(The Department of Labour says) Kulula says Blacks are Non-swimmers
If you can't get in on merit, changing the standards to facilitate the selection of unsuitable candidates is not going to do the long term future of the company any good at all.
BTW If an unsuitable person messes up it is the employers fault for purpously employing someone incompetent in order to discredit other members of the same group.
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This in Legal Brief today.
"Comair asks for more time to prepare papers
Comair is seeking an extension to file papers to the Labour Court over its alleged breach of employment equity laws to allow its lawyers more time to prepare, Comair CEO Eric Venter said yesterday, according to a report on the FIN24 site. ‘Because this is the first time the Department of Labour has done an employment equity review and court case, our senior counsel recommended that we spend more time reviewing the documents,’ said Venter. It also submitted a letter of demand to the Minister of Labour asking that the department stop issuing what it believes are inaccurate and defamatory statements. The matter has not yet been set down to be heard in the Labour Court, said Venter, adding that if it supplied all the information required in its answering papers, the matter may not get that far."
Good luck to Comair on this one. They have indicated in other media that they intend opposing this matter all the way. I am still debating the wisdom of opposing at all. It may be better to come to some sort of amicable agreement with the Dept of Labour and settle the matter out of court. Interesting times could lie ahead should Comair win the case as a precedent will then have been set opening a can of worms for the ANC government. There are other companies on the Labour Dept "name and shame" list who are waiting to see how this pans out. If in Comairs favour there is likely to be a rush to go the same way. This matter is then likely to go all the way to the constitutional court as the highest court in the land. If Comair should win that round too, then my bet is the ANC gov will change the constitution. The implications of this is that AA will be enshrined in the constitution forever. In the unlikely event any other party wins an election in the future they will have to win by a 2/3rd majority before they will be able to address the AA matter at all.
"Comair asks for more time to prepare papers
Comair is seeking an extension to file papers to the Labour Court over its alleged breach of employment equity laws to allow its lawyers more time to prepare, Comair CEO Eric Venter said yesterday, according to a report on the FIN24 site. ‘Because this is the first time the Department of Labour has done an employment equity review and court case, our senior counsel recommended that we spend more time reviewing the documents,’ said Venter. It also submitted a letter of demand to the Minister of Labour asking that the department stop issuing what it believes are inaccurate and defamatory statements. The matter has not yet been set down to be heard in the Labour Court, said Venter, adding that if it supplied all the information required in its answering papers, the matter may not get that far."
Good luck to Comair on this one. They have indicated in other media that they intend opposing this matter all the way. I am still debating the wisdom of opposing at all. It may be better to come to some sort of amicable agreement with the Dept of Labour and settle the matter out of court. Interesting times could lie ahead should Comair win the case as a precedent will then have been set opening a can of worms for the ANC government. There are other companies on the Labour Dept "name and shame" list who are waiting to see how this pans out. If in Comairs favour there is likely to be a rush to go the same way. This matter is then likely to go all the way to the constitutional court as the highest court in the land. If Comair should win that round too, then my bet is the ANC gov will change the constitution. The implications of this is that AA will be enshrined in the constitution forever. In the unlikely event any other party wins an election in the future they will have to win by a 2/3rd majority before they will be able to address the AA matter at all.
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Now I have read everything!
I remember a WDD (Wet Dinghy Drill) with some non-swimming Nigerian indigenes. Well, fitted with a life vest they were required to go in the deep end feet-first and then pull the toggles, when they would come bobbing up again. Sorted, sort of. I don't know exactly how much use they would have been to the pax but at least I wouldn't have been kept busy trying to keep my crew from drowning.
We did give very basic swimming lessons to the cabin attendants, so that they could at least dog-paddle. Isn't that good enough to qualify as "swimming," or is it so that people from South Africa are uniquely terrestrial and non-aquatic?
We did give very basic swimming lessons to the cabin attendants, so that they could at least dog-paddle. Isn't that good enough to qualify as "swimming," or is it so that people from South Africa are uniquely terrestrial and non-aquatic?
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Me thinks this is an airline not prepared to sacrifice safety standards in order to satisfy politics and in some cases greed.
