End of days for CPL's flying left seat over 5700 kgs
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: In and out of cloud
Age: 43
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
fly1981
You are probably not an instructor. Do you really think "bombing around the circuit" is all that instructors do? Try flying 3 to 4 flights a day, 2 hours per sortie with at least 3 approaches in each sortie, simulating every emergency there is in a light twin and that down to close to minima's a few times a week. When last did you do a SE approach in a twin at night down to 200' in IMC?
You have to be on top of everything the whole time to try and teach and correct nervous students mistakes. You don't have the luxury of a co-pilot. Your procedures will never be as good as during the time you are an instructor.
Instructors work just as hard to reach that 1500 hr mark, and I have found the standard of flying and decision making higher in many ex-instructors than in those who did not instruct.
Anyway, I'll leave it at that.
Safe flying
You are probably not an instructor. Do you really think "bombing around the circuit" is all that instructors do? Try flying 3 to 4 flights a day, 2 hours per sortie with at least 3 approaches in each sortie, simulating every emergency there is in a light twin and that down to close to minima's a few times a week. When last did you do a SE approach in a twin at night down to 200' in IMC?
You have to be on top of everything the whole time to try and teach and correct nervous students mistakes. You don't have the luxury of a co-pilot. Your procedures will never be as good as during the time you are an instructor.
Instructors work just as hard to reach that 1500 hr mark, and I have found the standard of flying and decision making higher in many ex-instructors than in those who did not instruct.
Anyway, I'll leave it at that.
Safe flying
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: All over
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The 1900 co pilot time can be counted if it is on the D. Also, the company you are working for must write a letter to the SACAA stating that the aircraft is operated in a multi crew enviroment, then they will accept it. If the co- jo isnt active in the decisions being made on the aircraft he isnt flying for the right company. Seems like I have upset 1 or 2 people, that wasnt the intention. Flying in the sticks in a C210 did not come into the discussion at all, Unfortunately I have never had the pleasure. And no, I am not an instructor, but as I said, in the begining of my contract career, I flew with more than a couple of captains that were fast tracked towards command purely because they had an ATP that was achieved in the circuit. Then the guy sitting right becomes the instructor, regardless of whether or not he has an instructors rating.
Last edited by fly1981; 25th Nov 2007 at 09:51.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Africa
Age: 44
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fast tracked to command because he had an ATP???? Thats like saying he got fast tracked to a flying job because he got a com. If somone gets off their arse and does the ATP and as a result gets a P1 position, then they deserve it!
I have flown with great and crap captains and co pilots, all from different walks of life and all got to where they were through building up HRS in one form or another. Some pilots are good, others are not, being a 210 driver or and instructor has nothing to do with it. It is how much effort the individual put into their flying that shows.
Fly safe
Dog
I have flown with great and crap captains and co pilots, all from different walks of life and all got to where they were through building up HRS in one form or another. Some pilots are good, others are not, being a 210 driver or and instructor has nothing to do with it. It is how much effort the individual put into their flying that shows.
Fly safe
Dog
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: #37 for Start
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Then the guy sitting right becomes the instructor, regardless of whether or not he has an instructors rating.
At such a time the New P1 (on Type) could have less than 75hrs on the machine. Although it takes time for any individual to settle and the odd "correction or two" is inevitable, never have I regarded myself as "becoming" the Instructor.
One day when you possibly qualify as an Instructor and bat around the "Circuit" in a US$ 2 Million Twin Turbine trying to get a 200hr CPL rated on type
, then suddenly you will realise what Instruction is really about.Having performed a number of different flying disciplines in my short career, I guarantee you that to this day Instruction is one of the hardest, least respected and most demanding...
It is how much effort the individual put into their flying that shows..
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pretoria
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Long time coming...
Great news....closing this loop hole is something that has been a long time coming. It will put comm pilots flying large aircraft where they belong...in the right hand seat.
South African aviation and the CAA can count themselves fortunate that there has not been a serious accident involving a Comm rated P1 in the LHS of a 1900 or similar. I believe the laywers for the insurance would have had a field day.
Show me any of the operators that have taken this gap (a/c certificated for single pilot ops i.a.w. Part 23) and either removed or disabled the other 10 seats...yeah right.
If you try and do a JAA validation (valid for 12 months only - not renewable) the hours on aircraft certificated for operation by one crew only such as the 1900, 200, 228, 110 and other that are operated by SA operators with two crew (MCC specified in Ops Manuals) DO NOT count towards the MCC requirement.
