Unprofessional to use PPRUNE?
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Management pilot 411A,
That can only make pilots more qualified 
Having said this, perhaps it's best if the pilots don't have much to say about future planning, as many of these same pilots have gone through a couple of wives already....
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Management pilot 411A said
Then don't expect loyalty, or professionalism towards the company.
And then they wonder why the pilots are applying everywhere and elsewhere.
What about if the manager is also on divorce 2 or 3 or even 4, what does this mean w.r.t. your statement.
Pilots are considered to be a professional employee and thus should be treated with the same dignity and professionalism and payed accordingly to their professional status, if your statement "Management pilot 411A" is anything to go by why not employ monkeys and pay them peanuts, then you will not have to call them "professional pilots" and you can just refer to them as "slaves"
Generally speaking....airline managements don't give a darn what pilots think...they are paid to drive the bus, then go home.
and I really don't care what the pilots think, as long as they do the job for which they are paid.
Having said this, perhaps it's best if the pilots don't have much to say about future planning, as many of these same pilots have gone through a couple of wives already....
Pilots are considered to be a professional employee and thus should be treated with the same dignity and professionalism and payed accordingly to their professional status, if your statement "Management pilot 411A" is anything to go by why not employ monkeys and pay them peanuts, then you will not have to call them "professional pilots" and you can just refer to them as "slaves"
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Sorry to say, line-driver, you appear to be thinking like a young inexperienced co-pilot...not especially bright.
The few pilots we have are paid quite nicely and for their professional ability, however they are most definitely not expected to join the executive suite agenda any time soon.
That area is reserved for the folks that have been directly hired by the shareholders (only two, actually) to run the company.
It would appear that a few pilots want to have their oar into every area of the pond, yet have likely never heard of the old saying...too many cooks spoil the broth....
The few pilots we have are paid quite nicely and for their professional ability, however they are most definitely not expected to join the executive suite agenda any time soon.
That area is reserved for the folks that have been directly hired by the shareholders (only two, actually) to run the company.
It would appear that a few pilots want to have their oar into every area of the pond, yet have likely never heard of the old saying...too many cooks spoil the broth....
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Send all of management on a weekend team building exercise and see if the airline comes to a grinding halt........
Now do the same with all the pilots!
Face it being management, sucks! We are what everyone aspire to be!
Pilots only allow management in the airline so they can do the paperwork - we don't need you, you need US!
Now do the same with all the pilots!
Face it being management, sucks! We are what everyone aspire to be!
Pilots only allow management in the airline so they can do the paperwork - we don't need you, you need US!
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PLACIDO..... What a ridiculous comment 
The airline would come to a halt without pilots and management... one cannot run without the other, and I am sure you know that but perhaps for the sake of the argument it suits your cause to blow hot air up your @$$... make comments like this and I am certain that any manager would enjoy showing just how dispensable you are! I am sure the engineer who manages to keep your priviledged butt in the air would also like to inform you of what he thinks of this comment...
The market is turning, the divide will narrow, due to the increased leverage pilots are having. Then we might see the likes of Pprune become a little less relevant as pilots will be able/willing to speak their minds without fear of backlash. Swings and roundabouts.
An airline, like any business is dependant on all stakeholders, without which it would fail. Business 101!
As an aside...
IMHO the only thing more unprofessional about using Pprune is running an organisation where the staff feel unable to comment directly about their working conditions... perhaps this management should take into account, and perhaps this is indicative of the industry as a whole. Dunno...
The airline would come to a halt without pilots and management... one cannot run without the other, and I am sure you know that but perhaps for the sake of the argument it suits your cause to blow hot air up your @$$... make comments like this and I am certain that any manager would enjoy showing just how dispensable you are! I am sure the engineer who manages to keep your priviledged butt in the air would also like to inform you of what he thinks of this comment...
The market is turning, the divide will narrow, due to the increased leverage pilots are having. Then we might see the likes of Pprune become a little less relevant as pilots will be able/willing to speak their minds without fear of backlash. Swings and roundabouts.
An airline, like any business is dependant on all stakeholders, without which it would fail. Business 101!
As an aside...
IMHO the only thing more unprofessional about using Pprune is running an organisation where the staff feel unable to comment directly about their working conditions... perhaps this management should take into account, and perhaps this is indicative of the industry as a whole. Dunno...
Line-driver I doubt that management do EXPECT loyalty from pilots. If they did they would be disappointed most of the time. Pilots are driven by Type ratings and T's and C's to a greater degree than many other professions I know. In part this is due to the uncertainty of the pilots part of the business with regard to medicals, aircraft fleets, companies going belly up etc........