I would rather fly Kulula knowing there outlook on safety and law then for example engine jettisoning Nationwide.
I would rather fly Kulula knowing there outlook on safety and law then for example engine jettisoning Nationwide.
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Aircrew Swimming
Let's keep in mind that no one has suggested that crew need be 'Olympic qualifier' standard swimmers. However, the fare paying public, as well as your fellow crew members, have a right to expect that you will at least be in a reasonable position to firstly, help yourself and secondly, be able to help others should you survive the initial ditching.
It's also up to the individual to ensure, when applying for a job that you want, that you can meet the minimum qualifications and standards required. This holds true for all licensed aviation personnel be they flight deck, cabin or maintainence!
No plots against anyone, merely the application of internationally acceptable norms and standards in order to ensure the highest possible level of safety for all.
It's also up to the individual to ensure, when applying for a job that you want, that you can meet the minimum qualifications and standards required. This holds true for all licensed aviation personnel be they flight deck, cabin or maintainence!
No plots against anyone, merely the application of internationally acceptable norms and standards in order to ensure the highest possible level of safety for all.
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Olympic qualified swimmer
I remember looking at the regs a few weeks ago for my wife who has aspirations of becoming an airborne waitress on our machine, and I think the regs required the cabin crew to be able to tow a passenger 10 meters. Most of the pilots I know would be on the point of an MI if they had to swim 10 meters in clothes towing a clothed pax!
My point being, not only do they have to swim, but they have to take care of the pax as well.
Hmmmm - so we have somebody not used to swimming, just survived a ditching IN THE OCEAN - where there are waves, now expected to make their own way to a raft and tow a pax?....... makes one think...................
If anybody who has done ditching training thinks a dunking in a pool approximates this they are insane. I happened to be on the beach when the Ethiopian 767 ditched in the Comores and was on the wreck trying to extricate people from warm calm waters....... almost ideal conditions, and that didn't work too well............
My point being, not only do they have to swim, but they have to take care of the pax as well.
Hmmmm - so we have somebody not used to swimming, just survived a ditching IN THE OCEAN - where there are waves, now expected to make their own way to a raft and tow a pax?....... makes one think...................
If anybody who has done ditching training thinks a dunking in a pool approximates this they are insane. I happened to be on the beach when the Ethiopian 767 ditched in the Comores and was on the wreck trying to extricate people from warm calm waters....... almost ideal conditions, and that didn't work too well............
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Fact of the matter Comair has broken the law, It's called the Employment Equity Act. It's being broken by every Aviation Company in South Africa mostly in the employment of Technical Staff, Cabin Crew and Pilots. Thumbs Up to the department of Labour for FINALLY DOING SOME THING ABOUT IT. The fine should be in the hundreds of millions enough to drive these racists pigs out of business.
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The fine should be in the hundreds of millions enough to drive these racists pigs out of business.
It's being broken by every Aviation Company in South Africa mostly in the employment of Technical Staff, Cabin Crew and Pilots.
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Exercise in multi-dimensional stupidity.
Swimming ability is a legitimate part of cabin crew qualifications, for reasons stated above. Olympic ability isn't required, but it would be nice if the cabin crew were an asset instead of a liability in case of need. This statement is not emotionally charged or race-biased (or it shouldn't be).
Wrong way: "Blacks can't swim." Result - uproar, hatred, discontent, lawsuits.
Better way: "Candidates shall be able to demonstrate ability to swim 10 meters towing another person." Simple statement of requirements for the job. There are other legitimate requirements, read, write, speak and understand English (for instance), lift XX kg, and so forth.
Kulula will soon find themselves running remedial swimming exercises if they cannot get enough staff, and applicants will know what is required before they start (and can go learn to swim in advance) - fair play all around.
As to this being "cultural" (previous poster mentioned that Africans and Asians are not into swimming), this may be a survival mechanism. The "enthusiastic swimmers" in some of these places may wind up eaten by crocodiles or contracting various loathsome water-borne diseases, and thus quickly remove themselves from the gene pool (sorry). There are places where you DON'T want to go into the water - period - so if going into the water is that dangerous, where's the motivation in learning to swim other than to be able to get out of it as quickly as possible?
Simple situation, handled appallingly poorly.
