Prang at Livingstone - C210 - September 2004
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The Real Story
Sorry Guys but this is going to have to come out in bits and pieces for now in a very formal and precise manner.
1.DCA confirm there is NO Foundation to the story of an oil leak prior to take off.
2. On climb out after about 20 mins a sudden and heavy oil leak was followed by the Prop separating from the engine and subsequent engine failure.
Will try for more info when I can.
Please also see "Farewell to Mike" for memorial service details.
1.DCA confirm there is NO Foundation to the story of an oil leak prior to take off.
2. On climb out after about 20 mins a sudden and heavy oil leak was followed by the Prop separating from the engine and subsequent engine failure.
Will try for more info when I can.
Please also see "Farewell to Mike" for memorial service details.
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I know the three Australians in the crash, family friends for years, the married couple are friends of mine.
Just wanted to pass on my condolences to the family of the pilot, as I know what they are going through. It is very strange being here in Australia and not knowing much, apart from the online newspapers, of course much is conjecture and rumor, will have to wait for report.
Thank you to those who are trying to find out why this had to happen.
Sky
Just wanted to pass on my condolences to the family of the pilot, as I know what they are going through. It is very strange being here in Australia and not knowing much, apart from the online newspapers, of course much is conjecture and rumor, will have to wait for report.
Thank you to those who are trying to find out why this had to happen.
Sky
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I flew for Airwaves last year, so I know how this will affect them. Theo takes the safety and well being of his pilots very personally. My thoughts are with everyone involved.
Learjet 1955. By your own admission your comments are just gossiping. I don't think that it's very appropriate in the circumstances. Tell me you've never taken off with a small oil leak in a piston! You're casting doubt over the professionalism of both pilot and organisation when I suspect you have little knowledge of either.
Wait for the official finding before you feel the need to comment negatively.
Maybe now that you fly a jet, you've forgotten what its like to fly in a piston single?
JF
Learjet 1955. By your own admission your comments are just gossiping. I don't think that it's very appropriate in the circumstances. Tell me you've never taken off with a small oil leak in a piston! You're casting doubt over the professionalism of both pilot and organisation when I suspect you have little knowledge of either.
Wait for the official finding before you feel the need to comment negatively.
Maybe now that you fly a jet, you've forgotten what its like to fly in a piston single?
JF
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Jockflyer, nicely said!
This guy is out of line. Learjet 1955; people died and a good aviator was lost. Don't go and gossip if you don't have the correct facts. How do one of us know if there was a small oil leak or not anycase. It's not like one would transmit "Tower xxx requesting take-off, oh yes and by the way, I have a small oil leak..." Look at all the other postings of the other guys in this section; they all show compassion...
This guy is out of line. Learjet 1955; people died and a good aviator was lost. Don't go and gossip if you don't have the correct facts. How do one of us know if there was a small oil leak or not anycase. It's not like one would transmit "Tower xxx requesting take-off, oh yes and by the way, I have a small oil leak..." Look at all the other postings of the other guys in this section; they all show compassion...
Gatvol
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Mainrotor
Dont be too hard on things. Major problem on these threads when there is an accident is some of the folks want to know what happened as soon as possible so that maybe it wont happen again. Others want to make the thread a condolence thread for the families. When these overlap your certainly not going to make friends. It happens all the time.
Dont be too hard on things. Major problem on these threads when there is an accident is some of the folks want to know what happened as soon as possible so that maybe it wont happen again. Others want to make the thread a condolence thread for the families. When these overlap your certainly not going to make friends. It happens all the time.
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(Also posted in the Farewell to Mike thread in Africa Aviation)
Today I attended the Memorial Service for my friends Shirley, Matthew & Justine Watters, (the three Australians who died in the crash.)
We were given this program, I thought I would share the message on the back from their families. Mike was mentioned a number of times in the service.
Matt's unbelieveable musical talent, and Justine's megawatt smile will never be forgotten. Shirley so caring to all.
Six people who will be very dearly missed by those who love them.