Pilots as professional people? Yup they are, at least they'd better be cos they are a danger otherwise.
Pilots as loyal people? No. They will go to the highest bidder or best route structure or most modern plane.
Pilots as professional people? Yup they are, at least they'd better be cos they are a danger otherwise.
Pilots as loyal people? No. They will go to the highest bidder or best route structure or most modern plane.
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This thread has gone off the rails, it was in response to a call by a manager to his pilots, to STOP making statements on Pprune as it was "unprofessional" and doing the pilot group only harm, and the unanswered question as to how dare the manager impose this on his pilots, as a form of sword over their heads when it comes to resolving issues of conditions of service, salary etc.
The main reason that the pilots have turned to Pprune is the lack of action and the overall drop in living standards and lifestyle for the pilots working for this company, and managements "flippant" attitude that they have no right to complain as they are all expendable.
It is merely a vent of frustrations and anger and fatigue.
The comments made by 411A only reinforce this perceived attitude of management towards their pilots, and does nothing for open discussions as to the problems and if possible the resolutions to these, it only makes everybody more negative and then the much talked about "open door policy" to the managements offices as good as shut and bolted, which it currently is, or so it is perceived.
And the result is a general bolting towards the door by the pilots, as no-one wants to work under these conditions anymore.
The main reason that the pilots have turned to Pprune is the lack of action and the overall drop in living standards and lifestyle for the pilots working for this company, and managements "flippant" attitude that they have no right to complain as they are all expendable.
It is merely a vent of frustrations and anger and fatigue.
The comments made by 411A only reinforce this perceived attitude of management towards their pilots, and does nothing for open discussions as to the problems and if possible the resolutions to these, it only makes everybody more negative and then the much talked about "open door policy" to the managements offices as good as shut and bolted, which it currently is, or so it is perceived.
And the result is a general bolting towards the door by the pilots, as no-one wants to work under these conditions anymore.
Line-driver you make good points, however much of the poor management that you complain about is by people who started off as line pilots and climbed the ladder (brown nosed the Boss?). Why do they forget their roots so readily?
As a forum encouraging discussion this site has some strong benefits in the way it allows subjects that might otherwise remain unspoken to see light of day. It also has some very strong disbenefits in that the anonymity that allows these subjects to be raised also allows for disinformation to be freely posted.
There are people on here who post with what appears to be absolute knowledge...................... sometimes you actually know enough of the facts to recognise the utter bullsh!t for what it is, but there will always be plenty willing to believe the bull.
Personal vendettas and company rivalries all contribute to mis-information on here, hence the warning note to be careful what you believe.
If a company is taking everything written on here so seriously it is banning people from reading the posts, then I suggest there is a more serious problem within that company.
As a forum encouraging discussion this site has some strong benefits in the way it allows subjects that might otherwise remain unspoken to see light of day. It also has some very strong disbenefits in that the anonymity that allows these subjects to be raised also allows for disinformation to be freely posted.
There are people on here who post with what appears to be absolute knowledge...................... sometimes you actually know enough of the facts to recognise the utter bullsh!t for what it is, but there will always be plenty willing to believe the bull.
Personal vendettas and company rivalries all contribute to mis-information on here, hence the warning note to be careful what you believe.
If a company is taking everything written on here so seriously it is banning people from reading the posts, then I suggest there is a more serious problem within that company.
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Pilots...needed to fly the aeroplanes.
Ground engineers...needed to maintain the aeroplanes.
Cabin crew...needed to sling the hash/drinks, and for safety (sometimes).
That leaves management, and the folks therein, to keep these folks in line, headed in the right direction, and to make sure they are paid accordingly.
The absolute most important person in management (with a passenger airline) is the marketing manager, as he/she is the one that keeps backsides in seats, and without those backsides...there is no need for pilots, ground engineers or cabin crew.
Sir Freddie Laker knew this very well, and that is why his marketing manager (for over twenty five years, the same guy) was the number two guy in the organisation, reporting to absolutely no one except Sir Freddie.
Sir Freddie was also quite unique amongst airline CEO's...his door was always open to his employees.
Same for his marketing manager.
So, pilots...get off your high horse.
You are only one small cog is a rather large wheel.
Them's the facts.
As a pilot, I learned this a very long time ago.
Sadly, many pilots never do.
Ground engineers...needed to maintain the aeroplanes.
Cabin crew...needed to sling the hash/drinks, and for safety (sometimes).
That leaves management, and the folks therein, to keep these folks in line, headed in the right direction, and to make sure they are paid accordingly.
The absolute most important person in management (with a passenger airline) is the marketing manager, as he/she is the one that keeps backsides in seats, and without those backsides...there is no need for pilots, ground engineers or cabin crew.
