South African Black Pilots
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RSA....
Rumline, have to agree with you, RSA would have been no better than... But you left out Nigeria!
Chile 777,
There were a few black pilots in RSA pre 1994. They mainly flew for the "homeland" airlines. Transkei etc. ( Of course, even then, as In George Orwell's Animal Farm, some were more equal than others, and were a protected species. Try rostering a whole airline around one pilot who wont fly on Saturday because he is Seventh Day Adventist. Could not fire him because he was..... You guesssed it, a black man. True story, that is the way it was. even then! )
What happened to these guys, I have no idea. They were good guys to work with anyway. Maybe they will pop up here and let us know what they are up to?
Hope that helps answer the question anyway.
Chile 777,
There were a few black pilots in RSA pre 1994. They mainly flew for the "homeland" airlines. Transkei etc. ( Of course, even then, as In George Orwell's Animal Farm, some were more equal than others, and were a protected species. Try rostering a whole airline around one pilot who wont fly on Saturday because he is Seventh Day Adventist. Could not fire him because he was..... You guesssed it, a black man. True story, that is the way it was. even then! )
What happened to these guys, I have no idea. They were good guys to work with anyway. Maybe they will pop up here and let us know what they are up to?
Hope that helps answer the question anyway.
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[QUOTE]Third: From my perspective the black empowerment/positive affirmation never should have been applied to the labor sector. If you want to have a growing economy/country only the most skilled people must be hired. Do not matter if they are white, black, woman, gay, lesbian ...Nevertheless the positive actions can be applied in other areas such as education, health, loans, etc. [QUOTE]
Well said Chileno 777! If a guy can do the job, let him have it, regardless of gender or race!
One thing that has always been very intersting to me in this world is that there can be organizations like the organization of black airline pilots in the states. Can you imagine the absolute anarchy that would follow if someone founded the organization of white airline pilots? Just a thought?
Well said Chileno 777! If a guy can do the job, let him have it, regardless of gender or race!
One thing that has always been very intersting to me in this world is that there can be organizations like the organization of black airline pilots in the states. Can you imagine the absolute anarchy that would follow if someone founded the organization of white airline pilots? Just a thought?
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The point has been made: There's nothing inherently wrong with the original posters question. (Although I think the answer is very short.)
It's just that any thread that brings up race runs the risk of becoming incredibly polarised in a short space of time, and many people who've been around here for a while have little patience for seeing the same back-and-forth comments. I can pretty much guarantee that there are NO white pilots here who have a problem with the person sitting next to them as long as they made it there on a reasonable degree of merit, and don't jump up and down shouting 'racist!' when somebody so much as breathes in their direction. AA is a reality, we all know that, but don't make it into the next version of apartheid. Otherwise in 50 years time, we'll be asking the same question as the original poster, but just w.r.t. white pilots.
The lack of answers to the original question just shows that most of the pilots posting here were too young to have been involved in aviation during that time. Importantly, that also means they had nothing to do with apartheid either, despite now being penalised for it. Hence the 'vigorous' answers.
I'm sure we can all just remain calm, get the job done, and concentrate on doing our little part for the way forward.
It's just that any thread that brings up race runs the risk of becoming incredibly polarised in a short space of time, and many people who've been around here for a while have little patience for seeing the same back-and-forth comments. I can pretty much guarantee that there are NO white pilots here who have a problem with the person sitting next to them as long as they made it there on a reasonable degree of merit, and don't jump up and down shouting 'racist!' when somebody so much as breathes in their direction. AA is a reality, we all know that, but don't make it into the next version of apartheid. Otherwise in 50 years time, we'll be asking the same question as the original poster, but just w.r.t. white pilots.
The lack of answers to the original question just shows that most of the pilots posting here were too young to have been involved in aviation during that time. Importantly, that also means they had nothing to do with apartheid either, despite now being penalised for it. Hence the 'vigorous' answers.
I'm sure we can all just remain calm, get the job done, and concentrate on doing our little part for the way forward.