Sky
Today I attended the Memorial Service for my friends Shirley, Matthew & Justine Watters, (the three Australians who died in the crash.)
We were given this program, I thought I would share the message on the back from their families. Mike was mentioned a number of times in the service.
Matt's unbelieveable musical talent, and Justine's megawatt smile will never be forgotten. Shirley so caring to all.
Six people who will be very dearly missed by those who love them.
Sky
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B Sousa, what you say are definitely true; but therefore it is best that one wait before a person starts criticizing on rumours. And yes this is a rumour network, but one needs to be very selective what you "rumour" about, especially with a sensitive case like this one before the official findings are made public.
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26th September 2004
STATEMENT FROM THE OWNER OF THE AIRCRAFT
ZS-KOX was a 1980 C210N (IO 550) which has been owned by myself (Travelafrica cc) for 15 years. Although it was my personal aircraft it has always been licensed and maintained in the Public Category. It was 212 hrs SMOH, 27 hrs since MPI. (with a major South African AMO).
The PIC, Canadian Mike Channer, had been flying the aircraft since its Major Overhaul.
His TT was 650 hrs+. He had been Licensed and Tested by the South African DCA for Commercial Operations.
The Aircraft was on a Temporary Short Term Lease to Airwaves Airlink in Zambia and engaged on a Charter Flight from Livingstone to Lusaka (1+5). The DCA Investigation Team confirm there was no oil leak reported BY anyone TO anyone prior to takeoff. (the source of this very irresponsible report was a Zambian Newspaper which was not able to verify any source).
About 20 mins after takeoff, still in the climb at approx 8000 ft, the pilot report a major oil leak. Shortly afterwards he reported power loss and that he was turning back. Descending at around 900 fpm he confirmed he had selected a field for his emergency landing. At some time during this sequence of events the propeller separated from the aircraft and the engine seized. The propeller was subsequently located some 5 nm from the crash site.
The pilot attempted a forced landing in a field but was unfortunately not successful.
With an oil obscured windscreen and no prop I am afraid the odds were heavily against him.
The question of the Prop separating from the engine is almost unique in Southern African Accident history and will warrant the closest scrutiny. I am awaiting confirmation that the engine & prop have been accepted by the FAA & NTSB in USA for forensic examination.
There are obviously a huge number of questions arising from this accident but I am afraid this is all that can be released at the moment.
Thank you all for your messages of help and sympathy.
Kind Regards
Keith Downing
Owner
STATEMENT FROM THE OWNER OF THE AIRCRAFT
ZS-KOX was a 1980 C210N (IO 550) which has been owned by myself (Travelafrica cc) for 15 years. Although it was my personal aircraft it has always been licensed and maintained in the Public Category. It was 212 hrs SMOH, 27 hrs since MPI. (with a major South African AMO).
The PIC, Canadian Mike Channer, had been flying the aircraft since its Major Overhaul.
His TT was 650 hrs+. He had been Licensed and Tested by the South African DCA for Commercial Operations.
The Aircraft was on a Temporary Short Term Lease to Airwaves Airlink in Zambia and engaged on a Charter Flight from Livingstone to Lusaka (1+5). The DCA Investigation Team confirm there was no oil leak reported BY anyone TO anyone prior to takeoff. (the source of this very irresponsible report was a Zambian Newspaper which was not able to verify any source).
About 20 mins after takeoff, still in the climb at approx 8000 ft, the pilot report a major oil leak. Shortly afterwards he reported power loss and that he was turning back. Descending at around 900 fpm he confirmed he had selected a field for his emergency landing. At some time during this sequence of events the propeller separated from the aircraft and the engine seized. The propeller was subsequently located some 5 nm from the crash site.
The pilot attempted a forced landing in a field but was unfortunately not successful.
With an oil obscured windscreen and no prop I am afraid the odds were heavily against him.
The question of the Prop separating from the engine is almost unique in Southern African Accident history and will warrant the closest scrutiny. I am awaiting confirmation that the engine & prop have been accepted by the FAA & NTSB in USA for forensic examination.