Sir Freddie Laker knew this very well, and that is why his marketing manager (for over twenty five years, the same guy) was the number two guy in the organisation, reporting to absolutely no one except Sir Freddie.
Sir Freddie was also quite unique amongst airline CEO's...his door was always open to his employees.
Same for his marketing manager.
So, pilots...get off your high horse.
You are only one small cog is a rather large wheel.
Them's the facts.
As a pilot, I learned this a very long time ago.
Sadly, many pilots never do.
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The UN requirements for certain levels of experience among contract crews may very well put a spanner in the works here. Loss of those crews to the airlines would leave a contract company firmly in the lurch, unless they send someone who doesn't meet the requirements, and thereby break the terms of the contract.
We all know they'd never do that, would they...?
We all know they'd never do that, would they...?
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Sir Freddie Laker knew this very well, and that is why his marketing manager (for over twenty five years, the same guy) was the number two guy in the organisation, reporting to absolutely no one except Sir Freddie.
The late Sir Freddie Laker unveiled his new airline - to be called Laker Airways - to the press in February 1966
The company operated its last flight on February 6, 1982, the day after it spectacularly went bankrupt.
Marketing was only one thing which helps Laker to be successful for so long. Among some of the others were good engineering practice, low baggage allowance so more fuel could be carry. However he was under capitalize and some of his business practices were too far ahead of their time. But ultimately, this meant that management in this comopany did not head in the right direction and everyone lost his job. Maybe not a too good example.
Prune is good so some pilots can express themselves with no fear of retribution. I wish we had it when I was still flying. If some things are said which are not truth, managements will know it to be thus, but if what is says is true it may bring some matters needing sorting to attention of managements.
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Laker...long before Laker Airways
16 Years, non?
Of course you are forgetting British United, which Laker headed for quite some time...12 years as I recall.
Laker came undone for one reason only...TWA/PanAmerican/BritishAirways all conspired to force McDonnelDouglas to cancel his his DC10 leases, with the threat that if McDonnelDouglas did not, none of the three would ever purchase an airplane from them again.
Laker was cleaning the other airlines clocks on the North Atlantic, so of course he had to go.
It all came out in the litigation Laker persued, and Sir Freddie collected a handsome sum in the courts...and laughed all the way to the bank.
Pilots may well think they are the top dogs in an airline...sorry, not so.
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411A:
Doctors and nurses are the heart and soul of a hospital.
Rugby players are what a rugby company is about.
Chefs are essential in a good restaurant.
For over 30 years people have been chipping away at the status of the airline pilot, to make them less than what they are. Why?
Some pilots, turned management, have actually started to believe this themselves...............
It will be an uphill battle to convince everyone of the actual facts.
Beancounters only see value in terms of money. If they pay a lot for their aircrew, they value them more.
Pilots are under paid, and therefore undervalued.
But my cristal ball says that market forces will sort this out for the pilots in the near future!
Doctors and nurses are the heart and soul of a hospital.
Rugby players are what a rugby company is about.
Chefs are essential in a good restaurant.
For over 30 years people have been chipping away at the status of the airline pilot, to make them less than what they are. Why?
Some pilots, turned management, have actually started to believe this themselves...............
It will be an uphill battle to convince everyone of the actual facts.
Beancounters only see value in terms of money. If they pay a lot for their aircrew, they value them more.
Pilots are under paid, and therefore undervalued.
But my cristal ball says that market forces will sort this out for the pilots in the near future!
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Pilots are under paid, and therefore undervalued.
But my cristal ball says that market forces will sort this out for the pilots in the near future!
But my cristal ball says that market forces will sort this out for the pilots in the near future!
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When the Pilots Stop, the Company Stops
411,
BUA 12 years? Not quite. Sir Freddie set up Channel air Bridge in 1954 and became the MD of British United in 1960 after it was acquired by BUA in 1960.
The real reason for the downfall of Laker was that it was grossly undercapitalised and the cancellation of the DC10 leases (which was instigated by BCal) was the straw which broke the camel's back. The compensation he was awarded after the 'predatory pricing' court case scarcely left Sir freddie laughing all the way to the bank. Laker went down with losses of £270 million. His out of court settlements amounted to around $50 million and £8 million.
Here's another funny thing I noticed. When the managers in my company go off on vacation, most of the line staff don't even know about it and the company keeps on functioning normally. Some years ago I worked for a company where over 50% of the pilots went on vacation all at the same time (yes, a strike). Funnily enough most everyone noticed that as the operation pretty much ground to a halt. Seems the pilots not being available for work had a far more dramatic and immediate impact than the management not being around
BUA 12 years? Not quite. Sir Freddie set up Channel air Bridge in 1954 and became the MD of British United in 1960 after it was acquired by BUA in 1960.