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The fact that SAA has the majority of pilots of "colour" is a simple case of supply and demand...if you can understand that. The less of an available resource, the more one needs to pay...hence more PD pilots will migrate to Airways because of the more attractive salaries.
AA is alive and well in every sphere of business in SA today, like it or not. "White" pilots in SA however, are marginally affected , as, when SAA require 100 pilots only 5 slots can be filled by appropriate AA candidates, so how in the world can a white pilot argue that his spot was taken by affirmative action, when there's 95 spots available to him?? that I find perplexing.
Also, the entire flight operations at SAA is still run by so called white males...whom, are in their current positions of power simply because they can do the job and have the ability to actually comprehend certain policies and principles of transformation (which is a swear word at BA Comair). The colour of their skin has nothing to do with it, only the fact that they are probably the best and most open-minded people in the SA aviation industry to do the required job.
This is why SAA will never close down...as much as certain people would love to see.
I have flown with many pilots of colour at SAA. Not one has a chip on his/her shoulder. Simply going about their day-to-day business like any other pilot here. Many are highly educated/qualified individuals (degrees etc) who deserve their place in the airline. Those who misinterpret the principles of AA simply undermine the quality of these individuals who find themselves in these positions, which is really unfair!
AA is alive and well in every sphere of business in SA today, like it or not. "White" pilots in SA however, are marginally affected , as, when SAA require 100 pilots only 5 slots can be filled by appropriate AA candidates, so how in the world can a white pilot argue that his spot was taken by affirmative action, when there's 95 spots available to him?? that I find perplexing.
Also, the entire flight operations at SAA is still run by so called white males...whom, are in their current positions of power simply because they can do the job and have the ability to actually comprehend certain policies and principles of transformation (which is a swear word at BA Comair). The colour of their skin has nothing to do with it, only the fact that they are probably the best and most open-minded people in the SA aviation industry to do the required job.
This is why SAA will never close down...as much as certain people would love to see.
I have flown with many pilots of colour at SAA. Not one has a chip on his/her shoulder. Simply going about their day-to-day business like any other pilot here. Many are highly educated/qualified individuals (degrees etc) who deserve their place in the airline. Those who misinterpret the principles of AA simply undermine the quality of these individuals who find themselves in these positions, which is really unfair!
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This topic has now gone off track, so I will just help it along.
Affirmative Action is not a new economic uplifting tactic. It has been used by many in the past, most noticeably by the whites during the apartheid era. The SADF, SAR, TELKOM, ESKOM to name a few, were companies whose sole purpose was to uplift the Afrikaner nation. It was a policy that worked exceptionally well for some, but not very well for others. Unfortunately, by it's very nature, AA isolates some for the benefit of others. AA, does have a lifespan, however, it is generally longer than one generation. This does marginalise some during its course, however, if you are wise enough, you can live through it.
To answer the original question again, and perhaps a little more blatantly. There were precious few black pilots during the apartheid era. They had virtually no promotion opportunities, and were definitely not regarded as being equals.
Post apartheid has seen a dramatic increase in the numbers, however, far too few to supply the demand for AA. I would guess, in fact that most of the present black pilots in SA are only doing what they do, thanks to various sponsored routes. This has caused more animosity in the industry, as there are many other pilots out there that have paid for their own training, and battle to get flying jobs.
Well that is relative.
Yes - The majority of black pilots in SA fly for SAA.
No - The number is nowhere near where it should be, due to the simple reason that there are very few black pilots. The number is increasing, but it will take a very long time to see the figures that the government would like.
Thank you, I would like to take you up on that, however, it is my belief that talking will not solve anything, it is in the process of solving itself. Mother time has the answer, but she wont tell for a long while
Affirmative Action is not a new economic uplifting tactic. It has been used by many in the past, most noticeably by the whites during the apartheid era. The SADF, SAR, TELKOM, ESKOM to name a few, were companies whose sole purpose was to uplift the Afrikaner nation. It was a policy that worked exceptionally well for some, but not very well for others. Unfortunately, by it's very nature, AA isolates some for the benefit of others. AA, does have a lifespan, however, it is generally longer than one generation. This does marginalise some during its course, however, if you are wise enough, you can live through it.