There are obviously a huge number of questions arising from this accident but I am afraid this is all that can be released at the moment.
Thank you all for your messages of help and sympathy.
Kind Regards
Keith Downing
Owner
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There was a prop separation from a C207 in the early '90s from Klerksdorp to Lanseria. Forced lob into a field with minimal damage, no injuries.
Condolences to family and friends of pilot and pax of the recent accident.
Condolences to family and friends of pilot and pax of the recent accident.
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Keith,
Sorry to hear about this incident, my thought are with you guys. I hope the rest of the season passes quitely.
Pass on my regards to the rest of the team.
JF
Sorry to hear about this incident, my thought are with you guys. I hope the rest of the season passes quitely.
Pass on my regards to the rest of the team.
JF
The C207 referred to was ZS-KEU, used as a jumpship at Carletonville at the time, it happened on a ferry flight, to either Rand or Lanseria (not sure about that detail) for maintenance when this happened...
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Thanks Ppruners.
Please Stand By as I want to open a specific thread on the aerodynamics of this incident in the next 48 hours and your input would be welcome.
FB
Please Stand By as I want to open a specific thread on the aerodynamics of this incident in the next 48 hours and your input would be welcome.
FB
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houch !
Not very fair this last post.
Some guys take it when it suits them,
and reject the cie when problems comes up.
You'd better follow a loyal track, you'll go further and higher.
Condoleances for the families and friends involved in the accident.
No more comments, just sadness.
EF
Some guys take it when it suits them,
and reject the cie when problems comes up.
You'd better follow a loyal track, you'll go further and higher.
Condoleances for the families and friends involved in the accident.
No more comments, just sadness.
EF
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GUSTO
Do you think that operators really want to loose aircraft? A lost aircraft = lost income = loads of inconvenience. What would the point of that be? Do operators cut corners to make a profit? Of course! It is a business! Have you never bought a half-rotting head of lettuce or an apple from the supermarket, or opened a can of coke at a restaurant and realise it's flat? I'm sure that even Qantas flies aircraft with snags, and South African Airways neglects little details in the cockpit. Is it really necessary to bash a company just after they have had such a big disaster? Come on, just a little comraderie would suffice 
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Gusto is taking shots at the wrong target.
This was a South African registered aircraft maintained by one of the larger and certainly reputable South Africa AMO’s.
With regard to the oil leak story this originated solely from a Newspaper Article.
For the benefit of Gusto and others whom have not been part of a DCA Accident Investigation Team, I will take the time to answer part of this post in detail because it does relate directly to what often happens in accidents. You get a mass of information. Some accurate, much often inaccurate and unfortunately a lot of downright scurrilous. Also a very important fact that it often takes some time for facts to emerge, sometimes months after an accident. This ‘oil leak’ provides a classic example of how a persistent rumour can run away with the truth.
The story of the “oil leak before take off” was a very persistent section of this investigation. It originated the day after the accident from the ZIS wire service.
Accordingly it was accorded high priority by the investigation team.
Within 2 days of the accident the DCA interviewed, whether they were on duty or not,
ALL the ATC staff at Livingstone, the refueling crews, the airport security staff, especially those who had apron duty, the NAC ground handling staff and the other pilots who were operating at the time of the accident whether on the ground or air.
They were unable to find any evidence of any leak or find anyone who had seen a leak on the aircraft or anyone who had been told FIRST HAND about a leak on the aircraft. Nevertheless it was still not discarded.
They continued to question, especially Pilots, anyone who had heard the story to try and track down its origin.
Finally 18 days after the accident, on a routine visit to MFUWE to crosscheck some information it was discovered that someone had reported to Mfuwe Tower, as KOX was taxiing out the day before, that there was ‘something leaking from the aircraft’.
This turned out to be fuel venting from the wing tips. A quite normal occurrence after refueling. The ATC Tower Tapes have the full query, discussion with the pilot and answer on record.
So please do not rush to judgment on our various DCA’s in Southern Africa. In most cases they do a very fine job with the very limited resources they have.