I believe that the CAA has hit the nail on the head with the FAA and JAA Part 25 and 500 hours MCC requirements for ATP as it lends some measure of credibility to the SA ATP.
Fox in the hen house???
South African aviation and the CAA can count themselves fortunate that there has not been a serious accident involving a Comm rated P1 in the LHS of a 1900 or similar. I believe the laywers for the insurance would have had a field day.
Show me any of the operators that have taken this gap (a/c certificated for single pilot ops i.a.w. Part 23) and either removed or disabled the other 10 seats...yeah right.
If you try and do a JAA validation (valid for 12 months only - not renewable) the hours on aircraft certificated for operation by one crew only such as the 1900, 200, 228, 110 and other that are operated by SA operators with two crew (MCC specified in Ops Manuals) DO NOT count towards the MCC requirement.
I believe that the CAA has hit the nail on the head with the FAA and JAA Part 25 and 500 hours MCC requirements for ATP as it lends some measure of credibility to the SA ATP.
Fox in the hen house???
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Turning outbound
Age: 44
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys have drifted far away from the topic and turned into an instructors vs non-instructors.I'd certainly understand that a certain flying experienced on a complex machine need to be done before an ATP be issued,instructors hours are highly valuable and very good to have most of the case it's an added advantage as you get to learn a lot on various things such as:decisions making,fuel management,psychology,weather etc... but in order to obtain an ATPL one need more than that as its name implies some very highly skills must be demonstrated like having flown turbines or jet powered at high altitude,having done actuals IFR approaches not simulated etc...However my concerns lies with those especially the foreign pilots who trained here and wrote their ATP here.A friend of mine from north africa has its ATP frozen and flies 737-800 in his country by the time he gets the hours to have it defrozen how would he do?since he can't do it on a light twin he won't go as far as rent a turboprop plane or book a slot on any SAA 737-800 simulators to have his checkride.I've got a friend currently flying B 767-300 in africa who recently came back from doing his ATP checkride in America on a piper Seminole.Why can't it be done here.Happy landings to all
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Jo'burg
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This whole 1900D thing pisses me off a bit. The thing is over 5700kg, yet is certified for single crew. Most of the 1900's I've flown don't have autopilot and I havn't heard of anyone operating them single crew. A Let 410/420 is lighter and not even pressurized but the hours are worth more than a 1900. Why in the world did Beechacraft certify the thing for single-crew ops in the first place?
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: FASH
Age: 59
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You could speculate that the 1900 was an expansion on the 200 which allowed Beechcraft (at the time) to add on to the existing Type Certificate Data Sheet (A24CE if you would like to look it up), and kept it in the FAR Part 23 certification requirements. Albeit in the "Commuter" category. Presumably much less costly to do than apply for a new TC in FAR 25. The 1900 is an "airliner" without meeting all the requirements for FAR 25, Transport category, over 5700kg.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Natal
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just wished to make a small addition to the post made by Request FL 510.
He stated:-
"If you try and do a JAA validation (valid for 12 months only - not renewable) the hours on aircraft certificated for operation by one crew only such as the 1900, 200, 228, 110 and other that are operated by SA operators with two crew (MCC specified in Ops Manuals) DO NOT count towards the MCC requirement."
For general information, I have this year obtained a UK JAA MCC exemption certificate based on over 500 hour of 2P flying in a 1900D. I had to obtain supporting letter from my employer NAC stating the a/c was operated as multi-crew. I was unable to obtain ANY assistance from the SA CAA in this process. The JAA regs required the SA CAA to provide a Part 121 Ops Manual confirmation letter but despite my many written requests i didn't even get so much as a dicky bird from them. But the UK CAA granted the Certificate anyway when I showed them copies of my many unsuccessful letters to the SA CAA..!! What a shower..
He stated:-
"If you try and do a JAA validation (valid for 12 months only - not renewable) the hours on aircraft certificated for operation by one crew only such as the 1900, 200, 228, 110 and other that are operated by SA operators with two crew (MCC specified in Ops Manuals) DO NOT count towards the MCC requirement."
For general information, I have this year obtained a UK JAA MCC exemption certificate based on over 500 hour of 2P flying in a 1900D. I had to obtain supporting letter from my employer NAC stating the a/c was operated as multi-crew. I was unable to obtain ANY assistance from the SA CAA in this process. The JAA regs required the SA CAA to provide a Part 121 Ops Manual confirmation letter but despite my many written requests i didn't even get so much as a dicky bird from them. But the UK CAA granted the Certificate anyway when I showed them copies of my many unsuccessful letters to the SA CAA..!! What a shower..