To answer the original question again, and perhaps a little more blatantly. There were precious few black pilots during the apartheid era. They had virtually no promotion opportunities, and were definitely not regarded as being equals.
Post apartheid has seen a dramatic increase in the numbers, however, far too few to supply the demand for AA. I would guess, in fact that most of the present black pilots in SA are only doing what they do, thanks to various sponsored routes. This has caused more animosity in the industry, as there are many other pilots out there that have paid for their own training, and battle to get flying jobs.
Are their a good number of black pilots flying in SAA?
Yes - The majority of black pilots in SA fly for SAA.
No - The number is nowhere near where it should be, due to the simple reason that there are very few black pilots. The number is increasing, but it will take a very long time to see the figures that the government would like.
beers on me if ever in lagos and if u have time will fire up the barbecue so we can discuss at lenght.
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OK, I'll take a stab at the original question.
Up to the end of the 1980's, pilots of colour were not eligible to join the South African Air Force (SAAF) or SAA. There were some pilots of colour trained in SAA (either private or for the homelands).
The SAAF and SAA opened up for the previously disadvantaged (PD's) in the beginning of the 90's and Affirmative Action was entrenched in law soon after 1994.
During the years of the ANC struggle, some pilots were trained in East Block countries to form the core of a post apartheid air force in SA. When democracy came in 1994, these guys ended up in positions of power in the armed forces and never really flew.
SAA (as national carrier) went on a drive to employ as many PD's as they could. This drained the country of all pilots of colour. At the same time the cadet program was started to enable PD's to get training and finally join SAA.
Currently, the bigger carriers in SA all try to employ PD's, but SAA, with bigger salaries make it impossible for the other airlines to keep their PD pilots. PD SAAF pilots are poached by SAA as soon as they can and the other airlines have no choice but to make up their EE complement in other areas.
I think the cadet program is up to course 14 or 15, which equates to about 150 cadets. Some of these were white guys and girls. Not all of them continued in the cockpit, so I'd guess about 100 non-white cadets remain in the system. Add to that about another 50 non-white ex-SAAF pilots and a handful of non-white pilots from other backgrounds and you have the total complement in SA civil aviation. Most of these pilots are with SAX and SAA.
The combined pilot complement of SAX and SAA is about 1000 pilots, so the percentage between these 2 airlines is probably around 10% non-white.
Although there are non-white pilots in SA from other countries, they are not eligible for employment at SAA. SAX does not have that barrier and will soon have its first black captain in about 7 years (the previous one left to SAA and then promptly disappeared).
As most will know, you don't train airline captains in a few months. It takes years just to get the right licenses and then even more years to get the right experience. This process is very expensive and not all airlines can afford it.
A further barrier to higher non-white cockpit numbers is the current South African economic arena. Those PD kids who have the abilities and perseverance to become good pilots (it is a crappy job and you have to love it to carry on doing it), can easily make more money by getting a share of the BEE pie outside aviation. On more than one occasion, I have spoken to a young black executive who told me that he almost became a pilot before he realised that he could go further and become richer if he channeled his energies into business.
The word has spread that there is lots of money out there for any intelligent PD person and that flying with its 0300 wake-ups and long periods away from home is not as romantic as everyone thought.
It is also noticeable that there are no PD pilots-to-be paying for their own training and then joining the ranks of contract pilots to build hours. It seems to be the case that if SAA doesn't pay, then flying is not important. I still see lots of white kids pay for their dreams by begging, borrowing and delivering pizzas.
Up to the end of the 1980's, pilots of colour were not eligible to join the South African Air Force (SAAF) or SAA. There were some pilots of colour trained in SAA (either private or for the homelands).
The SAAF and SAA opened up for the previously disadvantaged (PD's) in the beginning of the 90's and Affirmative Action was entrenched in law soon after 1994.
During the years of the ANC struggle, some pilots were trained in East Block countries to form the core of a post apartheid air force in SA. When democracy came in 1994, these guys ended up in positions of power in the armed forces and never really flew.
