use identifiable manufactures approved parts
#######
The engine was 220 hrs since Major Overhaul.
The aircraft was 30 hrs since MPI. (2 MPIs were done since the O/H)
We the Action Group, are very anxious that there should be a full and public discussion of this incident but would request your patience for a while longer.
Last edited by Flying Bean; 18th Feb 2008 at 09:14.
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Flying Bean, thanks for the update. That makes interesting reading!
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) has its final report available on its website. See occurrence 200405510. It does not come to any conclusions, so adds nothing further to everything above. http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...200405510.aspx
The crash is referenced on the NTSB site under WAS04WA015. There seems to be a problem with the NTSB site as every attempt to access the report results in the following message: “Sorry, we are experiencing a problem with the database.”
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) has its final report available on its website. See occurrence 200405510. It does not come to any conclusions, so adds nothing further to everything above. http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...200405510.aspx
The crash is referenced on the NTSB site under WAS04WA015. There seems to be a problem with the NTSB site as every attempt to access the report results in the following message: “Sorry, we are experiencing a problem with the database.”
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sorry for bad odds
Out of the business for ten years, i read this thread with lots of regrets
Pilot fault
plane fault
maintenace fault
business fault
whatever the correct arrangment
Who cares ! familly and all parties involves
It come to the conlusion that something went wrong and lives were lost.
This is sad, very sad and paintfull, and no punishment will solve this fact.
It is a lesson for everyone that will make their best to make sure this king of accident does not occure again.
Best regards to the passengers family , pilot family, and company family.
Sylvain
Pilot fault
plane fault
maintenace fault
business fault
whatever the correct arrangment
Who cares ! familly and all parties involves
It come to the conlusion that something went wrong and lives were lost.
This is sad, very sad and paintfull, and no punishment will solve this fact.
It is a lesson for everyone that will make their best to make sure this king of accident does not occure again.
Best regards to the passengers family , pilot family, and company family.
Sylvain
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What has happened about this?
Who are the members of the Action Group?
What has the Action Group achieved?
What has happened to the full and public discussion of this incident/crash?
Who are the members of the Action Group?
What has the Action Group achieved?
What has happened to the full and public discussion of this incident/crash?
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Is there still no progress with this? It would seem to be clear that the prop was incorrectly fastened with illegal parts and that this was a major cause of the crash. If so, has anyone been charged? If not, why not?
Who are the members of the Action Group?
Who are the members of the Action Group?
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210 Crash
As far as I know the maintenance company who did the last MPI was found guilty, lost their license to operate (AMO) and got sued for a few million in liabilities, and I think guilty on manslaughter...
The owner of the AMO, had a AOC as well, traded in bankrupsy and owes a lot of people a lot of money....bankrupted the business, and is currently trying to ressurect the whole thing, go to Nelspruit South Africa, they own half the airport....
Keith might have the nitty gritty details, I have lost touch with him.
OUTCOME, the propeller was fixed to the crankshaft without the "torque studs" therfore the propeller bolts took all the torque and gyroscopic force, and eventually broke off,
this is all second hand or older info, but you can allways call RIALEN air in Nelspruit and talk to the owner
The owner of the AMO, had a AOC as well, traded in bankrupsy and owes a lot of people a lot of money....bankrupted the business, and is currently trying to ressurect the whole thing, go to Nelspruit South Africa, they own half the airport....
Keith might have the nitty gritty details, I have lost touch with him.
OUTCOME, the propeller was fixed to the crankshaft without the "torque studs" therfore the propeller bolts took all the torque and gyroscopic force, and eventually broke off,
this is all second hand or older info, but you can allways call RIALEN air in Nelspruit and talk to the owner