Best Regards
Echo Mike
(Who can just barely swim, but I cannot fly at all, so I have to use an airplane to help me, then it works quite well, thank you.)
Swimming ability is a legitimate part of cabin crew qualifications, for reasons stated above. Olympic ability isn't required, but it would be nice if the cabin crew were an asset instead of a liability in case of need. This statement is not emotionally charged or race-biased (or it shouldn't be).
Wrong way: "Blacks can't swim." Result - uproar, hatred, discontent, lawsuits.
Better way: "Candidates shall be able to demonstrate ability to swim 10 meters towing another person." Simple statement of requirements for the job. There are other legitimate requirements, read, write, speak and understand English (for instance), lift XX kg, and so forth.
Kulula will soon find themselves running remedial swimming exercises if they cannot get enough staff, and applicants will know what is required before they start (and can go learn to swim in advance) - fair play all around.
As to this being "cultural" (previous poster mentioned that Africans and Asians are not into swimming), this may be a survival mechanism. The "enthusiastic swimmers" in some of these places may wind up eaten by crocodiles or contracting various loathsome water-borne diseases, and thus quickly remove themselves from the gene pool (sorry). There are places where you DON'T want to go into the water - period - so if going into the water is that dangerous, where's the motivation in learning to swim other than to be able to get out of it as quickly as possible?
Simple situation, handled appallingly poorly.
Best Regards
Echo Mike
(Who can just barely swim, but I cannot fly at all, so I have to use an airplane to help me, then it works quite well, thank you.)
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Afri, 5 April 2006:
Afri, 20 Nov 2007:
Well Checked the Sunday times and Comair is hiring cadets from the previously disadvantaged groups. Well Done Comair.
The fine should be in the hundreds of millions enough to drive these racists pigs out of business.
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Fact of the matter Comair has broken the law, It's called the Employment Equity Act. It seems to me Comair will be breaking the law if they do employ these candidates. For wishing the goverment impose a huge fine that can bankrupt the company and in so doing render jobless some fellow black people seems shortsighted to me.
Last edited by Trawler; 20th Nov 2007 at 14:43.
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No one has yet come up and quoted any Comair person as saying what has been alleged. This is just a good example of spin, by the Govt (owners of some competition) , by playing the race card, they know they can get the usual soap box warriors on the bandwagon, and help tint the 'public' perception.
remember also what sells newspapers.
remember also what sells newspapers.
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To say "blacks cannot swim" Absolutly wrong, we had a lad from Sierra Leone, couldn't swim, but after a year of training and practice he was up to compete with the white boys, got an award for his dedication and perseverance.
I heard a story once that blacks are WORSE SWIMMERS becasue they have thicker skulls, hence the need to use more energy to keep heads above water. I thought this was the usual racist bull as was the case in a report conduted by the US goverment as to why African Americans are unsuitable ase pilots due to the ze of blood vessles in the head and difficulty in compensating for preasure differential.
Now the US stuy was bull, it pertained to the Tuskagee airmen, who have demonstarted their skill and hard work, and who I have had the honour of meeting personally.
On the other hand it has been prooven that Africans do have thicker bone structure in the skull, hence why I have seen an African fall off a Dump truck and get up and run after it and get on again, a Drop that would have felled manny of us white boys.
Why do I bring this up? Well simple really. The African needs to exert more of his energy to raise his head for a breath. Hence the limited amount of African olympic swimmers. They exell in other sports and in many factors due to enviormental and physical conditions are stronger and more hardy than us white boys. Ever seen a picture of the front line defence of an American Football team? (American Rugby for those you are un cultured) they are mostly black. They are big tough and mean and there is no way I would get between them. Just look at the latest sports ilustrated and you will see a great pic of the New York Giants pulverising a poor line man.
Now racial and physical elemts aside. I would like (in the extreme unlikly event of a ditiching in wich the before mentioned Ethiopian was involved. All cudos to the Captain, I think it has been the one and only and most sucessfull landing of a jet in history on water in given circumstances) That the crew be able to assist in a proper maner not below the standard of a life guard whilst in the water.