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: mostly in the sky
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm really confused.
Not having kept up with all the goings on about the 200 1900 saga, I was wondering why the King Air 350 would not have formed part of this whole argument. After all, it fits nicely between a 200 and 1900.
Can anybody give me a short heads up on this, or point me in the right direction?
Confused new turboprop pilot.
Can anybody give me a short heads up on this, or point me in the right direction?
Confused new turboprop pilot.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Still looking for a place
Posts: 351
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Loophole now closed.
The loophole to fly the 1900 on a com has now been closed.
Priviliges of a comm pilot is about to be amended on the acting as PIC on an A/C certified as single crew, to read, below 5700kg.
This now closes the loophole on B1900 and any other A/C weighing in at over 5700kg and certified as single crew.
There will be a time frame in which the pilots of the 1900's will be given to try to get their ATP's and after that time frame expires, should he/she not have the ATP, he/she then slides back into the right seat.
Fairs fair to the guys/galls that got off their butt's and studied further.
Oh and just to pee some people off, try becoming an instructor now...eisch, that all I can say.
Goffel by the office.
Priviliges of a comm pilot is about to be amended on the acting as PIC on an A/C certified as single crew, to read, below 5700kg.
This now closes the loophole on B1900 and any other A/C weighing in at over 5700kg and certified as single crew.
There will be a time frame in which the pilots of the 1900's will be given to try to get their ATP's and after that time frame expires, should he/she not have the ATP, he/she then slides back into the right seat.
Fairs fair to the guys/galls that got off their butt's and studied further.
Oh and just to pee some people off, try becoming an instructor now...eisch, that all I can say.
Goffel by the office.
Feasant Plucker
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: In the lair of the Penguin......
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The way we were..........
Hey, we're just going back to the days of yore, when anything above 12500lbs. (5700kg) required a Senior Comm. licence. For the young guns, that was obtainable at 750hrs, having passed the ATP subjects.
Bad luck now, you have to have 1500hrs ...
Eish! Seems so long ago..........
Bad luck now, you have to have 1500hrs ...
Eish! Seems so long ago..........
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fl510 and Lt...
I also brought my hours from flying a 1900 and 200 for a SA operator to the Uk when I did the JAA licence, and the hours were counted towards the Multi Pilot hours required for the ATPL and the MCC.
Lt, for my MCC I just downloaded the page from the SA CAA Part 121 where it states 2 pilots are required and before I left the company I worked for I took photocopies of their AOC which had all the registrations of the planes which were operated under Part 121.
I also had a letter on their headed paper stating that the contracts for the UN and oil companies required 2 pilots for their insurance too.
FL510, if you read LASORS, UK CAA regs, it says hours flown on a Part 23 or 25 type can be used towards the mutli pilots hours required for the granting of an ATPL.
(b1900d is certified under Part 23)
I also brought my hours from flying a 1900 and 200 for a SA operator to the Uk when I did the JAA licence, and the hours were counted towards the Multi Pilot hours required for the ATPL and the MCC.
Lt, for my MCC I just downloaded the page from the SA CAA Part 121 where it states 2 pilots are required and before I left the company I worked for I took photocopies of their AOC which had all the registrations of the planes which were operated under Part 121.
I also had a letter on their headed paper stating that the contracts for the UN and oil companies required 2 pilots for their insurance too.
FL510, if you read LASORS, UK CAA regs, it says hours flown on a Part 23 or 25 type can be used towards the mutli pilots hours required for the granting of an ATPL.
(b1900d is certified under Part 23)
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: South Africa
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Goffel,
Having perused Part 61 Subpart 5, which is up for comment on the CAA website, I still do not see the 5700kg restriction. This, to my understanding at least, means that effectively nothing changes. The 1900 is still certified for single crew ops which means that the priviledges of the CPL still allows for flying as PIC although 121 requires 2 crew, but only states that they must hold valid licenses and ratings (No mention of type of license ie ATP).
Having perused Part 61 Subpart 5, which is up for comment on the CAA website, I still do not see the 5700kg restriction. This, to my understanding at least, means that effectively nothing changes. The 1900 is still certified for single crew ops which means that the priviledges of the CPL still allows for flying as PIC although 121 requires 2 crew, but only states that they must hold valid licenses and ratings (No mention of type of license ie ATP).