The real reason for the downfall of Laker was that it was grossly undercapitalised and the cancellation of the DC10 leases (which was instigated by BCal) was the straw which broke the camel's back. The compensation he was awarded after the 'predatory pricing' court case scarcely left Sir freddie laughing all the way to the bank. Laker went down with losses of £270 million. His out of court settlements amounted to around $50 million and £8 million.
Here's another funny thing I noticed. When the managers in my company go off on vacation, most of the line staff don't even know about it and the company keeps on functioning normally. Some years ago I worked for a company where over 50% of the pilots went on vacation all at the same time (yes, a strike). Funnily enough most everyone noticed that as the operation pretty much ground to a halt. Seems the pilots not being available for work had a far more dramatic and immediate impact than the management not being around
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Some years ago I worked for a company where over 50% of the pilots went on vacation all at the same time (yes, a strike).
Frank Lorenzo proved this quite well with Continental, and funny enough, some of the 'striking' pilots came crawling back...and later were 'accepted' into ALPA.
Management always wins.
Bud Maytag also proved this with the old National Airlines.
The pilots there never stood a chance...Maytag always prevailed, and made a handsome profit selling to PanAmerican.
Yes, indeed, management always prevails.
Don't believe?
Ask the 49ers at CX.
Some (most) pilots are rather short-sighted.
OTOH, if the marketing manager (and his department) are not up to snuff, no passengers to carry...no pilots required.
Simple really.
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411A,
How little you know. In the case of the strike I'm talking about it took the company many years to recover. there were plenty of other jobs and none of the pilots ever wanted to return - most of them moved into better-paying jobs with that company's competitors or worked overseas.
I'd like to see your photographs of the pilots you say were crawling back - were they all drunk?
It's managers like you who will mean that pilots will continue to post on forums like this. When you talk of Bud maytag you're referring to events which happened in the 1960s. The world, unlike you, has moved on since then. If crap managers cause an airline to fail, the business is usually picked up by another company, who will have need of more pilots - but no such luck for the failed managers.
The only thing which is simple here is your antediluvian view of management which is what makes people like me distrust most airline managements to the point where old concepts like company loyalty have now been replaced by a loyalty which extends only as far as the next pay check. Your smug self-satisfaction is positively nauseating
How little you know. In the case of the strike I'm talking about it took the company many years to recover. there were plenty of other jobs and none of the pilots ever wanted to return - most of them moved into better-paying jobs with that company's competitors or worked overseas.
I'd like to see your photographs of the pilots you say were crawling back - were they all drunk?
It's managers like you who will mean that pilots will continue to post on forums like this. When you talk of Bud maytag you're referring to events which happened in the 1960s. The world, unlike you, has moved on since then. If crap managers cause an airline to fail, the business is usually picked up by another company, who will have need of more pilots - but no such luck for the failed managers.The only thing which is simple here is your antediluvian view of management which is what makes people like me distrust most airline managements to the point where old concepts like company loyalty have now been replaced by a loyalty which extends only as far as the next pay check. Your smug self-satisfaction is positively nauseating
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It's managers like you who will mean that pilots will continue to post on forums like this. When you talk of Bud maytag you're referring to events which happened in the 1960s. The world, unlike you, has moved on since then. If crap managers cause an airline to fail, the business is usually picked up by another company, who will have need of more pilots - but no such luck for the failed managers.
These forums are certainly useful when they point out shady operators (new cargo airline in Cyprus, now a sticky in the freight fourm) to forewarn pilots of these airlines no-pay practices, but just look at the present thread/poll about FD visits in R&N...pilots can vent all they like, but it is not going to change anything.
Same for airline managements...nothing pilots can do about them, except walk out the door.
Management has a duty to shareholders, and other than paying on time the agreed wage, and maintaining the airplanes reasonably, not much further duty to pilots....like it or not, and I fully expect most won't.
Have the days since Bud Maytag changed?
Only the calendar...otherwise much the same.
Just ask the ex-49 at CX.
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Management has a duty to shareholders
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Weeeellll, I keep management clearly in mind when deciding to cruise at .73 or .78 Were they nice, did they at least try a teensy-weensy little bit? No? Then set speed to 'Ludicrous', the buffet margin limit it is....feel the burn! (said only partially tongue in cheek!)
Were they nice, did they at least try a teensy-weensy little bit? No? Then set speed to 'Ludicrous', the buffet margin limit it is....feel the burn! (said only partially tongue in cheek!)