Race is not an issue, training is. The Captain of said flight was an African (see previous post on Africans Flying in Apartheid) Training is the key, qualified personel will make the diffrence. It doesn't happen often but once in a blue moon you will need that training, and I think in all fairness all flight deck crew should meet the same standard, after all once in the water doggy padeling around your wrecked plane you are still the Captain, the man in charge and the man who is responsible for all those who were on board.
The Captain is the end all of responsibility, he must be able to swim, load, fuel, serve tea and coffee. Becasause we all know at the end of the day the buck stops with us and we are the one's that have to sort out the Daily trials and dilemas be it due to a screw up on the ground or something going wrong in flight.
Lead By Example
I heard a story once that blacks are WORSE SWIMMERS becasue they have thicker skulls, hence the need to use more energy to keep heads above water. I thought this was the usual racist bull as was the case in a report conduted by the US goverment as to why African Americans are unsuitable ase pilots due to the ze of blood vessles in the head and difficulty in compensating for preasure differential.
Now the US stuy was bull, it pertained to the Tuskagee airmen, who have demonstarted their skill and hard work, and who I have had the honour of meeting personally.
On the other hand it has been prooven that Africans do have thicker bone structure in the skull, hence why I have seen an African fall off a Dump truck and get up and run after it and get on again, a Drop that would have felled manny of us white boys.
Why do I bring this up? Well simple really. The African needs to exert more of his energy to raise his head for a breath. Hence the limited amount of African olympic swimmers. They exell in other sports and in many factors due to enviormental and physical conditions are stronger and more hardy than us white boys. Ever seen a picture of the front line defence of an American Football team? (American Rugby for those you are un cultured) they are mostly black. They are big tough and mean and there is no way I would get between them. Just look at the latest sports ilustrated and you will see a great pic of the New York Giants pulverising a poor line man.
Now racial and physical elemts aside. I would like (in the extreme unlikly event of a ditiching in wich the before mentioned Ethiopian was involved. All cudos to the Captain, I think it has been the one and only and most sucessfull landing of a jet in history on water in given circumstances) That the crew be able to assist in a proper maner not below the standard of a life guard whilst in the water.
Race is not an issue, training is. The Captain of said flight was an African (see previous post on Africans Flying in Apartheid) Training is the key, qualified personel will make the diffrence. It doesn't happen often but once in a blue moon you will need that training, and I think in all fairness all flight deck crew should meet the same standard, after all once in the water doggy padeling around your wrecked plane you are still the Captain, the man in charge and the man who is responsible for all those who were on board.
The Captain is the end all of responsibility, he must be able to swim, load, fuel, serve tea and coffee. Becasause we all know at the end of the day the buck stops with us and we are the one's that have to sort out the Daily trials and dilemas be it due to a screw up on the ground or something going wrong in flight.
Lead By Example
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Dont understand the issue.
South Africa's economy is booming with some of the richest people in the country now black, and massive businesses now in the hands of black people.
To my simple mind all they have to do is launch a few wholly black owned airlines, employ all and only black crews and personnel, and set and maintain only the highest standards of service and efficiency (and price of course) and shut down those intransigent ones like Comair through fair competition and exceptional service levels.
After all South Africa has its national airline as a shining example of what its black population and business people are capable of, they can surely do that also with any similar private venture.
My humble advice is to stop bickering and get on with the job!
South Africa's economy is booming with some of the richest people in the country now black, and massive businesses now in the hands of black people.
To my simple mind all they have to do is launch a few wholly black owned airlines, employ all and only black crews and personnel, and set and maintain only the highest standards of service and efficiency (and price of course) and shut down those intransigent ones like Comair through fair competition and exceptional service levels.
After all South Africa has its national airline as a shining example of what its black population and business people are capable of, they can surely do that also with any similar private venture.
My humble advice is to stop bickering and get on with the job!
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When I read this topic - the first one I burst out laughing!!!
It flies directly into the face of all our feeble attempts to try and avoid the predjudices which we each have of one another... we all have them - black and white but for goodness sakes, admit it!!!
Blacks Cant Swim, Whites cant dance, taxi drivers cant drive, indians always want to bargain, women cant read maps, PILOTS ARE WHINGERS
..... Boooooooo Frikkkkkkinnnn Hoooo.