SAA (as national carrier) went on a drive to employ as many PD's as they could. This drained the country of all pilots of colour. At the same time the cadet program was started to enable PD's to get training and finally join SAA.
Currently, the bigger carriers in SA all try to employ PD's, but SAA, with bigger salaries make it impossible for the other airlines to keep their PD pilots. PD SAAF pilots are poached by SAA as soon as they can and the other airlines have no choice but to make up their EE complement in other areas.
I think the cadet program is up to course 14 or 15, which equates to about 150 cadets. Some of these were white guys and girls. Not all of them continued in the cockpit, so I'd guess about 100 non-white cadets remain in the system. Add to that about another 50 non-white ex-SAAF pilots and a handful of non-white pilots from other backgrounds and you have the total complement in SA civil aviation. Most of these pilots are with SAX and SAA.
The combined pilot complement of SAX and SAA is about 1000 pilots, so the percentage between these 2 airlines is probably around 10% non-white.
Although there are non-white pilots in SA from other countries, they are not eligible for employment at SAA. SAX does not have that barrier and will soon have its first black captain in about 7 years (the previous one left to SAA and then promptly disappeared).
As most will know, you don't train airline captains in a few months. It takes years just to get the right licenses and then even more years to get the right experience. This process is very expensive and not all airlines can afford it.
A further barrier to higher non-white cockpit numbers is the current South African economic arena. Those PD kids who have the abilities and perseverance to become good pilots (it is a crappy job and you have to love it to carry on doing it), can easily make more money by getting a share of the BEE pie outside aviation. On more than one occasion, I have spoken to a young black executive who told me that he almost became a pilot before he realised that he could go further and become richer if he channeled his energies into business.
The word has spread that there is lots of money out there for any intelligent PD person and that flying with its 0300 wake-ups and long periods away from home is not as romantic as everyone thought.
It is also noticeable that there are no PD pilots-to-be paying for their own training and then joining the ranks of contract pilots to build hours. It seems to be the case that if SAA doesn't pay, then flying is not important. I still see lots of white kids pay for their dreams by begging, borrowing and delivering pizzas.
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It is also noticeable that there are no PD pilots-to-be paying for their own training and then joining the ranks of contract pilots to build hours. It seems to be the case that if SAA doesn't pay, then flying is not important. I still see lots of white kids pay for their dreams by begging, borrowing and delivering pizzas.
You're making a generalization based on your unfortunate experiences with a minority of misinformed, initiative+passion-lacking individuals (found in all races).IR-Pirate: couldn't have said it better!
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Hear Hear. Nugpot – that’s a fair assessment of Aviation in SA both past and present.
Government and the SAA must be ready invest heavily in the PD to address the in balance instead of wasting precious airline’s funds carting around the top man in a helicopter because he can’t handle, that lovely slow morning commute to work every day and other wasteful ventures being dreamt up.
The presently advantaged (PA’s) will just have to accept, that this situation will be in the best interest of SA and SAA for now. It’s unfortunate that hard working white folks trying to qualify for those jobs too will also have to put up with it and many other policies.
If it take’s running twice the number of cadet courses to meet the AA requirements so be it. I have no idea what the situation is in the training schools in SA these days, at least I know there are spaces available, as some foreign student from West Africa are training there at the mo.
Government and the SAA must be ready invest heavily in the PD to address the in balance instead of wasting precious airline’s funds carting around the top man in a helicopter because he can’t handle, that lovely slow morning commute to work every day and other wasteful ventures being dreamt up.
The presently advantaged (PA’s) will just have to accept, that this situation will be in the best interest of SA and SAA for now. It’s unfortunate that hard working white folks trying to qualify for those jobs too will also have to put up with it and many other policies.
If it take’s running twice the number of cadet courses to meet the AA requirements so be it. I have no idea what the situation is in the training schools in SA these days, at least I know there are spaces available, as some foreign student from West Africa are training there at the mo.
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I have no idea what the situation is in the training schools in SA these days, at least I know there are spaces available, as some foreign student from West Africa are training there at the mo.