FB
This was a South African registered aircraft maintained by one of the larger and certainly reputable South Africa AMO’s.
With regard to the oil leak story this originated solely from a Newspaper Article.
For the benefit of Gusto and others whom have not been part of a DCA Accident Investigation Team, I will take the time to answer part of this post in detail because it does relate directly to what often happens in accidents. You get a mass of information. Some accurate, much often inaccurate and unfortunately a lot of downright scurrilous. Also a very important fact that it often takes some time for facts to emerge, sometimes months after an accident. This ‘oil leak’ provides a classic example of how a persistent rumour can run away with the truth.
The story of the “oil leak before take off” was a very persistent section of this investigation. It originated the day after the accident from the ZIS wire service.
Accordingly it was accorded high priority by the investigation team.
Within 2 days of the accident the DCA interviewed, whether they were on duty or not,
ALL the ATC staff at Livingstone, the refueling crews, the airport security staff, especially those who had apron duty, the NAC ground handling staff and the other pilots who were operating at the time of the accident whether on the ground or air.
They were unable to find any evidence of any leak or find anyone who had seen a leak on the aircraft or anyone who had been told FIRST HAND about a leak on the aircraft. Nevertheless it was still not discarded.
They continued to question, especially Pilots, anyone who had heard the story to try and track down its origin.
Finally 18 days after the accident, on a routine visit to MFUWE to crosscheck some information it was discovered that someone had reported to Mfuwe Tower, as KOX was taxiing out the day before, that there was ‘something leaking from the aircraft’.
This turned out to be fuel venting from the wing tips. A quite normal occurrence after refueling. The ATC Tower Tapes have the full query, discussion with the pilot and answer on record.
So please do not rush to judgment on our various DCA’s in Southern Africa. In most cases they do a very fine job with the very limited resources they have.
FB
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Flying Bean
Props departing aircraft is not uncommon ther ewas an incident in the UK not so long ago when a Pa31 lost a prop. This caused violent rolls and made the aircraft almost unflyable. The PF was an ex military chap with a lot of experiance and he was lucky and skillfull enough to get the aircraft under sufficient control to carry out a forced landing.
Having cut my teeth on C210's in Africa I would think that, with 6 pax and enough fuel, the aircraft would have been almost impossible to control due to the very sudden shift of the CofG when the prop departed the aircraft. This effect would have been compounded if the pilot was reducing speed and preparing for a forced landing at the time.
I doubt wether any pilot would have been able to regain control in the time/altitude available to him in this case.
My sincere condolances to all concerned.
ps I may be able to get hold of a copy of the Pa31 incident if it helps your enquiries.
Props departing aircraft is not uncommon ther ewas an incident in the UK not so long ago when a Pa31 lost a prop. This caused violent rolls and made the aircraft almost unflyable. The PF was an ex military chap with a lot of experiance and he was lucky and skillfull enough to get the aircraft under sufficient control to carry out a forced landing.
Having cut my teeth on C210's in Africa I would think that, with 6 pax and enough fuel, the aircraft would have been almost impossible to control due to the very sudden shift of the CofG when the prop departed the aircraft. This effect would have been compounded if the pilot was reducing speed and preparing for a forced landing at the time.
I doubt wether any pilot would have been able to regain control in the time/altitude available to him in this case.
My sincere condolances to all concerned.
ps I may be able to get hold of a copy of the Pa31 incident if it helps your enquiries.
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I had thought about that too. If the prop departs for what ever reason, the CofG would definately move aft, but by how much, I don't know. This would obviously be calculated on the basis of the weight of the prop and the exact moment. This would then affect the stalling speed, elevator authority for recovery and then the glide.
I look forward to reading more from Flying Bean.
I look forward to reading more from Flying Bean.
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Go To Propless C210
Thanks Guys
I have opened a new thread to discuss the aerodynamics.
Please give us your thoughts and maybe be of help to other flyers.
The Propless C210
FB
I have opened a new thread to discuss the aerodynamics.
Please give us your thoughts and maybe be of help to other flyers.
The Propless C210
FB