Its just helluva funny...
: Maybe because there is a certain amount of truth in the comment... 
If its the law, its the law - the danger lies in categorising it by race group - I doubt that Kulula really said that anyway... but come on... why the big issue... both black and white should look at this comment and pi$$ themselves laughing at the "refreshing" comments. Political correctness if a crock - where has it got us?
Fact is, whites cant dance aswell as blacks, taxi drivers cant drive, indians are traders and do bargain, and hey, maybe pilots do whine?
Can blacks swim... well, some can, but then theres always the exception, but can they are a group call themselves swimmers....
Hmmmmm... let me think about it while I put my shirt over my big hairy back, grab my back of boerie, slip my comb into my sock and pour myself a brandy and coke... all the while watching over my oversized Toyota Hilux bakkie.... - do you know from what origin I am - you may be right if you said I hail from Britain!!!
It flies directly into the face of all our feeble attempts to try and avoid the predjudices which we each have of one another... we all have them - black and white but for goodness sakes, admit it!!!
Blacks Cant Swim, Whites cant dance, taxi drivers cant drive, indians always want to bargain, women cant read maps, PILOTS ARE WHINGERS
..... Boooooooo Frikkkkkkinnnn Hoooo. Its just helluva funny...
: Maybe because there is a certain amount of truth in the comment... If its the law, its the law - the danger lies in categorising it by race group - I doubt that Kulula really said that anyway... but come on... why the big issue... both black and white should look at this comment and pi$$ themselves laughing at the "refreshing" comments. Political correctness if a crock - where has it got us?
Fact is, whites cant dance aswell as blacks, taxi drivers cant drive, indians are traders and do bargain, and hey, maybe pilots do whine?
Can blacks swim... well, some can, but then theres always the exception, but can they are a group call themselves swimmers....
Hmmmmm... let me think about it while I put my shirt over my big hairy back, grab my back of boerie, slip my comb into my sock and pour myself a brandy and coke... all the while watching over my oversized Toyota Hilux bakkie.... - do you know from what origin I am - you may be right if you said I hail from Britain!!!
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Warlock2000,
"CONGRATULATIONS ! Although spelling and grammar are obviously not a strong point; instructor has an R between the 1st T and the U, and Europe has a Capital E"
I really don't think Pprune is an english class network.
If you intend to spend your time correcting errors, then i suggest you look elsewhere for that, not here mate!
The facts speak for themselves here, comments made were "politically incorrect" whether you agree with such a deduction or not!
Somethings, though true, can be sometimes taken out of context and this happens to be a typical example.
Judging by your tone and disposition, i gather that you're quite unhappy that the comments in response don't go down well with you, here's news mate?!
Live with it!
Everyone is entitled to an opinion here and that includes you and i.
"CONGRATULATIONS ! Although spelling and grammar are obviously not a strong point; instructor has an R between the 1st T and the U, and Europe has a Capital E"
I really don't think Pprune is an english class network.
If you intend to spend your time correcting errors, then i suggest you look elsewhere for that, not here mate!
The facts speak for themselves here, comments made were "politically incorrect" whether you agree with such a deduction or not!
Somethings, though true, can be sometimes taken out of context and this happens to be a typical example.
Judging by your tone and disposition, i gather that you're quite unhappy that the comments in response don't go down well with you, here's news mate?!
Live with it!
Everyone is entitled to an opinion here and that includes you and i.
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Yes, and these comments were made by the DEPT OF LABOUR for gods sake, not by Comair.
Very easy to take the legislation requiring crew to swim and collating it with the fact that the Govt (and owner of the opposition that is being killed by comair) deems them not to have the correct EE profile.
Cant you see that this is all cock-waving and posturing by a group (govt) under pressure from the free market economy that is supposed to be aviation in SA.
FFS people, you know when politicians are lying - because their lips are moving.
Very easy to take the legislation requiring crew to swim and collating it with the fact that the Govt (and owner of the opposition that is being killed by comair) deems them not to have the correct EE profile.
Cant you see that this is all cock-waving and posturing by a group (govt) under pressure from the free market economy that is supposed to be aviation in SA.
FFS people, you know when politicians are lying - because their lips are moving.