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I was not going to get involved in this brawl but as emotions are clearly getting in the way of clear thinking here goes.
Firstly, very well summarised Nugpot I have been in aviation for more than twenty years. I have never met an SA born black pilot or student pilot who paid his own way. Please note, I'm not saying there are none, I'm simply saying I have not met any. I have met Congolese, Nigerian, Kenyan and Malawi nationals. I count a Nigerian who trained at 43 Air School (sponsored by a Nigerian church, no less) as a very dear friend and would happily have him in the left seat at any time. But nope, still have not met any South Africans!
Secondly, my response to saywhat. Yes, there was AA applied by the National party government after 1948. Yes, they did try to uplift the Afrikaner. And guess what? They were right to do so too. This due to the policy of the previous SAP government of promoting only english speaking South Africans and top jobs in state departments being reserved for english speakers only. Now, measured with the same yardstick, its time to uplift the black population of SA too. No quarrel with this at all. But why force the issue when the interest isnt there? Why penalise willing whites to force in unwilling blacks? How does this uplift anyone? If I meet an SA born black man or women who can convince me they have the same burning ambition to fly. The same all-consuming desire that I had and still have, incidentally, then I will sponsor that person myself! I will spend time coaching him/her and assisting with studies, etc. This because, in my book, aviation must be the winner and not half baked racist motivated, get-even-with-whitey, intervention to score political brownie points. Before you point fingers at past injustices first ask yourself What have I/could I do to improve the situation? One suggestion is to make the skies safer by passing on your own hard-earned knowledge.
In closing, any one else notice how SA based ppruners(is that right?) dont seem to interfere in other countries problems/concerns, etc. But post something about SA and everyone and his mate from all over the world, judging by this one topic, wants to tell us off or f
with us? Maybe the time has come to get the gloves off and do the same?
Firstly, very well summarised Nugpot
I have been in aviation for more than twenty years. I have never met an SA born black pilot or student pilot who paid his own way. Please note, I'm not saying there are none, I'm simply saying I have not met any. I have met Congolese, Nigerian, Kenyan and Malawi nationals. I count a Nigerian who trained at 43 Air School (sponsored by a Nigerian church, no less) as a very dear friend and would happily have him in the left seat at any time. But nope, still have not met any South Africans! Secondly, my response to saywhat. Yes, there was AA applied by the National party government after 1948. Yes, they did try to uplift the Afrikaner. And guess what? They were right to do so too. This due to the policy of the previous SAP government of promoting only english speaking South Africans and top jobs in state departments being reserved for english speakers only. Now, measured with the same yardstick, its time to uplift the black population of SA too. No quarrel with this at all. But why force the issue when the interest isnt there? Why penalise willing whites to force in unwilling blacks? How does this uplift anyone? If I meet an SA born black man or women who can convince me they have the same burning ambition to fly. The same all-consuming desire that I had and still have, incidentally, then I will sponsor that person myself! I will spend time coaching him/her and assisting with studies, etc. This because, in my book, aviation must be the winner and not half baked racist motivated, get-even-with-whitey, intervention to score political brownie points. Before you point fingers at past injustices first ask yourself What have I/could I do to improve the situation? One suggestion is to make the skies safer by passing on your own hard-earned knowledge.
In closing, any one else notice how SA based ppruners(is that right?) dont seem to interfere in other countries problems/concerns, etc. But post something about SA and everyone and his mate from all over the world, judging by this one topic, wants to tell us off or f
with us? Maybe the time has come to get the gloves off and do the same?
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Jamex, Nugpot...
I personally know of at least three PD pilots (SA citizens, born and bred), at SAA who've paid for their own training, flew contracts, instructed, etc. to gain the required experience. If you want their conact details to verify this, PM me, and I will gladly forward you the information.
Otherwise, Nugpot, your assessment of the situation is nevertheless quite accurate. However, making reckless generalisations is not objective and unfair to those involved.
Jamex...you obviously don't know every pilot in the SA aviation industry.
I personally know of at least three PD pilots (SA citizens, born and bred), at SAA who've paid for their own training, flew contracts, instructed, etc. to gain the required experience. If you want their conact details to verify this, PM me, and I will gladly forward you the information.
Otherwise, Nugpot, your assessment of the situation is nevertheless quite accurate. However, making reckless generalisations is not objective and unfair to those involved.
Jamex...you obviously don't know every pilot in the SA aviation industry.
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I personally know of at least three PD pilots (SA citizens, born and bred)
1. Those PD's Jetnut, are they black or brown according to our country's wonderful colour coded history? This thread is about black pilots, although we all talk about PD's to save some sensitive egos.
2. Even if there are 10 black pilots training in SA with their own money, please explain to me why that is significant. The AA/EE brigade wants the airlines to be representative. That means that 75% of all pilots should be black. Not Coloured/Indian/Pink or Blue, but black! To get that right and with all the jobs just waiting for them, don't you think that there would at least be hundreds, if not thousands of the 30 million black people in this country queueing up for flying lessons.
And please don't use poverty as an excuse. I came from a very poor home. It took me 17 years from my first flight to the right seat of an airline.
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Nugpot
It is also noticeable that there are no PD pilots-to-be paying for their own training and then joining the ranks of contract pilots to build hours.
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Those PD kids who have the abilities and perseverance to become good pilots (it is a crappy job and you have to love it to carry on doing it), can easily make more money by getting a share of the BEE pie outside aviation.
Quote - any one else notice how SA based ppruners(is that right?) dont seem to interfere in other countries problems/concerns, etc. But post something about SA and everyone and his mate from all over the world, judging by this one topic, wants to tell us off or f with us? Maybe the time has come to get the gloves off and do the same
Jamex, unforetunatly the stuff ups in SA (and Africa) get visited upon the rest of the world - How many whites left in SA now ?
Next it will be an increase in boat refugees.
with us? Maybe the time has come to get the gloves off and do the sameJamex, unforetunatly the stuff ups in SA (and Africa) get visited upon the rest of the world - How many whites left in SA now ?
Next it will be an increase in boat refugees.
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The stupid color coding system dreamed up by the sub human morons responsible for the system in place during aparthied means nothing! There's no such thing as colored or black. As far as I'm concerned there is no distinction between the two. A slave's a slave's wether you work in the house or the field its the same.That whole skin color thing was dreamed up by some white guy where he was the ideal and each variation further from him was a little down the chain. What a proud heritage!
Are you guys who chest thump about having to work your way up are blind to the fact that cadet programs is how many cockpits around the world are filled? If you aren't I guess we are just complaining about how unfair it is that you maybe excluded? Were you complaining 13 years ago under the previous system about how your brothers and sisters were being treated?
Flying Binghi do you really wanna take the gloves off and have a arguement about the morals and virtues of aparthied?
Are you guys who chest thump about having to work your way up are blind to the fact that cadet programs is how many cockpits around the world are filled? If you aren't I guess we are just complaining about how unfair it is that you maybe excluded? Were you complaining 13 years ago under the previous system about how your brothers and sisters were being treated?
Flying Binghi do you really wanna take the gloves off and have a arguement about the morals and virtues of aparthied?
bman 0429,
I think Rwanda in 1994 showed the world that no race of people have a monopoly on sub-human acts.
I have no interest in discusing aparthied as such.
What I am interested in, is why there appears to be a problem with first getting, then retaining black pilots for SAA. (please note all my knoledge of African aviation comes from this forum) According to BALEWA, there seems to be no problems in Nigeria.
My question re black ultralight pilots is my 'Reductio ad adsurdum' way of seeking more background information - The problem may relate to another country I am thinking of.
I think Rwanda in 1994 showed the world that no race of people have a monopoly on sub-human acts.
I have no interest in discusing aparthied as such.
What I am interested in, is why there appears to be a problem with first getting, then retaining black pilots for SAA. (please note all my knoledge of African aviation comes from this forum) According to BALEWA, there seems to be no problems in Nigeria.
My question re black ultralight pilots is my 'Reductio ad adsurdum' way of seeking more background information - The problem may relate to another country I am thinking of.